Godox Ad200 Question

[cargo]

Hi All.

I bought the above a few months ago as a move up from using my speedlight. I have used it a few times and been happy enough with it. That said it did occur to me that although this is said to be nearly 3 times more powerful than my Canon 580 ex it doesnt feel like it is.
Again i'm a novice so maybe missing something obvious.
I'm attaching 2 images below which at the time I was not intending to take (I was doing something else) but it occurred to me that someone here maybe able to explain this to me.
So apologies for the under exposure and lack of sharpness. (rushed selfie) to demonstrate.

Both the images were taken on a tripod self timer. Flashes in softbox.
Am I right in thinking the AD200 should be a lot more brighter ?

Camera settings the same for each shutter 160th ap f9 iso 100 flashes in manual mode.

Image 1 was with the AD200 @ 1/4 +7

image 2 canon 580ex@ 1/4 +7 with wide angle diffuser down so 14mm zoom

 

[sk66]

Are you comparing the ad200 bare bulb in the same softbox?
TBH, I would have expected more difference, but you may be seeing the difference in more even fill (bare bulb) vs more of a hotspot (speedlight), and softbox design somewhat equalizing the results. When I adjust the exposure of the 580 so that the sleeves are the same brightness I end up near 1.5 stops of correction and the face is much brighter (which puts the AD about 2.5 x brighter and more even).

 

[HoppyUK]

Too many variables. And if you want to test total light output, then put them both on max or you're just comparing relative accuracy of the mid-range settings

AD200 is certainly more powerful than a 580EX, no doubt about that, but the best speedlights have a lot more punch than they're given credit for - especially by manufacturers of studio strobes. Lots of talk about 50-60Ws equivalent, but I'd put my 580EX at a bit over 100Ws equiv, alongside the best Nikon guns, and a bit brighter than pretty much all third-party guns, including those that claim a similar guide number.

Put them both in a double-diffuser softbox and shoot a plain wall at say 1.0m. Full power, widest zoom-head setting (without the wide-panel) and keep distance and angles exactly the same. If you can include something like a manikin head (or a pineapple is good anything really) in front to compare the shadows so much the better but a double-diffuser softbox will pretty much homogenise everything.

If you do that, you'll find the AD200 is about 0.7 stops brighter with the bare-bulb, and 1.2 stops brighter with the Fresnel head, though there may be a a couple of tenths hot-spotting with the latter as the AD200's Fresnel head projects quite a narrow beam - a lot narrower than the 35mm lens coverage Godox claims (more like 50-60mm) and even a double-diffuser softbox can only homogenise so much. In which case, you'll see that on the wall and can make a judgement.

 

[simonbarker]

As the others mention it's what you're doing with the light that matters, your speedlight is always stuck with a Fresnel lens while your AD200 should correctly fill most modifiers if they're not too big. Between the speedlight and your AD200 it's probably a 1-1.5 stop difference, so the result you got isn't too far off what I would have expected.

My advice is make use of the AD200 at what it excels at, a small, portable, modestly powerful head that lets you easily work with most modifiers (I don't like its Fresnel attachment) and plays well with the rest of the Godox system rather than something noticeably more powerful than a speedlight. If you really need a more powerful light then consider adding an AD600 as the difference becomes that much more obvious.

 

[cargo]

Are you comparing the ad200 bare bulb in the same softbox?

Hi Steven. Yes bare bulb in same box.

Too many variables

Hi Richard.
I'm not very technically minded so I was just looking at this from a sort of practical view. Which is, if one flash was supposed to be more powerful than the other then common sense says to me that at the same power one should be brighter than the other.
From your reply I am obviously looking at this the wrong way and that way of logic is not how these things work ?

Ok so I have a double diffused softbox also have a dolls head and a seamless grey paper hung up. Is that ok to use or is a light coloured wall better ?
You want me to set the dolls head up against the wall place softbox at 1 meter away @ roughly 45 to side of camera ? I'll use tripod for camera. Speedlight without panel down. Off memory zooms to 24 mm. Test Godox bare bulb both at full power.

I will do this when home form work tonight and update later today.

As the others mention it's what you're doing with the light that matters, your speedlight is always stuck with a Fresnel lens while your AD200 should correctly fill most modifiers

Hi Simon. I can see that in the above images that the Ad200 as covered me with more fill I am assuming that is as you say because it is filling the softbox in a better way. When I purchased the unit I thought that being able to use the ad200 at a lower power for the same output as when using the spedlight it would allow me to fire many shots, with very little recycle time. I do admit that the photos I bought the ad200 for worked out fine. So it has not let me down I was and am just confused as to why at the same power they look very similar.

Gaz

 

[Phil V]

To be fair @cargo whilst @HoppyUK is absolutely right about testing at full power to reduce variables, your test seems to agree with the just less than a stop he found.

 

[HoppyUK]

Hi Steven. Yes bare bulb in same box.

