Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

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I've just done a forum search to try and see how people currently feel about Grey Imports but most of the threads are now years old.

Has general opinion changed over the years? I have to say that in my experience, it has. Much of the worry seemed to be based on servicing, repairs, warranty etc. - or even back in the early days, whether the item even existed. Having personally used Panamoz and DigitalRev multiple times since around 2014/15 when I got my D750 bodies, I have now also got first hand experience of buying and indeed dealing with warranty repairs etc. thanks in part to the D750 recalls. It's all been a positive experience for me, personally.

I'm now looking at getting a D780 and because I'd like it (not need it, really) inside a week I started looking at UK retailers, then at MPB for decent seconds, then at Grey prices, which are even cheaper still than UK seconds.

Considering now that the aftersales service seems to be just as good, if not better (3 years warranty from Panamoz for example) and that when it used to be that when it later came to selling gear on, you used to get people not wanting to touch Grey gear with a barge pole, but now particularly if trying to sell UK equipment, buyers will barter down based on new grey prices anyway. So, outside of delivery times I'm struggling to see much of a pro for buying on the UK market for your everyday Joe Bloggs consumer like me.

I'm interested to hear other members feeling on this matter now it's become more of an established buying option, perhaps there is a part of the picture I'm not seeing? Let's hear it.

Thanks
 
Just a quick comparison: Canon R6 body. Wex and LCE £2399, Panamoz £2000, e-infinity £1899. What's the difference? Well, Panamoz offer a 3 year warranty as opposed to e-infinity's 1 year, and the UK retailers have a physical place to go with any issues, advice needed, but of course are maintaining the overhead of a physical shop with rent/lease, rates, staff on permit contracts with pensions and so on.
Morally it's inescapably wrong to buy from companies that find ways to wriggle out of the correct amount of duty and vat as the grey importers are reputed to do, and it's also a good thing to support homegrown businesses, especially the few remaining small niche shops in our field. But it's hard to feel comfortable about backing up the moral high ground with £400 of hard cash.
I've bought both ways, probably more at full UK price with special offers, that grey (though I have used e-infinity happily a couple of times). Why the former? Sheer convenience, I could go and hold the thing, then buy it straight away. It depends what that convenience is worth in regard to the urgency of need or GAS.
 
lindsay said:
Just a quick comparison: Canon R6 body. Wex and LCE £2399, Panamoz £2000, e-infinity £1899. What's the difference? Well, Panamoz offer a 3 year warranty as opposed to e-infinity's 1 year, and the UK retailers have a physical place to go with any issues, advice needed, but of course are maintaining the overhead of a physical shop with rent/lease, rates, staff on permit contracts with pensions and so on.
Morally it's inescapably wrong to buy from companies that find ways to wriggle out of the correct amount of duty and vat as the grey importers are reputed to do, and it's also a good thing to support homegrown businesses, especially the few remaining small niche shops in our field. But it's hard to feel comfortable about backing up the moral high ground with £400 of hard cash.
I've bought both ways, probably more at full UK price with special offers, that grey (though I have used e-infinity happily a couple of times). Why the former? Sheer convenience, I could go and hold the thing, then buy it straight away. It depends what that convenience is worth in regard to the urgency of need or GAS.
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R6 was much nearer £2k in the recent Photography Show offers, and I woudl expect similar on Black Friday deals, buy at the right time an UK prices can be very competitive.
 
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Most if not all of my recent gear has been from E-infinity or Panamoz.
Unfortunately, there are no camera stores within at least a 100 mile radius of Aberdeen.
This means that I can't go to a store and physically handle or buy locally.
 
lindsay said:
Morally it's inescapably wrong to buy from companies that find ways to wriggle out of the correct amount of duty and vat as the grey importers are reputed to do
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This is an interesting point that’s also crossed my mind, but then you’d have to consider avoiding using Amazon, Google, Facebook, Costa, Vodafone etc. The list of companies with questionable moral stances on tax goes well beyond getting cheap cameras from Hong Kong unfortunately.
 
