Help needed please :)

stuartgreen

stuartgreen

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Stuart
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Before I start I couldn't find a section that best describes what I'm wanting help with so I thought I'd post in here if it the wrong section please let me know :),
Well i will start from the beginning here, a couple of years ago some very good friends of mine who own a bakery asked me to take pictures of some new stock for there website and catalogues as they paid a lot of money for a pro to come for a day but then added 3 or 4 new cakes they wanted to add to the current products, nothing fancy from me as the pro took all the pictures in a certain place on a chopping board that we could copy and I took 30-40 shots to get the best ones they wanted and you couldn't tell the difference between what he had done and what I had done (simply because I copied what he had done) well now they are re designing some leaflets that need up dating with there new packaging they have changed to, the pictures I took last time where just un wrapped cakes and it was easy really so I'm wanting advise on the best way to photograph these item that will be wrapped up in plastic, will I need to run a slave flash or will the one flash on camera be enough? I've got till Thursday to get as much advise as I can so hope someone can help me get the best from what I have.

Thanks in advance

Stuart
 
For me the best answer is if you don't know how to shoot it... then don't. Its impossible to tell you how to shoot any product without seeing the product the setup your equipment and many many other varibles that will possibly need to be worked out at the time.

I have to say this seems like one of them we don't want to hire a pro but lets ask the pros how to do it situations.

However i would say to get a couple of lights. Off camera speed lights may or may not do the job. Reflectors or plain white card will come in very handy for controlling reflection on the plastic also.
 
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That's the thing I've told them that this isn't my style of photography and it's all new to me, the reply I got was that what ever I took would be fine, I just want to know if anybody has any tips of taking photos of cakes in packaging lol,trial and error will probably be the best way but a little heads up always helps :)
 
asphotographymk said:
For me the best answer is if you don't know how to shoot it... then don't.
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Seems a little bit of a harsh answer there. I thought the point of this forum was to help people learn and improve. I believe that the only way to learn is to practice and try new things not just leave it to the professionals.

Yes people do ask for pro's advice because they aspire to be as good as them.
 
You can always refuse if you don't think you can do it. There is no shame is saying no. If i was commisioned to shoot landscapes or wildlife i would say no and recommend someone who can help. Before anyone gets all shirty about it that is me giving genuine advice if you don't know how to do something just pass it on.

Finding someone who has experience in shooting cakes in plastic is a little long shot but i have shot lots of items in plastic and the fact is how you will light depend on the item. The type of plastic - the shape - the size - the style/look you want so many things. What you need is to get a very detailed brief and work from there. The thing is with any shoot you need to think on your feet. If i plan something i never end up shooting it that way.
 
Frey said:
Seems a little bit of a harsh answer there. I thought the point of this forum was to help people learn and improve. I believe that the only way to learn is to practice and try new things not just leave it to the professionals.

Yes people do ask for pro's advice because they aspire to be as good as them.
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It may seem harsh but its my honest advice. How about you take into account the other advice i have also given regardless of the fact i think a pro should be shooting this.

Aspire to be like a pro.. thats great.. learn and improve to be your best even better but a post that says a company has used a pro in the past then the op ripped off that pros work in resulting taking away there future business ... i am sorry if my reaction to that is harsh.:bonk:

Yet i still have offered some very good advice on equipment despite my feelings on this.
 
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asphotographymk said:
It may seem harsh but its my honest advice. How about you take into account the other advice i have also given regardless of the fact i think a pro should be shooting this.

Aspire to be like a pro.. thats great.. learn and improve to be your best even better but a post that says a company has used a pro in the past then the op ripped off that pros work in resulting taking away there future business ... i am sorry if my reaction to that is harsh.:bonk:
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I have Adgreed with what your saying :)
 
Originally Posted by Frey
Seems a little bit of a harsh answer there. I thought the point of this forum was to help people learn and improve. I believe that the only way to learn is to practice and try new things not just leave it to the professionals.