Hi Richard.
I'm not very technically minded so I was just looking at this from a sort of practical view. Which is, if one flash was supposed to be more powerful than the other then common sense says to me that at the same power one should be brighter than the other.
From your reply I am obviously looking at this the wrong way and that way of logic is not how these things work ?

Your logic is fine, but in practise intermediate power settings vary from very approximate at best (some studio heads) in terms of linear accuracy to spot on. Actually the two units you're comparing are pretty good but a third of a stop difference is quite likely and that will make a noticeable difference here.

Ok so I have a double diffused softbox also have a dolls head and a some seamless grey paper hung up. Is that ok to use or is a light coloured wall better ?
You want me to set the dolls head up against the wall place softbox at 1 meter away @ roughly 45 to side of camera ? I'll use tripod for camera. Speedlight without panel down. Off memory zooms to 24 mm. Test Godox bare bulb both at full power.

I will do this when home form work tonight and update later today.

Perfect. Grey is good, so you can clearly see how the brightness fades towards the edges. I would set up the softbox square to the wall with the camera off to one side, if that's what you mean. Put the doll close to the background as it's usually the shadow edges cast on the background that show differences most clearly though with a double-diffuser softbox they'll look very similar. Then swap to the Fresnel head and you'll get a bit more brightness.

You can also test the 580EX with the AD200 and Fresnel head directly, without a softbox. The critical factor is to adjust the 580's zoom head so that the light pool projected is exactly the same size/area though they may be a different shape. As I recall the AD200 has a hotter line across the centre so you'll have to make a judgement and results won't be exactly comparable in terms of total tight output.

Hi Simon. I can see that in the above images that the Ad200 as covered me with more fill I am assuming that is as you say because it is filling the softbox in a better way. When I purchased the unit I thought that being able to use the ad200 at lower power for the same output as I was using the spedlight at would allow me to fire many shots with very little recycle time. I do admit that the photos I bought it for to take it worked and did the job. So it has not let me down I was and am just confused as to why at the same power they look very similar.

Gaz

At the end of the day, you'll find the AD200 is substantially brighter regardless, with more power available when you need it. When adjusted to the same exposure in the same softbox it'll recycle way faster than the 580EX, night and day really, which is partly the higher power output and partly the more efficient lithium battery.

 

[cargo]

Perfect. Grey is good, so you can clearly see how the brightness fades towards the edges. I would set up the softbox square to the wall with the camera off to one side, if that's what you mean. Put the doll close to the background as it's usually the shadow edges cast on the background that show differences most clearly though with a double-diffuser softbox they'll look very similar. Then swap to the Fresnel head and you'll get a bit more brightness.

Hi sorry for the late reply had visitors earlier.

Anyways I have taken some photos as described "hopefully"
Softbox face is 1m from doll so maybe 1.20m from wall 90cm x90cm double diffused.

Godox Bare Bulb Softbox Full power

580ex Full power softbox 24mm zoom

Godox Fresnel full power softbox

No softbox Godox fresnel bare full power.

580ex Bare no softbox 50mm zoom. I did take an image at every zoom level none match the spread perfectly. Thought this one was not far out.

Are these results the norm and to be expected.

Thanks for the responses.

Gaz

 

[HoppyUK]

<snip>

Are these results the norm and to be expected.

Thanks for the responses.

Gaz

Yes They look pretty much exactly as I described - AD200 is significantly brighter than he 580EX, and the Godox's Fresnel head brighter still. It's hard to read too much into the last two with the bare heads because they're blitzed with over-exposure and the light pattern is different, but you've matched them up as best you can and the extra power of the AD200 is clear.

To see more, the images need adjusting for exposure. I do that with ISO in-camera as it's very accurate and avoids lens vignetting changes, but will only get you to the nearest 1/3rd stop. So then there's a final tweak in Lightroom. You can of course just take them into Lightroom now (not the blitzed ones) and adjust brightness, but I'm wary of measuring big shifts accurately that way as Lightroom doesn't adjust all tones equally though it is claimed to be linear around the mid-tones. With exposures equalised, you'll be able to put a reasonably accurate measure on power, and see if there are any modelling/shadow changes to the character of the light, and be able to assess evenness of coverage better. Despite claims that you need a bare-bulb to fill a softbox evenly and a Fresnel head will create a hot-spot, at least in theory, in practise they do a pretty good job in a double-diffuser softbox and if you were to zoom in on the doll's head I bet there'd be bugga all in it.

For your recycle time question, the way I do that is to simply fire off ten flashes as soon as the flash is recharged, note the time after the last flash has recycled, and simply divide by ten. You can do that accurately enough with a watch second-hand, but bear in mind that a lot of flash ready-lights and beepers come on at around 70% charge so you'd need to check that first and make an allowance. I can't think that you'd be disappointed with the AD200 on that front though, compared to the 580EX. A more relevant test would be to turn the AD200 down to match the 580EX's brightness and do a time comparison that way. The Godox will runway with it then

Edit: if using the Godox/Bowens adapter, you'll get a tad more maximum brightness if the gaps around the mount and bits of black plastic are covered with reflective material. That's what I did with the figures quoted earlier. It's only a couple of tenths or so but every drop counts and it affects some head/bulb designs slightly differently.