Me² said:
This is an interesting point that’s also crossed my mind, but then you’d have to consider avoiding using Amazon, Google, Facebook, Costa, Vodafone etc. The list of companies with questionable moral stances on tax goes well beyond getting cheap cameras from Hong Kong unfortunately.
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Perhaps but the companies you listed all use legal (if not moral) means whereas grey importers, not so much.
 
Marc said:
Perhaps but the companies you listed all use legal (if not moral) means whereas grey importers, not so much.
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And for absolute clarity, it's the importer (i.e. you) that is liable at the end of the day, not the company sending the goods. It's very unlikely to come to anything, but ultimately under-declared goods are the responsibility of the person importing them.
 
ukaskew said:
And for absolute clarity, it's the importer (i.e. you) that is liable at the end of the day, not the company sending the goods. It's very unlikely to come to anything, but ultimately under-declared goods are the responsibility of the person importing them.
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Yes but the company sending them is 'supposed' to put the correct declared value on the paperwork
 
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Used Panamoz for my Sony A9 just over a year ago, around mid spring I knocked the camera by accident and broke off the left side knob above the the C3 button, my fault but when I contacted Panamoz they told me to send to Sony UK who by the way charged a lot to replace the knob with a brand new one although the old one just to me needed re-seating with appropriate type of glue, Panamoz paid the whole cost, no mucking about just did it.
As for the price difference between a seller like Panamoz and a UK store, when UK stores offer cashback you still on many items pay more than from imports and lastly if UK stores can offer you cash back albeit via the makers of the equipment then they and the suppliers are over charging in the first place, why not just sell the items at the cash back price in the first place? is just a ploy on the shops part to get people to think they are getting a better deal? Russ.
 
To be honest although I understand supporting UK businesses the difference in price for me anyway means that for me the options are second hand or new grey imports
It just makes sense to me to me to buy new from Panamoz or HDEW who I have found both to be excellent rather than buy a second hand camera from eBay or one of the dealers selling second hand , who I’m sure are ok it just still a second hand camera with limited warranty though
 
The following point I'd like to make based upon pure observation of people I know buying from E-infinity and blurb on their website. I don't know if it 100% operates like this but I've used common sense.

How do we know the wrong or right customs etc have been paid? E-infinity specify that what you see is what you pay. From what I understand there's no customs declarations on any of the parcels they send meaning they're possibly sending each item to the UK then it's being repackaged and sent on or they've already imported loads of items and are shipping out of the UK. If it's being sent to us from within the UK then is it wrong to purchase from them? Technically we aren't the importer at that point so they would be responsible for the import charges? Just some food for thought.

On the topic of grey, it's a dog eat dog world out there. It's often said to support local stores etc and I try my best to buy everything from small businesses because I can afford to but the reality is their prices often tend to be higher than others due to their overheads. Why should we put ourselves out to pay extra for items that are more expensive than other places? Who looks after us when we run out of money and think "if I'd have not spent that extra £50 by buying from Wex instead then I'd have money to eat just now". That's an extreme example but again a perspective often overlooked. Again just some food for thought.

My opinion. Do what you want, what's best for you and your family and stay on the right side of the law. The businesses that sell grey imports generally are good enough to help you through any matters you have so if you want to buy from them then go for it. Warranty is held too high in people's opinions IMO. If you have a reputable company that creates quality products then you should never need to use it. Of course I'm not oblivious to the fact that sometimes there is warranty issues that exist but in my 35 years on this planet and all the tech I buy, I can't think of a time I've had to use it (touch wood) and I owned the original Xbox 360! Haha.
 