Yes people do ask for pro's advice because they aspire to be as good as them.
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asphotographymk said:
It may seem harsh but its my honest advice. How about you take into account the other advice i have also given regardless of the fact i think a pro should be shooting this.

Aspire to be like a pro.. thats great.. learn and improve to be your best even better but a post that says a company has used a pro in the past then the op ripped off that pros work in resulting taking away there future business ... i am sorry if my reaction to that is harsh.:bonk:

Yet i still have offered some very good advice on equipment despite my feelings on this.
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This is absolutely the correct advice. Part of being a good photographer - or a good anything, really - is knowing when you are out of depth. And having the guts to admit it.
 
No I understand where you are coming from but I see shying away isn't the answer here for me, I've made it clear to them that this isn't something I know how to do but I assure them that I can do better than they could using a point and shoot, I have practised at home using similar item to what they have and am pleased with the results but is just like advise on equipment others use, I've lost nothing if they all turn out terrible as I've told them that I can't guarantee work like a pro but am willing for myself and for them to go for free on my day off and see what we can do, if I don't try and learn I'm never going to achieve anything. :) I do appreciate your input and understand what your saying but if things don't go as planned they can contact the man who came last time and am sure he will improve on me, they have till the end of march to get the photos to the designer so there's plenty of time if I can't do what they are expecting!
 
jon ryan said:
This is absolutely the correct advice. Part of being a good photographer - or a good anything, really - is knowing when you are out of depth. And having the guts to admit it.
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This I understand and maybe not explained my situation in full but there is plenty of time to correct any mishaps I make but I'm wanting to give it my best for them and was hoping for some advise on how to achieve it!
 
Thats the best advice i can give. Just a shame that after you "copied " the photographers work he has now lost out on a job. The professional in me almost hopes you make a balls up of it so he gets his work back if i am very honest.

Advice above. Depends on the product how you will light it but your going to need a couple of off camera lights and reflectors to really do it right.
 
Andy is absolutely right, pass on it, and advise your friends to get an experienced product photographer to help them is the best you can do for them.

I'm not saying that to be harsh, or anything else, but at the end of the day your friend is using the photographs to advertise his business, and great photos mean better sales for him. On this basis it'd be better for him to pay someone to do it.
 
Originally Posted by jon ryan

This is absolutely the correct advice. Part of being a good photographer - or a good anything, really - is knowing when you are out of depth. And having the guts to admit it.
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stuartgreen said:
This I understand and maybe not explained my situation in full but there is plenty of time to correct any mishaps I make but I'm wanting to give it my best for them and was hoping for some advise on how to achieve it!
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Well, I'd start by looking at some published work. Note background, camera angle and light direction. See if you can spot the depth of field variations. With wrapped items, you're likely to get some weird reflections (do the cakes have to be wrapped? All of them? Are they selling wrappers or cakes, is the question I'd ask!).

I don't play golf, but if you gave me a ball and a golf bat, I reckon I could give it a fair whack, best out of three. It's a bit like that, really.
 
asphotographymk said:
Thats the best advice i can give. Just a shame that after you "copied " the photographers work he has now lost out on a job. The professional in me almost hopes you make a balls up of it so he gets his work back if i am very honest.

Advice above. Depends on the product how you will light it but your going to need a couple of off camera lights and reflectors to really do it right.
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Thanks for your advise and i won't take the bitter part in to account as I've said before if I don't do it correctly it's no loss to anyone but if I can save some money for a small business run by two people who might aswell be my parents for what they have done for me in the past years then I'll be more than happy :)
 
jon ryan said:
Well, I'd start by looking at some published work. Note background, camera angle and light direction. See if you can spot the depth of field variations. With wrapped items, you're likely to get some weird reflections (do the cakes have to be wrapped? All of them? Are they selling wrappers or cakes, is the question I'd ask!).

