Golden eagle - no pics

Would you take the photo oppertunity ?

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testbloke

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Name
Kevin
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Yes
Sorry no pics to post but actually that is the escence of this one. On way back from Loch Lomond on saturday, popped into the shops at local retail park. A private company were displaying birds of prey and charging to either take your own picture holding a specimen or have them take a picture.
As I had my camera in the car, I initially got very excited and felt very privileged to be within touching distance of beautifull birds including a golden eagle and peregrin falcon (please excuse spelling), however I got a huge pang of sadness in the end that such birds were spending days on end tethered, then manhandled onto passing punters to get photographed.
While they stated the birds were all bred in captivity or rescued and had all been hand reared, I still found it very sad to see them tethered like this (I have memories of watching golden eagles soaring over the hills as a child), ultimately I turned my back on it and did not get my camera.
id I do the right thing or am I being over sensitive and missed a good photo oppertunity ?
 
I would never take images of captive birds, as it always annoys me when professionals put such images in their portfolios. It also makes it less rewarding when you do get a wild shot as it will never look as good as the captive one you took, but this is just me :) Of course you could turn the other way and say that it is a prefect opportunity to practice photographing birds.

I would think that the birds are exercised daily and the money raised is hopefully going towards the care of such birds.
 
Moved to 'Talk Photography' as the 'Birds' section is for photo sharing only. Thanks :)
 
I'd say a missed opportunity. I too find it a little sad but surely there's an educational advantage. Also, I know the Loch Lomond guy has an owl with no beak which is a rescue...that would just die in the wild naturally so more to consider.

This is Orla who you maybe met today....

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I went to a steam rally recently where there was a similar set up, I just wasn't interested in photographing the birds, beautiful though they were. Can't explain it really, I just didn't feel at all compelled to do so.

I suppose its rationalising the captivity aspect of it, you can't always be sure that the birds are being adequately cared for or what their quality of life really is when they're a money making exercise rather than being displayed as a fundraising for a rescue/charity etc. On the flip side of that is that they are already in captivity so they're likely to get better cared for if the money keeps rolling in rather than people boycotting it where the more unscrupulous might just let the birds go and they can't fend for themselves etc - I know that's an extreme situation btw - just the way it came to me when thinking about replying!

Everyone sees these things differently though and my brain might be offline at this time of night :bonk:
 
You need to try and get inside the birds head and not plant human emotions
on them...............................
Hawks of all kinds are opportunist
If a falcon ( wild) makes a kill within minutes of being in the air
then its will be over the moon, stuff it self silly and sit up on a high perch somewhere for the rest of the day.

The first piece of road kill that a buzzard comes across it will stuff itself silly and ......

They only soar to get a good view of the surrounding country side
( of course there is mating behaviour ( food passing) in the late winter / early spring )

All the hawks eagles long wings are moulting at this time of year
it takes a lot of effort to catch (live) prey with feathers missing
thats why they moult now when there is easy pickings, young birds or ground game
such as rabbits all inexperienced.

I would bet that come the winter months when the moult is done
( and no passing trade for photographs) these various hawks / eagles will be out with their owners hunting.

I see nothing wrong in what they are doing except that, as they are moulting
they won't be looking their best, but you can bet your life that they will be stuffed with food
( to make them more amenable & moult cleanly)
and really won't be giving a monkey's what is going on around them
 
Interesting post Cobra. The Golden Eagle I pictured (above) dropped a large wing feather last week when I was watching them and the lad said they were moulting and he wouldn't fly them. It all makes a bit more sense now after reading what you say.
 
Excellent post Chris, excellent stuff.

I'd say by the look of that Golden Eagle, that he is a well fed, well looked after, very happy 'bunny' eater ":)
 
It is easy to get carried away emotionally in these cases, but the truth is that these birds would not survive in the wild. It is a hard life being a top predator in the wild and the attrition rate is high, even among wild born birds, these do not have any of the skills and would not stand a chance.

These birds are protected species and the people keeping them have to have permits to keep them in captivity. Therefore the circumstances in which they came to be in captivity are (hopefully) investigated and their treatment in captivity should also be monitored.

I would take photos with a clear conscience.
 
Lomond Lad said:
Interesting post Cobra. The Golden Eagle I pictured (above) dropped a large wing feather last week when I was watching them and the lad said they were moulting and he wouldn't fly them. It all makes a bit more sense now after reading what you say.
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Glad to have shed a little more light on the subject :thumbs:
Nice Images BTW :thumbs:

theMusicMan said:
Excellent post Chris, excellent stuff.