 

[simonbarker]

Are these results the norm and to be expected.

As said above, yes that seems normal.

I get the feeling this isn't as you expected, what were your expectations?

 

[HoppyUK]

As said above, yes that seems normal.

I get the feeling this isn't as you expected, what were your expectations?

I'm sure Cargo will reply, but when we're led to believe that 200Ws is 1.5 stops brighter than a speedlight, an AD200 is going to be disappointing on that score. Maybe a real cheapy speedlight, but not a £300 marque gun like the Canon 580EX.

It's not Godox's fault though. Some flash manufacturers are among the worst for marketing hype and, well, lies. Profoto is adept at it, and Elinchrom too with the new ELB500-TTL that has "ten times more power than speedlights" and is "the most powerful and portable TTL light ever designed." What?! It just isn't.

 

[cargo]

As said above, yes that seems normal.

I get the feeling this isn't as you expected, what were your expectations?

Hi Simon.

No i'm not disappointed at all. Like I said earlier my brain/logic was saying to me that at equal power the AD200 should be way brighter. You have
to realize i'm not the quickest on the uptake with these things either :-(
I did think about an AD600 at the time but to be fare thought I would not use it as it all looks a bit pro and that's not me at all. Plus I did think there would be way to much power in it for the space I would normally play around in. That said off the shots above I maybe could have used one quite easily.

Yes They look pretty much exactly as I described

Hi Richard.

Thanks for the very detailed reply. I really do appreciate the effort you've gone to. The quote "above" I used of yours sums it up perfectly. Doing anymore testing is getting way to deep for my wee brain and will have me more confused than ever !
I'm happy in the knowledge that there's nothing wrong with the unit, it is my way of understanding how these things work that's at fault.

Gaz

 

[HoppyUK]

You're welcome Gary, and you've done a good job - especially as it confirms my findings

There are some useful takeaways here too. Not all flash guns are the same, and all power claims should be taken with a pinch of salt - both guide numbers and Ws can be misleading (and neither is actually a measure of total light output anyway). If you do get around to equalising those exposures I think there'll be nothing to choose between the bare-bulb and Fresnel heads in terms of filling the softbox and shadow modelling on the subject, while the extra effective brightness of the AD200 Fresnel head might be handy. Note the slight colour shift though - not a problem unless you have two AD200's with different heads and easy to correct with the local brush in post-processing if it's ever noticeable, but worth knowing about.

Some caveats re softboxes. Speedlights work well in double-diffuser softboxes, small and medium size. Basically they need a bit of depth for the light to diffuse effectively, so not as good in shallow softboxes and larger softboxes tend to be relatively shallower. Using the wide-panel helps with that, but loses a big junk of brightness. Speedlights also work well in umbrellas and reverse-firing softboxes where the head design is no disadvantage.

On the recycle time you mentioned, that's worth testing to see what you actually get in practise, bearing in mind how IGBT flash units work. Basically, they always fire at full power and the flash pulse is cut short when enough light has been delivered, in both manual and TTL modes, and unused power is retained. This means that at half power, in theory you should be able to get two exposures in immediate succession before the capacitor is exhausted, four shots at quarter power and so on. It doesn't always work like that but worth checking. I suspect that with the AD200 you'll get two shots when turned down 1.3 stops, and three at 1/4 power - something like that.

Now, do the whole lot again in HSS mode

 

[simonbarker]

It's not Godox's fault though. Some flash manufacturers are among the worst for marketing hype and, well, lies. Profoto is adept at it, and Elinchrom too with the new ELB500-TTL that has "ten times more power than speedlights" and is "the most powerful and portable TTL light ever designed." What?! It just isn't.

It kinda is (in a general sense), the only reason we're stuck with this vagueness is because it suits the manufacturer's. Not that knowing that is much help to anyone of course.

No i'm not disappointed at all. Like I said earlier my brain/logic was saying to me that at equal power the AD200 should be way brighter. You have
to realize i'm not the quickest on the uptake with these things either :-(

That's fine, if you've been told it's three times more powerful than what you're using it's only reasonable to expect a bigger difference. I'm more accustomed to generators though so I have a tendency to think of the AD200 as a glorified speedlight that's not crippled by a Fresnel.

I did think about an AD600 at the time but to be fare thought I would not use it as it all looks a bit pro and that's not me at all. Plus I did think there would be way to much power in it for the space I would normally play around in. That said off the shots above I maybe could have used one quite easily.

I use another brand most of the time but when I came across an AD600 cheap I snapped it up and it's been useful, I'd recommend the same to anyone even if it just ends up as a spare, not wasting time on mount adapters is a bonus too.

 

[cargo]

@HoppyUK
@simonbarker

Thanks again. Very generous of you to spare your time and knowledge.

Gaz