Give this your best shot
- Thread starter Hacker
- Start date
S
Sean_Mcr
Guest
There's too much tree, but i wouldn't crop it as i don't crop my images, i'd shoot again as the possibilities are endless in the field, not so at a PC.
- Messages
- 4,463
- Name
- Barry
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Great if you can go back! But sometimes you only get one chance at things.
If a client wants a particular look/feel/crop, what do you do? Do you say, "I don't crop my images"? Yet, in reality, every time you hold your camera to your eye you're performing a crop! You step back, you move forward. Each, and every, time you are achieving a crop. Your camera has a far different, narrower field of view than your eye so your are cropping......
I ask this question too. If you're not satisfied with a shot using a particular lens, do you change it for one with a different focal length? If so you are cropping. Even if you use that same lens all day then return with a different one on another day you have CROPPED!
Life and technology moves, sometimes a little too fast. But if we were all to take a luddite approach to things none of us would be posting digital images on a forum server remotely from from each of us (I assume it's not in Marcel's or anybody elses' living room).
Horses for courses --- pardon the pun!
- Messages
- 3,238
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Here you go, I liked the height in many ways as it displayed the power of nature over the horse, which in itself is all powerful.
I have however tried to 'reigh' it into a hacker type stock shot.
I have however tried to 'reigh' it into a hacker type stock shot.
OP
Hacker
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 7,625
- Name
- Colin
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Some interesting edits there, thanks for the effort. This shot was never intended for the customer, the horse and rider were in a warm up area at the end of the arena and I thought it might make an interesting shot with the expanse of trees behind, it might look better in the autumn when the leaves turn.
S
Sean_Mcr
Guest
I fill the frame with what i want in it, in camera. Sometimes i miss, but it just reminds me to think more. It's been the greatest aid to me
We've spoken about Bresson before you and i, and he never cropped his images not ever.
Don McCullin, said of Cartier-Bresson, "I think I speak for every photographer and especially Magnum photographers, when I say that Henri really introduced the concept of perfect composition into our thinking. He was the first to teach us to compose within the specific shape of the frame and to utilize the very nature of that camera and format."
I think it's worthy advice, it's one i follow, i'm not asking others to follow it.
H
Hoodi
Guest
I think what people are getting at here is cropping to change the aspect ratio, chuckles.
I do my damdest to avoid cropping & changing the aspect ratio in the process - put simply, it's inconvenient, in that it makes printing, framing, selling etc. photos much more of a hassle.
That isn't to say I'm against cropping entirely - I often think that if done well it can aid an image - and I'm particularly fond of well composed square format images.
The image - I can't really see it properly, as I'm on the laptop which has a rubbish & low resolution monitor... That aside, I really like the shot - I'll reserve further judgement till I can see it on a proper monitor!
I do my damdest to avoid cropping & changing the aspect ratio in the process - put simply, it's inconvenient, in that it makes printing, framing, selling etc. photos much more of a hassle.
That isn't to say I'm against cropping entirely - I often think that if done well it can aid an image - and I'm particularly fond of well composed square format images.
The image - I can't really see it properly, as I'm on the laptop which has a rubbish & low resolution monitor... That aside, I really like the shot - I'll reserve further judgement till I can see it on a proper monitor!
S
Sean_Mcr
Guest
I do not crop ever, and if i don't get what i want i learn from it, i'll show it and i move on. I have faith in my images and myself. I'm not afraid to leave things in that others seem to be troubled by, so often resulting in almost a crop of 30% sometimes even half. To be that far off honestly confuses me.
Sums up how i feel
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/columns/sm-02-10-27.shtml
S
Sean_Mcr
Guest
Well it certainly can save on hassle, but the main reason i do it is, because it has taught me a great deal about composition it's also an ideology that i very much agree with. I'm not asking others to agree with it, but i stand by and fall by it.