I'd say by the look of that Golden Eagle, that he is a well fed, well looked after, very happy 'bunny' eater ":)
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Thanks John :thumbs:
I would also say that looking at the pictures that the eagle is in very good all round condition
( and a very happry bunny (eater) :D)
 
unfortunately its just the world we live in. If these birds were flourishing in the wild, then i would agree, but because of the way we've affected the wild, we then have to have things like zoo's and bird sanctuary's to help them survive.
Most of these places are charities and therefore have to do anything to top up income.
Taking the birds to a shopping center maybe morally wrong, but if it earns money for them, and then that in turn, means the center can look after the welfare of more birds, then i guess it has to happen
 
testbloke said:
Glad it is not me taking moral highground, other people agree
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:D... whilst others may not... :shrug:


Chris has put the 'for' case far more eloquently than I could and I remain an advocate of caring, committed falconry by responsible, licensed individuals... ;) ...

... at least these captive birds, properly cared for and where they are able to fly, do 'fly for their supper' and have the freedom of the air as often as possible... :suspect: ... which is more than may be said, for example, for caged big cats and all other animals, plus fish and mammals in tiny glass tanks... but don't get me started on that contentious issue... :naughty:



Of course there will always be so-called human beings who will mistreat and harm any creatures supposedly in their care but that is yet another, some say even more, contentious issue... :cuckoo:



Thought provoking OP... :thumbs:






:p
 
Venomator said:


:D... whilst others may not... :shrug:....................


Chris has put the 'for' case far more eloquently than I could .............
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Yep the poll seems to have done a bit of a U-Turn since last night :D

and thanks Ven :thumbs:
 
Cobra said:
Yep the poll seems to have done a bit of a U-Turn since last night :D

and thanks Ven :thumbs:
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No worries Chris... :D... it is occasionally good to have a spert stick his oar in... :naughty:






:p
 
I think Chris has given me food for thought, I know it is double standards as I am a member of the zoo, I think the shock was the location, outside borders, crowd five deep, kids trying to feed an eagle chips etc :-(
The display itself was generating good income, probably more than the photos, it was the constant handling of the birds for the posed photos that upset me more.
 
Venomator said:


No worries Chris... :D... it is occasionally good to have a spert stick his oar in... :naughty:

:p
Click to expand...

You know what they say about experts Ven
Ex- A used to be
Spurt a drip under pressure :D


testbloke said:
I think Chris has given me food for thought, I know it is double standards as I am a member of the zoo, I think the shock was the location, outside borders, crowd five deep, kids trying to feed an eagle chips etc :-(
The display itself was generating good income, probably more than the photos, it was the constant handling of the birds for the posed photos that upset me more.
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No worries and I understand your concerns :thumbs:
I would hope that the "falconers" were experienced enough to remove the
birds from the situation should they start to become stressed.
Thats when "accidents" happen. As previously started I bet the
birds were well fed and were not bothered.
However should they start
to get agitated and start throwing their feet around, don't worry about the beak, it will hurt if it bites,
but those talons .........even the smallest hawk can slice your hand open.
( not only are they pointed but they are sharp along the edge)
A 7-ish Lb Goldie....these things kill foxes and deer and are quite capable of crushing the skull,
there is a lot of power in them thar feet!........
And a hawk will soon let you know when its had "enough" :D
 
Yeah, fair point. The organisers had posters stating all the birds were fed and flown once per day. I am not against falconry, I have watched a display in the desert in the middle east, but then falconry in the middle east is on a different level.
I will admit the birds did not seem fussed, it surprised me that a falcon would sit still while a child (and adult !) "stroked" it, maybe if they had defended themselves against the ignorant shoppers I would have been happier !
 
Nowt against falconry, esp. as it often supports birds that wouldn't survive in the wild.

I don't think I'd shoot them though as it feels a bit like cheating compared to trying to catch them in their natural environment. That said, one with the handler in shot might work quite well from a reportage perspective..
 
tbm said:
Nowt against falconry, esp. as it often supports birds that wouldn't survive in the wild.

I don't think I'd shoot them though as it feels a bit like cheating compared to trying to catch them in their natural environment. That said, one with the handler in shot might work quite well from a reportage perspective..
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Only if you had a shallow enough DOF to blur out the borders logo !
 
Liam said:
I would never take images of captive birds, as it always annoys me when professionals put such images in their portfolios. It also makes it less rewarding when you do get a wild shot as it will never look as good as the captive one you took, but this is just me :)
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Do you feel the same when going to the zoo? (in my view those are the same thing really yet a lot of people do take photos of captive animals in zoos).