I don't play golf, but if you gave me a ball and a golf bat, I reckon I could give it a fair whack, best out of three. It's a bit like that, really.
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Basically they have just redesigned there packing and the last shoot done by the pro was of all the products un wrapped so they just what one or two shots showing the new packing style they have used, I'd say 95% will be the original pictures from "pro" shoot, they just want me to do as I did when they introduced the new cakes and take a few shots of the new design :)
 
stuartgreen said:
Basically they have just redesigned there packing and the last shoot done by the pro was of all the products un wrapped so they just what one or two shots showing the new packing style they have used, I'd say 95% will be the original pictures from "pro" shoot, they just want me to do as I did when they introduced the new cakes and take a few shots of the new design :)
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Good luck!
 
stuartgreen said:
Thanks for your advise and i won't take the bitter part in to account as I've said before if I don't do it correctly it's no loss to anyone but if I can save some money for a small business run by two people who might aswell be my parents for what they have done for me in the past years then I'll be more than happy :)
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its not bitter its reality. You dont have a clue how to shoot this. Even the basics of how to light it. Surly you can see the best option is to pass it on to a local pro.
 
stuartgreen said:
Thanks :) I see it as if you don't try your never going to learn
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True.

asphotographymk said:
its not bitter its reality. You dont have a clue how to shoot this. Even the basics of how to light it. Surly you can see the best option is to pass it on to a local pro.
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Would you have become a successful photographer if you'd listened to that sort of advice when you were staring out? As things stand, I'd say that a pro will be needed to produce shots of the necessary standard, and I hope that by having a go, Stuart will be off on a good learning curve by seeing for himself how difficult this sort of photography is. And who knows? He may turn out to be the best food photographer on the planet! :D How else can he find out?
 
Too few professional photographers understand what small businesses need. I've seen several hire a photographer once and then say never again. Fundementally, in all the cases I know, it came down to a complete failure in communications and the photographer delivering what they wanted and not understanding what the client wanted.


Stuart - go for it, ask if you can borrow(?) a packaged cake and take it home, spend the week working out what you're doing and practicing. Read LS&M, it's the bible for this sort of thing.
 
jon ryan said:
True.

Would you have become a successful photographer if you'd listened to that sort of advice when you were staring out? As things stand, I'd say that a pro will be needed to produce shots of the necessary standard, and I hope that by having a go, Stuart will be off on a good learning curve by seeing for himself how difficult this sort of photography is. And who knows? He may turn out to be the best food photographer on the planet! :D How else can he find out?
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Now now far from it, my on passion for food is eating lol! :)
 
Alastair said:
Too few professional photographers understand what small businesses need. I've seen several hire a photographer once and then say never again. Fundementally, in all the cases I know, it came down to a complete failure in communications and the photographer delivering what they wanted and not understanding what the client wanted.

Stuart - go for it, ask if you can borrow(?) a packaged cake and take it home, spend the week working out what you're doing and practicing. Read LS&M, it's the bible for this sort of thing.
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Alastair, first off thanks just the advise I needed, I have asked for a selection of the cakes in question to be dropped off at my house when the van is passing for me to test out and try and see how it's all going to work, and I will check out the link as soon as I get to my desktop :)
 
Alastair said:
Too few professional photographers understand what small businesses need. I've seen several hire a photographer once and then say never again. Fundementally, in all the cases I know, it came down to a complete failure in communications and the photographer delivering what they wanted and not understanding what the client wanted.
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I think you will find photogrpahers with a decent level of commercial experience will be very good at following a brief.

jon ryan said:
True.



Would you have become a successful photographer if you'd listened to that sort of advice when you were staring out?
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Listening to that sort of advice is what got me to the position i am now. I would pass it on to a pro and ask the pro if i could assist the shoot. Learn more that way than just going in blind. I guess the worst part for me here is they they outright copied the pros work once already.

I have to say mind, the pro couldnt in this case have done a great job if it was that simple to copy.