Photography for me, is like breathing, i'm sure that others feel the same. The zen like nature of capturing something can't come close to sitting at a pc wishing what might have been
With the greatest respect to the OP i could never contemplate asking somebody else what they would do with one of my images, i take them on my terms. I haven't said the image is a bad image, it's not an image i'd take. But it's not my image, not my vision
- Messages
- 850
- Name
- Dave
- Edit My Images
- No
I think a prime teaches composition better than not cropping, but both together is a powerful discipline. I don't care what anyone else does and Seans shots are always worth a look so he can do what he wants ;-) It's like a lot of things tho' ... once you get to a certain level you can leave the rules behind. To me, the fact that I can visualise a good composition then it's the final framing what counts, not just the viewfinder framing. I often shoot knowing what I want from a shot and knowing that I will crop later. Depends on your subject matter. Some of my shots are so focused on detail that if I took without option to crop I wouldn't even get the lens to focus that close.
dod
TPer Emeritus
- Messages
- 16,678
- Name
- Ebenezer McScrooge III
- Edit My Images
- Yes
To be honest I'd leave it absolutely untouched.
I tried something similar a couple of weeks ago to get a different feel to some of the shots. The background didn't work nearly as well as that though.
- Messages
- 7,987
- Name
- Brian
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I looked at this thread when it was first posted , had a play with the image then decided that all I personaly would do is boost the contrast 10% and print it out as a A2 poster.
I dip back into the thread to see what people what have come up with to find it has veered off course into a debate on cropping.
I find having a blinkered approach to photography whether it's never change the aspect ratio or never use a zoom to be a rather strange fixation in something which people regard as an art form.
This is a rather extreme example but if this shot occured in 'real life' would people have left it at 4:3 or left it with large borders because they couldn't move closer to get 'the ideal composition' ?
eg :
Ps. Apologies to the OP for the thread hijack but it would be quite interesting if this discussion was moved to GD
I dip back into the thread to see what people what have come up with to find it has veered off course into a debate on cropping.
I find having a blinkered approach to photography whether it's never change the aspect ratio or never use a zoom to be a rather strange fixation in something which people regard as an art form.
This is a rather extreme example but if this shot occured in 'real life' would people have left it at 4:3 or left it with large borders because they couldn't move closer to get 'the ideal composition' ?
eg :
Ps. Apologies to the OP for the thread hijack but it would be quite interesting if this discussion was moved to GD
S
Sean_Mcr
Guest
You could apply that to any shot, be it one person or ten people to be honest
You shoot in a style that suits you, i shoot in a certain way, i know myself and my style. I know the conditions i shoot in, i know how i operate. I choose my tools accordingly, there's no mystery to it
Bresson must have been strange & blinkered as he operated that way for 40 years as did/do most magnum photographers both past and present.
Robert Capa Co founder of Magnum once said "if your photos are not good enough, you're not close enough" he gave his life in that belief as did David Seymour who founded magnum with capa and Bresson.
Blinkered? i'd have to disagree, focused is the word i'd use.
I'm not trying to convince anybody that one way is better then another, i just like working that way, it changed everything.
But now, back to the actual shot. I think Hacker was happy enough with the exposure, it was the composition that concerned him. Once you're left with a 2D working environment there was only one way the shot was going and that was cropped down
There little scope to do anything else with it compositionally speaking. So the question i have is, what could we do that hacker could not do, given the lack of options.
Would i keep it or would i bin it? Well really that does not matter at all, as i would never have taken it, but that does not mean it's not worth taking or worth keeping. I don't believe i should or could convince him to keep it or trash it, i would hope he has the faith to stand by his image, even in the face of criticism, or trash it even if praised if he doesn't believe in it
I guess im saying that the answer is not to be found in others
You shoot in a style that suits you, i shoot in a certain way, i know myself and my style. I know the conditions i shoot in, i know how i operate. I choose my tools accordingly, there's no mystery to it
Bresson must have been strange & blinkered as he operated that way for 40 years as did/do most magnum photographers both past and present.
Robert Capa Co founder of Magnum once said "if your photos are not good enough, you're not close enough" he gave his life in that belief as did David Seymour who founded magnum with capa and Bresson.
Blinkered? i'd have to disagree, focused is the word i'd use.
I'm not trying to convince anybody that one way is better then another, i just like working that way, it changed everything.
But now, back to the actual shot. I think Hacker was happy enough with the exposure, it was the composition that concerned him. Once you're left with a 2D working environment there was only one way the shot was going and that was cropped down
There little scope to do anything else with it compositionally speaking. So the question i have is, what could we do that hacker could not do, given the lack of options.