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russellsnr said:
Used Panamoz for my Sony A9 just over a year ago, around mid spring I knocked the camera by accident and broke off the left side knob above the the C3 button, my fault but when I contacted Panamoz they told me to send to Sony UK who by the way charged a lot to replace the knob with a brand new one although the old one just to me needed re-seating with appropriate type of glue, Panamoz paid the whole cost, no mucking about just did it.
As for the price difference between a seller like Panamoz and a UK store, when UK stores offer cashback you still on many items pay more than from imports and lastly if UK stores can offer you cash back albeit via the makers of the equipment then they and the suppliers are over charging in the first place, why not just sell the items at the cash back price in the first place? is just a ploy on the shops part to get people to think they are getting a better deal? Russ.
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For retailers the margins on cameras are wafer thin. Cash back is financed by the manufacturer as a promotional expense (usually managed by a third party), as ultimately for them getting people invested in their system is the aim.

I bought a couple of Panasonic S5s recently with massive cash-back incentives, I'm fairly confident Panasonic UK lost money on the cameras, but I've spent a fair bit with them since (additonal lenses, batteries etc).
 
YoshiK1 said:
How do we know the wrong or right customs etc have been paid? E-infinity specify that what you see is what you pay. From what I understand there's no customs declarations on any of the parcels they send meaning they're possibly sending each item to the UK then it's being repackaged and sent on or they've already imported loads of items and are shipping out of the UK. If it's being sent to us from within the UK then is it wrong to purchase from them? Technically we aren't the importer at that point so they would be responsible for the import charges? Just some food for thought.
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Another good point, my last parcel from Panamoz looked like it had been sent from within the UK actually - and indeed didn't hide the fact that it was a camera as it had all the Lithium Ion battery warning stickers all over it too.
 
Me² said:
Another good point, my last parcel from Panamoz looked like it had been sent from within the UK actually - and indeed didn't hide the fact that it was a camera as it had all the Lithium Ion battery warning stickers all over it too.
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Yes mine too from Panamoz recently and HDEW in the past they are supplying from the UK so technically for tax reasons they are selling in the UK just not getting warranty from Canon UK
 
SFTPhotography said:
I love grey imports and will avoid paying UK retailers and UK VAT whenever I possibly can.

Panamoz ship as fast as UK retailer and you literally save loads of money and get a longer and more practical warranty to boot.
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I'm with you on this.
I, like most pay VAT on most things I buy but if I can get camera gear cheaper I will.
 
We need tax to employ people and pay for the NHS, police, teachers and everything else but kit is getting more expensive and the only way some people can afford it is to buy used or grey. It's a difficult moral dilemma and I'm not going to lecture or criticise anyone no matter what their choice.
 
woof woof said:
We need tax to employ people and pay for the NHS, police, teachers and everything else but kit is getting more expensive and the only way some people can afford it is to buy used or grey. It's a difficult moral dilemma and I'm not going to lecture or criticise anyone no matter what their choice.
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We pay plenty of tax. Perhaps the answer is less government and state apparatus.

After all, wanting to keep as much as what is yours isn't greedy, but wanting other people to pay more tax to fund your services is the very definition of greed.

E infin and Panamoz ship to their UK warehouse then to you. It's a two stage delivery process so the responsibility falls to them to pay any duty due, not you.
 
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I’ve used both. Bodies usually show a better saving grey than lenses.
Nikon D780 is currently £700 cheaper than official retailers at e-infin.
That’s 35% on a body that was released less than 2 years ago.
 
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YoshiK1 said:
From what I understand there's no customs declarations on any of the parcels they send meaning they're possibly sending each item to the UK then it's being repackaged and sent on or they've already imported loads of items and are shipping out of the UK. If it's being sent to us from within the UK then is it wrong to purchase from them? Technically we aren't the importer at that point so they would be responsible for the import charges?
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It’s just smuggling. Smugglers don’t have import forms etc. ;) I’m sure you are still the importer legally. You may as well argue the courier firm was the importer because they carried it over the border. :)

Personally I’ve always said it’s not necessarily wrong to break rules but you should always know what rules you are breaking and why!
 
SFTPhotography said:
We pay plenty of tax. Perhaps the answer is less government and state apparatus.