To the OP. Why not post some of the last shots you did on here and we can give you a bit of advice based on them. I know it will be a little different but we can atleast let you know where you need to improve?
 
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I'll see if they can email me one of his and one of mine from last time for you to see, I do understand your comment but they paid over £1000 for a day and a half of the pros time with them photographing the produce the staff and the location and being such a small firm advertising funds can't sway to this being paid out again so soon after the last time and if I can save them a few quid I try my hardest too.
I think if I'd been less honest in my first post I'd of had alot less bitter reply's.
 
Alastair said:
Too few professional photographers understand what small businesses need. I've seen several hire a photographer once and then say never again. Fundementally, in all the cases I know, it came down to a complete failure in communications and the photographer delivering what they wanted and not understanding what the client wanted.


Stuart - go for it, ask if you can borrow(?) a packaged cake and take it home, spend the week working out what you're doing and practicing. Read LS&M, it's the bible for this sort of thing.
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I would say that a bit unfair on most pro,i trained hard to be a pro.
Once i was called in by a small business,to do a job that was very ungent,a big contract was rideing on getting the photos right,it was working with 16x12 negs,on a rail camera,some of the lads their thought they could do the job,because they done a bit of photographer,but they couldnt.
I got the job done,and they got the contract.
Their more to being a pro,than just oweing a camera :)
 
asphotographymk said:
I think you will find photogrpahers with a decent level of commercial experience will be very good at following a brief.
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Most probably are. But my (limited) experience is that larger businesses that understand photography and the process of defining a brief get along well with professional photographers. But the when it's small businesses there's an almost mutual misunderstanding. Clients struggle to specify how simple a service they want, and the photographers struggle to understand why it doesn't have to be complicated/perfectionist*.

There is a gap in the photography to small businesses market, but maybe it needs an unconventional service structure (for photography) to meet it. As I see it, the gap is around "little and often" where small businesses need rapid turnaround (probably not next-day critical, but "by the end of teh week") on extremely small jobs just to keep websites, blogs and newsfeeds up-to-date with minor changes in product line-up, etc. Think of it as live stock photography, microstock isn't personal enough to the business but a full-on studio shoot is over-kill. If a bakery wants to introduce a new cupcake for Valantine's day they don't want an hour of studio time, they want someone in and out with no mucking about. And because this service is quite predictable for this type of business, they probably want a monthly retainer contract model with an agreed SLA.

Maybe there are professional photographers offering this service, but small businesses I see regularly aren't aware of this.. or these services aren't being provided in the market towns and villages where many of these small businesses are based - I know where I could get this type of photography done in Norwich, but in King's Lynn, Swaffham or Fakenham?


* I can relate the story of a small business owner who has a lot of demands on his time, and who's time is very precious to the business, who had a portrait taken for the website and brochure in a woodworking shop. The shoot took an hour. For 45 minutes of that hour the business owner stood there whilst the photographer re-arranged wood shavings on the workbench. This is how the small business owner tells it every time he tells the story (so it's the only version that's important). And he tells it to anyone and everyone that mentions phtoography, marketing brochures, etc. The photographer will never be used by that business again. Did I mention the client talks a lot about the experience?
 
Well i would say that 60% of my commercial clients are small businesses many are infact sole traders. I cant say i have ever had an issue with misunderstanding there brief or them misunderstanding what i am providing. Yes if they book me they will get quality, yes if there are wood shavings around that need to be cleared they will be cleared, if the product needs cleaning it will be cleaned and i will aim to provide them with the same standards as i would provide a blue chip. Thats a good thing not a bad thing. Thats why they come back to me not the reason they stay away. If a client was critical at me for providing a thorough job i dont think i would want them as a client again anyway but as it happens almost all commercial clients are regular and happy with what i offer.