It also depends on the goal of the photo really - what if you goal was to portray the essence of captivity itself, to make people looking at the photo feel sad for the animal in captivity? The reason I am asking is because I once took a photo exactly with this goal (love the owls and am always saddened to see those magnificent birds captive). The photo, if interested, is here (as I don't think this thread is appropriate for the image).
 
I think that these birds are a great educational tool. my 4 year old thinks that eagles etc are great with big sharp claws and big eyes and seeing them up close only gives him more exictment. although i can see the joy at trying to catch a glimpse or any eagle, hawk etc in the wild as an educational tool these birds are invaluable.
 
dalex_257 said:
Do you feel the same when going to the zoo? (in my view those are the same thing really yet a lot of people do take photos of captive animals in zoos).

It also depends on the goal of the photo really - what if you goal was to portray the essence of captivity itself, to make people looking at the photo feel sad for the animal in captivity? The reason I am asking is because I once took a photo exactly with this goal (love the owls and am always saddened to see those magnificent birds captive). The photo, if interested, is here (as I don't think this thread is appropriate for the image).
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Before I looked at the image you linked, I was going to say that if I were to take my camera to a zoo I would like you try and show the sadness of the animal, by including the fences and using b&w. And sure enough you have done exactly what I would have done!
 
There's a correlation with a situation down here in Wales... Until recently, Red Kites were all but wiped out in the UK but now there's a strong healthy population. At two sites in Mid-Wales, the birds congregate for a regular feed. At Gigrin Farm near Rhyader and at Bwlch Nant-yr-arian near Aberystwyth.

At 3pm on a summers afternoon, you can see between 50 and a couple of hundred birds circling overhead (along with Buzzards, crows, jackdaws etc)... Now I've taken advantage of this arranged spectacle because these birds are a b****r to photograph when they're soaring...

Does that make me a bad person for making the most of a situation that's wholly artificial or am I just photographing something that the birds would do normally - be opportunistic feeders?

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Personally feel that there is nothing wrong with what these centres do, I know the one at Loch Lomond, and visit it every time I am in Scotland, the person who runs it seams to have a genuine interest for the well being of all the birds, I have also seen him down at the shores in the shopping area with the birds, in fact the entry I submitted to last years calendar comp was of his golden eagle, here is the shot if you did not see it,

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Would love to get a shot like it of a wild bird, but that would likely cause more distress to the bird in its wild surroundings, that's if you could get close enough, I personally feel it is better to take the shot of a captive bird than risk causing distress to a wild eagle.
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with taking the pictures.

As some others said, it is very difficult to survive as a top predator especially with the hunting as well. And you don't really see these kinds of bird flying around all the time.

It would definitely be much more rewarding if you saw one in wild and managed to get a shot but chances of that happening is very low (if not none).
 
TESTBLOKE. I think the real answer to your question lies within yourself. Regardless of how others see the situation, it is how you felt that will decide your course of action. I had a similar quandry a few years ago, not exaclty the same but a very similar judgement issue.

I was sent out to Canada by a shooting and fishing magazine to do a feature story on a lodge that ran spring salmon fishing and spring bear hunting trips as a combined package. I ama keen shot and a keen angler - and have no orries about either. However, after 4 days fishing and only catching one small grilse (a one sea winter returned salmon) of about 4lbs it was then onto shooting the bear.

I am a stalker and used to take people on guided hunts myself, getting them into close quarters before taking the shot (one guy I got to within 5 meters of a sika hind - and he missed! Another time I got a Danish girl, olympic rifle shot, within 8 meters of a sika stag. Brilliant, we just watched it and she chose to not shoot.)

Anyway, I was expecting proper hunting for these bears. Instead, i was sat in a plastic chair that had been placed in a ring of small firs, so closely planted that they had to be trimmed to get into the seat. The bears had been baited for days beforehand and the truck was like a dinner bell to them. They would come in within minutes of the truck departing, all I had to do was sit and wait about 30 meters away, being eaten by mosquitoes despite the DEET 100% and face net and every other device to keep the things away......I sathere and sure enough, within 10 minutes a small bear loped in and started to eat. I just watched and got some pics. Then a BIG bear came in and cuffed it round the ear. This bear was very distinctive as it only had 3 legs, the front left had been lost at some time.