Would i keep it or would i bin it? Well really that does not matter at all, as i would never have taken it, but that does not mean it's not worth taking or worth keeping. I don't believe i should or could convince him to keep it or trash it, i would hope he has the faith to stand by his image, even in the face of criticism, or trash it even if praised if he doesn't believe in it
I guess im saying that the answer is not to be found in others
- Messages
- 7,987
- Name
- Brian
- Edit My Images
- Yes
I think blinkered may have come across a bit strongly but then again may be it wasn't strong enough.
Everybody crops , even Cartier-Bresson did.
Every time you turn your camera from landscape to portrait you are doing a crop. Ok , you're not changing the physical area of the print but the image you are presenting to the viewer is changing from 4:3 to 3:4 ,this forces people to look at the image differently , not how they would/could have perceived it in dynamic life.
Anyway , you use your work methods and I'll use mine, life would loose it's excitement if we all did the same
Everybody crops , even Cartier-Bresson did.
Every time you turn your camera from landscape to portrait you are doing a crop. Ok , you're not changing the physical area of the print but the image you are presenting to the viewer is changing from 4:3 to 3:4 ,this forces people to look at the image differently , not how they would/could have perceived it in dynamic life.
Anyway , you use your work methods and I'll use mine, life would loose it's excitement if we all did the same
- Messages
- 4,463
- Name
- Barry
- Edit My Images
- Yes
Anyway, I always try to get right in camera 'cos that's the way I was brung up!
I use a 6x6 Mamiya as well, try getting one of those framed to every client's taste without cropping. Each to their own. Difficulty is remaining arty when sometimes objectivity is the brief......
Back to thread, I thought hacker was OK aout the trees (as regards to quantity) as he thinks it would be better with Autumnal colours.
I think it's a cracker of a shot - just needed a contrast boost IMHO.
I use a 6x6 Mamiya as well, try getting one of those framed to every client's taste without cropping. Each to their own. Difficulty is remaining arty when sometimes objectivity is the brief......
Back to thread, I thought hacker was OK aout the trees (as regards to quantity) as he thinks it would be better with Autumnal colours.
I think it's a cracker of a shot - just needed a contrast boost IMHO.
S
Sean_Mcr
Guest
I think blinkered may have come across a bit strongly but then again may be it wasn't strong enough.
Everybody crops , even Cartier-Bresson did.
Every time you turn your camera from landscape to portrait you are doing a crop. Ok , you're not changing the physical area of the print but the image you are presenting to the viewer is changing from 4:3 to 3:4 ,this forces people to look at the image differently , not how they would/could have perceived it in dynamic life.
Anyway , you use your work methods and I'll use mine, life would loose it's excitement if we all did the same
It's all about capturing the image in that moment in time, the decisive moment as he called it. As Don MCullan said He was the first to teach us to compose within the specific shape of the frame and to utilize the very nature of that camera and format."
Bresson never worked for the new york times again after they cropped one of his images even after he left strict with the desk not to crop the image under any circumstances. He had two stamps for his press shots, one said "Do not crop" the other said "The photo was nTo to be used outside of the context it was taken" He named each stamp Truth and Beauty
But i have not asked anybody to shoot that way, it's how i shoot and I've had to defend it, not for the first time, and i don't mind doing that as i believe in it.
You're in good company not believing that there is a need to stick to that belief
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/bresson.shtml
"This all makes obvious one of the conceits of Cartier Bresson's work. He never cropped an image. Every single photograph is a full 35mm frame just as it came from one of his Leicas"
"Within the confines of the 3:2 aspect ratio of the 35mm frame, and working spontaneously with millisecond timing, Cartier Bresson was able to not only see and capture the decisive moment, but to do so while neither excluding anything vital nor including anything extraneous"
But though he admires what Bresson could do, he was a genius. Michael Reichmann had this to say
"I Don't hold up this disciplined (if not indeed rigid) approach to framing as being virtuous. In fact I avoid it in my own work, believing that each image wants to have its own unique aspect ratio, regardless of what some manufacturer 75 years ago decided should be the relative height and width of the frame."
There has always been a difference of opinion on the working practice to how Bresson and most of the Magnum shooters shoot. It's a hard discipline and i am no magnum shooter, but i'm in the camp that thinks that there is some virtue to it
Thanks for the debate
Sean
- Messages
- 7,987
- Name
- Brian
- Edit My Images
- Yes
