HDR on Paisley Abbey

[gilbouk]

I really enjoy taking photos of the insides of churches and abbeys. I find the structures impressive inside with the ornate decorations and variety of materials used - as well as the stained glass windows!!

One challenge I face is avoiding blowing the windows out and also losing detail in the shadows as a result.

I've been playing around with HDR - but have to say, I'm not sure what the best bracketing settings are and I'm lost as to what the correct method should be. 3 or 5 shots?

Given the below situation, do you expose for the window so there are no blinkies and then move the bracketing settings so it subsequently exposes the shots upwards so as to lift the darks?

I've tried my best for below pictures using Photoshop HDR Pro (raws were first saves as PSDs) and camera RAW but still not as happy with the window as I would have been just working with the least exposed picture of the 3 - to me it's a little blown - that being said I'm happier with the darks but have lost a bit of the natural shadows so my HDR looks flat.


HSC_3394 by Gilbo B, on Flickr

HSC_3395 by Gilbo B, on Flickr

HSC_3396 by Gilbo B, on Flickr

Untitled_HDR2 by Gilbo B, on Flickr

 

[Dale.]

I did HDR here 2 years ago, I did 3 exposures for each image. I got ok results but I think I could've got better. Next time, I will try 2 exposures, one where I expose for the window and one where I expose for the shadows, the midtones should look after themselves. The trick with HDR is to keep it looking natural. It's not a tool for everything but it does have its place, and buildings like this are ideal. It depends on what look you're after, it can be done with one, well exposed image that is processed well and not HDR, or there is the HDR route.

I use the NIK bolt on software or Photomatix for when I do endulge in HDR which isn't very often these days.

I think you've done ok, the final picture is lacking in contrast a little, but that's a subjective thing and done to taste anyhoo. To avoid blowing the window, which is going to be difficult at the moment, go on a grey day or early evening/dusk when it's not so bright outside. I'm not sure which way the sun would swing around the window but it would get sunlight at some point this time of year, which you'll never get under control. Also, composition/symmetry is important with these kind of images, you have got the verticals pretty well though.

I find HDR is a great tool for mono images, not so much for colour and abbeys/churches etc are great subjects. HDR isn't for everybody but done well, it is a handy tool to have.

I'm wondering what the canvas type structure is? That wasn't there on my last visit? The lady who greets people was very helpful too and I had clearance to go up into the higher levels but I had to decline as I was running out of parking time.

Certainly worth a re visit for you, it's a wonderful place, the Cathedral is good too, there are 2 levels there with arches and cloister type settings, both are awesome places. Also, the Uni Cloisters are fab too.

 

[Harlequin565]

I'm not sure what the best bracketing settings are and I'm lost as to what the correct method should be. 3 or 5 shots?

Meter for the shadows, meter for the highlights, then take one photo every stop in-between as a minimum. I've done half-stops and some people do third stops, but now I just do full stops as it makes no difference I can see.

Example:
Highlights, f11, ISO 100, 1/250sec
Shadows, f11, ISO 100, 1/10sec
(in this case keeping aperture the same for dof and ISO the same for quality)

Images taken at f11, ISO 100 then : 1/250sec, 1/125sec, 1/60sec, 1/30sec & 1/10sec for 5 shots in total. If the dynamic range was less (1/250 & 1/60 for example) you might need less overall photos. Using arbitrary numbers like 5 or 3 is no help because it depends on the scene. Bracketing is also "kinda ok" but you're hoping it starts in the middle and goes either side. Just take readings from your shadows and highlights and divvy up or down as you need. Shutter speed stops are quite easy to do in your head.

 

[gilbouk]

I did HDR here 2 years ago, I did 3 exposures for each image. I got ok results but I think I could've got better. Next time, I will try 2 exposures, one where I expose for the window and one where I expose for the shadows, the midtones should look after themselves. The trick with HDR is to keep it looking natural. It's not a tool for everything but it does have its place, and buildings like this are ideal. It depends on what look you're after, it can be done with one, well exposed image that is processed well and not HDR, or there is the HDR route.