After all, wanting to keep as much as what is yours isn't greedy, but wanting other people to pay more tax to fund your services is the very definition of greed.
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It's not entirely the governments fault as running a business and employing people in the UK is expensive, there's the minimum/living wage which although set by government that government may well be under pressure and influenced by non government agencies and public opinion and then there are the other costs such as utilities, insurance, business rates, delivery costs, rent for the property they operate out of and gosh knows what other costs which will be much lower in other places like Vietnam, Thailand and China.

I can appreciate how you feel but equally I see the need to pay the doctor you may need to treat you if you fall ill, the army who may have to fight and die to protect you, the roads you'll need so that goods can be delivered to you and all the other things you wont miss until you need them.
 
I find h.dew great if they have the goods I want , not sure how they will get round a 3 warranty on the likes of Olympus when olympus no longer supply spares to exterior business .. never know if the camera goes tits up after 2 year 11 months ,it might mean a brand new replacement
 
sphexx said:
It’s just smuggling. Smugglers don’t have import forms etc. ;) I’m sure you are still the importer legally. You may as well argue the courier firm was the importer because they carried it over the border. :)

Personally I’ve always said it’s not necessarily wrong to break rules but you should always know what rules you are breaking and why!
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I agree with your last paragraph but I don't necessarily believe we are the importer in this circumstance. If this was the case then 95% of what we buy we need to check customs etc because essentially the UK is an island and barely anything is made here anymore as its cheaper to be made in China etc then imported to the UK. With that said, my opinion is that we are not the importer if it's being shipped within the UK; the company selling is. Regardless of what we believe we should break the rules.....I mean that's what you said. Right? Haha
 
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woof woof said:
It's not entirely the governments fault as running a business and employing people in the UK is expensive, there's the minimum/living wage which although set by government that government may well be under pressure and influenced by non government agencies and public opinion and then there are the other costs such as utilities, insurance, business rates, delivery costs, rent for the property they operate out of and gosh knows what other costs which will be much lower in other places like Vietnam, Thailand and China.

I can appreciate how you feel but equally I see the need to pay the doctor you may need to treat you if you fall ill, the army who may have to fight and die to protect you, the roads you'll need so that goods can be delivered to you and all the other things you wont miss until you need them.
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I support local businesses where I can but £800 is £800

How many of us buy from Amazon because they are convenient (not even always cheaper). How much thought is given to the local retailer then. the chances are the local retailer doesn't stock what I need anyway.

I went to B&Q the other day to get some DIY stuff. They didn't stock it. They had plenty of BBQ's though,
 
ecoleman said:
I support local businesses where I can but £800 is £800

How many of us buy from Amazon because they are convenient (not even always cheaper). How much thought is given to the local retailer then. the chances are the local retailer doesn't stock what I need anyway.

I went to B&Q the other day to get some DIY stuff. They didn't stock it. They had plenty of BBQ's though,
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One reason I'm buying more online than ever is because stuff just isn't easily available locally. I can't buy it locally, so I have to buy on line. It's as simple as that. With camera related gear there's Currys but anything more specialist probably means a day trip to Newcastle or York so ordering online is probably the thing to do.
 
sphexx said:
Personally I’ve always said it’s not necessarily wrong to break rules but you should always know what rules you are breaking and why!
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True.

In the current circumstances, I wouldn't be surprised to see local HMRC offices receiving long lists of suspect deliveries and sending out the juniors to "check up" on the goods. As a numbers game, they'd expect to pick up a good amount of unpaid duty from the people who thought they were unlikely to be fingered.
:tumbleweed:
 
Have had great service from Panamoz on most occasions. Even had a fault with a two and a half year old camera body they asked me to send it for a repair quote. Got the quote and emailed it to them. The cost of repair was just under £400 and they sent me a payment for the full amount in less than 30 minutes.

Have had pretty bad experiences with E-infin and have caught them out telling absolute lies on more than a few occasions. No longer trust them at all.