I raised my 7x64 rifle and put the cross hairs on the base of its ear. It was an easy shot. I breathe slowly and prepared to squeeze the trigger. The bear was totally unaware of my presence and just stuffed itself. Then i put the rifle up and contemplated things for a moment. I raised the rifle again and took aim - but something didn't feel right to me. I was uncomfortable. The bear was sat stuffing itself quite content and I could have shot it 10 times over. It finished the food and got up and came down the track right towards me. I raised the rifle and put the sight on its head (no good chest shooting a bear, they charge forwards! You HAVE to stop it dead!) Anyway, it ambled down the track - stuck its nose in the trees about 2 feet from me, grunted and trotted off. I didn't shoot, but had it put a paw in I would have.

The reason I didn't shoot it? Despite having shot countless foxes and deer in my time. The bait. Instead of natural food such as a small deer, or fish - they had used a drum full of Tim Hortons doughnuts - yesterdays doughnuts. If I had been on th eintercept to the bait, i would have felled that bear. If it had been natural bait, like they use fo rleopards - same, i wouod have had no hesitation in squeezing off the shot. But because it was doughnuts, it just didn't feel right.

i went back and told them the story. They were furious - they had been after that bear formonths. It had been raiding the fish farm down the road and the leg was lost in a wire snare they had set for it.......it was a real nuisance ear and I had let it go! Not only that, but I had lost the story. i phoned my wife and told her of my quandry...she said not to worry. I did what had felt right for me at the time - had I shot it, I would have felt wrong about it for the rest of my life. She was right.

So, although the circumstances were different, the situation was the same. You didn't take any pictures because for you, at the time, it felt wrong. There is no shame in that and it means you can sleep at night. You have not lost anything, you can always go back and get pictures if you feel differently.

I got the story in the end. I stayed over an dmissed my flight home. I told them why I wasn't happy about the shooting over bait, so they put me in a position where I could intercept a bear on its way in to another bait position. I felt much better about that.
 
Lensflare as you said its a judgement call
but to be honest I would have taken that bear out
Why?
it only had 3 legs as so it would be disadvantaged
either to the point of dying because it was unable to feed it self
or it would have made a nuisance of it self with easy picking ( the donuts proved that )
either in town raiding bins ( pets whatever) or as you later found out a local fish farm

TBH if there is vermin to be destroyed for what ever reason why stalk it if you can draw
it in close? ( I am sure you have squeaked foxes )

On the other hand of course the stalk is more important than the trophy
but I would always keep the 2 separate ( Vermin control / Sport) :thumbs:


( sorry for the off topic post)
 
I have shot rabbits for sport but did so on the farmers request (as vermin control). I have also shot deer and duck but did stalk the prey for hours and did eat the kill. I also used to fish. Thing is, in all these cases I was entering there environment.
It really is hard to put my finger on it and as sid, it "just did not feel right"
Next time if I visit the facilities and see the birds in a more natural habitat I will probably take some pictures.
BTW, stunning pictures in this thread above, particularly love the kite.
 
I realise this is an old thread, however, I would like to point out a few things. I own the Loch Lomond Bird of Prey Centre. I sometimes display at Lomond Shores, never at retail parks such as Asda at Dumbarton and Clydebank Shopping Centre, that is another outfit, which I will not discuss on here. I would ask you to look at the Eagles in post 25 & 26. Post 25 is Orla, my Golden Eagle, 26 is the other crowd. Which one looks the more alert and aware ? I do not believe in exhibiting in retail parks, purely for commercial gain through photos and donations, I believe in educating the public. The previous poster was correct, we do rescue and rehabilitate wild birds, the Long-eared Owl has a broken beak and would not survive, we have adopted him, he has been here six years now. I understand the comments from others too, the abhorrance at exploitation of captive birds, this is something that I understand and detest myself, however, some do not. I would think the people making those remarks saw the birds at the retail park in Dumbarton.

I cannot blame people for assuming that due to our proximity to Dumbarton and Clydebank, that it is myself that displays there. It is something that I have to tolerate, but the difference in ethics between myself and others should be apparent.

Thanks for your time.

Regards,
Stewart,
Director, Loch Lmond Bird of Prey Centre.
www.llbopc.co.uk
 
These birds are protected species and the people keeping them have to have permits to keep them in captivity. Therefore the circumstances in which they came to be in captivity are (hopefully) investigated and their treatment in captivity should also be monitored.
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I know a guy who keeps such birds. He is licensed and subject to a random inspection. He had such an inspection at 5PM last New Year's Eve; unannounced, and if he'd refused he'd have lost his license and have to give the birds up. The birds are very well looked after, well fed, and his are all rescue cases that would have died in the wild. He also flies them every day he possibly can. Once the birds are on the wing they can, of course, go where they want.
 
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