I use the NIK bolt on software or Photomatix for when I do endulge in HDR which isn't very often these days.

I think you've done ok, the final picture is lacking in contrast a little, but that's a subjective thing and done to taste anyhoo. To avoid blowing the window, which is going to be difficult at the moment, go on a grey day or early evening/dusk when it's not so bright outside. I'm not sure which way the sun would swing around the window but it would get sunlight at some point this time of year, which you'll never get under control. Also, composition/symmetry is important with these kind of images, you have got the verticals pretty well though.

I find HDR is a great tool for mono images, not so much for colour and abbeys/churches etc are great subjects. HDR isn't for everybody but done well, it is a handy tool to have.

I'm wondering what the canvas type structure is? That wasn't there on my last visit? The lady who greets people was very helpful too and I had clearance to go up into the higher levels but I had to decline as I was running out of parking time.

Certainly worth a re visit for you, it's a wonderful place, the Cathedral is good too, there are 2 levels there with arches and cloister type settings, both are awesome places. Also, the Uni Cloisters are fab too.

Some really interesting stuff there - thanks for all the info. I'm trying Photomatix as we speak!! Hopefully I'll get some of the drama back from the shadows.

Yes, the tent was being setup along with tables for this weekends Weave Festival with Sma’ Shot Day.

https://www.renfrewshireleisure.com/weave-festival-and-sma-shot-day/

I tried to avoid getting that all in - so my photo isn't well composed - I must revisit. An I will go along to the cathedral as that looks like it's worth visiting too.

 

[Harlequin565]

(..continuing after a bit of thought)
Looking at your images, #4 looks "highlight" best (not blown, nice detail) and *for me*, #3 is the best shadow exposure (#4 is too faded/bright in the shadows)

This - again - is why arbitrary "3/5" doesn't work. You're exposing highlights and shadows based on your creative vision/what you see. There's no "right" answer for everyone. Understanding what is meant by dynamic range and what it is you're trying to fit into it (that you can't get with one exposure) is what makes good* HDR photos. People who bracket for 3,5,7, or 9 without thinking then sling it into Photomatix & hit the sliders make bad* ones. I see a lot of HDRs that don't need to be (due to shallow dynamic range), or worse - that have had moody/atmospheric shadows lifted to bland-en the image.

*In my opinion!!

 

[gilbouk]

Meter for the shadows, meter for the highlights, then take one photo every stop in-between as a minimum. I've done half-stops and some people do third stops, but now I just do full stops as it makes no difference I can see.

Example:
Highlights, f11, ISO 100, 1/250sec
Shadows, f11, ISO 100, 1/10sec
(in this case keeping aperture the same for dof and ISO the same for quality)

Images taken at f11, ISO 100 then : 1/250sec, 1/125sec, 1/60sec, 1/30sec & 1/10sec for 5 shots in total. If the dynamic range was less (1/250 & 1/60 for example) you might need less overall photos. Using arbitrary numbers like 5 or 3 is no help because it depends on the scene. Bracketing is also "kinda ok" but you're hoping it starts in the middle and goes either side. Just take readings from your shadows and highlights and divvy up or down as you need. Shutter speed stops are quite easy to do in your head.

Nice advice!! I may just go with manually changing the shutter speed as you say between shots to 'fill' in the range for the shadows to the highlights. Will definitely give that a go - thanks!!

 

[gilbouk]

(..continuing after a bit of thought)
Looking at your images, #4 looks "highlight" best (not blown, nice detail) and *for me*, #3 is the best shadow exposure (#4 is too faded/bright in the shadows)

This - again - is why arbitrary "3/5" doesn't work. You're exposing highlights and shadows based on your creative vision/what you see. There's no "right" answer for everyone. Understanding what is meant by dynamic range and what it is you're trying to fit into it (that you can't get with one exposure) is what makes good* HDR photos. People who bracket for 3,5,7, or 9 without thinking then sling it into Photomatix & hit the sliders make bad* ones. I see a lot of HDRs that don't need to be (due to shallow dynamic range), or worse - that have had moody/atmospheric shadows lifted to bland-en the image.