Often with smaller businesses you will have to hold there hand while taking the brief and ask the right questions but you get there. I just spend almost an hour on the phone to a sole trader getting there brief for what is a very small shoot.
 
asphotographymk said:
Often with smaller businesses you will have to hold there hand while taking the brief and ask the right questions but you get there. I just spend almost an hour on the phone to a sole trader getting there brief for what is a very small shoot.
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Shame you're not more local then, or there's not more like you :D

.. the wood shavings weren't being cleared, they were being arranged ..
 
But again maybe the photographer felt he needer that time,to do his job ?

Or if you look at it the other way round,if the photographer had turn up at the workshop,and asked him to do somthing,and it took longer than the photographer expected,he could just as easly have turn round,I am not using that bloke again,he took ages :shrug:

This is alway going to happen,people alway think their job harder than anyone else's,and they could do it in better :)
 
Alastair said:
Shame you're not more local then, or there's not more like you :D

.. the wood shavings weren't being cleared, they were being arranged ..
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Ok arranging wood shavings does sound a little extreme butmay have been someone trying to stretch a job out, your going to get people like that in all industry's.
. Or maybe the client exaggerated and the photographer was just doing what he needed to get the shot
I dont think i have ever met a good commercial photographer like that so i am sure there are plenty more out there.

O and Kings lynn is only about an hour and half from me so i can always cover that area. Of course i do charge travel mind.
 
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asphotographymk said:
O and Kings lynn is only about an hour and half from me so i can always cover that area. Of course i do charge travel mind.
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That's the thing.. the "Bob in Accounts" stuff tends to be little and often, not worth the bother of someone more than 20 mins across town. Your mileage costs can be more than the client values the difference between a pro and a keen amatuer at. One cake in a packet, for a photo that doesn't have to be perfect just good enough for a 120 pixel image on a website and or two inches in a printed catalogue.

It's like £100 wedding photography.. it exists simply because there are people that can't afford any more or for whom it's simply not that important in the grand scheme of things, they're not a low budget just to spite the profession of photography. Roll with it, deal with it, work out your own strategy to profit from it.. and remember that Henry Ford was richer than Rolls and Royce combined..
 
asphotographymk said:
Ok arranging wood shavings does sound a little extreme butmay have been someone trying to stretch a job out, your going to get people like that in all industry's.
. Or maybe the client exaggerated and the photographer was just doing what he needed to get the shot
I dont think i have ever met a good commercial photographer like that so i am sure there are plenty more out there.

O and Kings lynn is only about an hour and half from me so i can always cover that area. Of course i do charge travel mind.
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Or maybe the client exaggerated,yes we have only heard one side of the story :)
 
Well today was d day for the photo-shoot and all went really well, bit more work than i expected really, turns out that i had ever single product to shoot (over 100 cakes) set up at dinner time and took about 80 pictures till we found a new location and style that we all agreed on (just to keep the ones who hoped id make a mess happy, i informed them i wanted to be creative myself and set up my own style) and just one picture of each item and a few group pictures and all went well! :) both parties really pleased with the end results and as a added bonus been told i will now be doing all there photography work they have in the future :) Happy Days
 
I will put one up now so you can see what i have done, all the photo's are uniform same back drop on the same chopping board just different products.
 
Would you like crituqe or not. I don't like to give it unless its wanted but seen as your going to do more it may be helpful for you. Not just from me but from everyone here.
 
asphotographymk said:
Would you like crituqe or not. I don't like to give it unless its wanted but seen as your going to do more it may be helpful for you. Not just from me but from everyone here.
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Aslong as its not that you think I've balls'd up and how right you were :lol:


Yes please, as you say I'm going to be doing more and if i can improve thats great :) fire away
 
The positives..
- I like cake

The negatives..
- the lighting is rather flat
- the white background is grey
- the chopping board is scratched and discoloured

I'm afraid it doesn't make me want to go out and buy one of these cakes. But I wouldn't personally choose to shoot them all in the packets.
 
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