I have had recent issues with U.K companies including one who told me cash back was available on an item when it wasn’t as I was buying through my business rather than as an individual. It was investigated by the company and the sales person did admit to purposely misleading me eventually but it all took to long to resolve.

Panamoz gets my vote just for the customer care alone.
 
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f/2.8 said:
Have had great service from Panamoz on most occasions. Even had a fault with a two and a half year old camera body they asked me to send it for a repair quote. Got the quote and emailed it to them. The cost of repair was just under £400 and they sent me a payment for the full amount in less than 30 minutes.

Have had pretty bad experiences with E-infin and have caught them out telling absolute lies on more than a few occasions. No longer trust them at all.
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What lies? I had a friend who got a camera with the seal broken. He asked if it was used and they told him sometimes they open the cameras to inspect them before sending them. I think that was a cop out but the shutter count was zero and everything was in order.
 
I suspect the HMRC enforcement branch have a lot more to do at present than chase the occasional camera purchaser. However I would imagine their "Behavioural Modification" team (outsourced and outside IR35, wouldn't you know it) may be engaged at some time to send out the appropriate harassment threatening letters to people on the off chance of voluntary contributions. (BTW this team.unit really does exist under that name, they really do use these bullyboy tactics speculatively)
 
Grey imports are neither illegal or fraud despite what a lot of people on this forum may think (and regularly say). It is simply a way of getting around manufacturer's price fixing between countries - they will price as high as they think that market will pay. I used to import/export to and from the UK from countries all over the world in my last business.

If you (or the business you buy from) don't pay customs duty and VAT on grey imports, then that's a different argument altogether. I buy from Panamoz and on my last purchase saved almost £1,000.00 over UK prices, so I will continue doing so. I have not used E-Infinity because although their prices are often a little better; they don't offer a three year warranty.
 
lindsay said:
(BTW this team.unit really does exist under that name, they really do use these bullyboy tactics speculatively)
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About thirty years ago, when I was building a training system for Customs and Excise, they had a policy of randomly checking parcels at docks and airports. When they found anything interesting, they'd pass it to the local Collection who, I was told, would send round junior officers to deliver it and demand the duty.

I was told that it was "good training in dealing with the public". :wideyed:
 
gman said:
It would help if our politicians demonstrated a high standard of morals and ethics for us to follow. Panamoz forever it is then. :D
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I mean they shouldn't get expenses at all. Think of all the money the country would save if they stopped buying custard cremes on expenses. Anyway that's a debate for another forum haha.
 
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Sky said:
Grey imports are neither illegal or fraud despite what a lot of people on this forum may think (and regularly say). It is simply a way of getting around manufacturer's price fixing between countries - they will price as high as they think that market will pay. I used to import/export to and from the UK from countries all over the world in my last business.
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Were you a professional smuggler or did you pay all the relevant duties and taxes?

If you have bought from the mentioned grey importers, did you get a VAT receipt?

I don’t know if any of you smugglers are VAT registered professional photographers, but if you are, have you claimed back the VAT on the cameras?
 
woof woof said:
One reason I'm buying more online than ever is because stuff just isn't easily available locally. I can't buy it locally, so I have to buy on line. It's as simple as that. With camera related gear there's Currys but anything more specialist probably means a day trip to Newcastle or York so ordering online is probably the thing to do.
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That is a good point. I can order something at 10pm from Amazon and it be here the next morning. No petrol costs, no car parking charges AND the goods are typically significantly cheaper. My nearest camera store is a 30 minute drive away in a city that does everything it can to discourage cars! Say you what you like about Amazon but they have absolutely superb customer service if something does go wrong (I suspect because it's actually cheaper for them to just write things off and dispatch a new one in many cases).

Camera stores make sense if you have one easily accessible and local, but for most of us that simply isn't the case.

£7 a month or whatever Prime costs these days pays for itself quite comfortably, that wouldn't pay for one trip into my nearest city with a camera store.
 
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