*In my opinion!!

Yes, number 4 is my HDR image - shadows don't look as good as in #3, #2 is the best window exposure. Will try again to see if I can get the best of #3 and #2.

Ideally I want to paint the window of #2 into #3 and then I'd have what I want.

 

[john.margetts]

In small churches, I find two shots works best. The dynamic range is split between the very bright window and the rather dark interior with little between them, lightwise. In larger churches (certainly in a cathedral) there is more light inside in total and so more mid-range light so a larger number of shots is required.

I also find in-camera HDR (I have an EOS 80D) works rather well in a small church on a dull day.

 

[gilbouk]

In small churches, I find two shots works best. The dynamic range is split between the very bright window and the rather dark interior with little between them, lightwise. In larger churches (certainly in a cathedral) there is more light inside in total and so more mid-range light so a larger number of shots is required.

I also find in-camera HDR (I have an EOS 80D) works rather well in a small church on a dull day.

Do you manually take the photos rather than using the bracketing options in the camera as Harlequin565 does? Are you very careful not to move the camera while changing shutter speed?

 

[gilbouk]

My result after using Photomatix - certainly done a much better job of the window compared with Photoshop's HDR Pro - however I need to look at how to adjust the end result so it looks more realistic - it looks a tad oversaturated. There are lots of different presets to try,

HSC_3394_5_6_Balanced by Gilbo B, on Flickr
Capture by Gilbo B, on Flickr

 

[john.margetts]

Do you manually take the photos rather than using the bracketing options in the camera as Harlequin565 does? Are you very careful not to move the camera while changing shutter speed?

I have a large, very solid tripod and changing shutter speed will not move the camera one jot. Actually, I am currently trying out my Olympus Pen which will take one shot and produce three Raw files with differing ISO settings. This means that trees moving in the wind behind the windows has no effect. I have only just found out the Olympus can do this and I still need to fitness it.

 

[swanseamale47]

My method is 3 shots 2 stops apart, then photomatix with a preset of my own to suit my cameras( then tweak). I've tried 5 and 7 shots but 3 works best for me with my setup.
The problem with taking shots for the shadows/highlights is you can end up with a flat looking (unreal) image if your not carefull at the processing stage. IMHO Photoshops HDR is terrible.

 

[LongLensPhotography]

The best HDR approach is to avoid any tonemapping whatsoever.

Only Lightroom does it acceptably in some cases. Photoshop HDR feature is certainly to be avoided at all costs (it produces ghastly results)

A simple approach is to setup on tripod and bracket three shots. You need to make sure that NOTHING moves. That includes tripod, camera, shutter button shake, leaves, trees, people, cars, lights, etc. You can fix things by hand but its time consuming. The lowest exposure needs to have extreme highlight detail in, while the other two should cover enough to get clean shadow exposure. (-1.5 / 0 / +1.5) or (-2 / 0 / +2) are good places to start.

You'd ideally want a little bit of light in the church.

Then you can do LR HDR merge. This gives you file that looks just like middle exposure, with less noise in the shadows and it will recover highlights better.
I generally start by setting the exposure for the bulk of the shot which would be the church walls. (+1.5 / +2 here at least).
I like to add radial filters for 20-25% highlight recovery around the windows with pretty much 90-100% feathering. The rest is via global shadow / highlight / exposure control, and maybe one grad filter if one side is significantly darker.
You can do all of this manually via combining layers in PS.
Remember that white still needs to be white (not grey!) so go easy with the recovery sliders!

Don't forget the verticals. It looks very wonky.

 

[john.margetts]

Don't forget the verticals. It looks very wonky.

The trouble with very old cathedrals is that 1) they are very old and 2) the builders were usually experimenting. I do not know Paisley Abbey, but I do know Lincoln Cathedral very well. You will be hard put to find a vertical anywhere and the two west towers are leaning apart at the terrifying angle.