HELP - Portable lighting for events and portraits

Mattpitts74

Mattpitts74

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Matt
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Hi Guys,

I'm in the process of trying to research a suitable portable light for, for charity sports events such as cycle rides and runs, which are often at night, the odd wedding and for portraits of kids and families, either outdoor and their homes. My only real experience so far with flash is using my Canon speedlights, which I generally use off camera, shooting through a softbox which is fine, but there are times when the recycle time is too slow and the power is limited. I guess what I'm after is some lights that can be used flexibly.

So I have been looking at options and would appreciate some suggestions. My initial thought was just to go for a traditional 2 head mains powers setup, as I was expected to mainly use the lights for portraits sessions at peoples homes. But when I started looking I hadn't realised that there are so many portable options now available This make me think if I have battery powered units I have the flexibility to use them at events, weddings and for more controlled portrait sessions.

I'm aware that there seem to be a lot of very good value systems now available from Godox, Pixrpro and the like, but many people seem to suggest these units can be rather inconsistent in their light output and colour? There seems to a very large jump in price between these brands and something like the Profoto B1/B2 options.

So I have a couple of specific questions

1. Is the Profoto really worth that money? or can I get something with similar quality light output for less money?
2. If i'm doing kids for family photos can I get away with a single light or would I be better off using two?
3. Should I just stick with the off camera speedlights?

I'm happy to invest in a decent lighting setup, as I'd rather buy something that will last and can be easily moved, packed and setup quickly and is simple to use when your under pressure to get shots relatively quickly.

Any advice and suggestions will be gratefully received.
 
The fact that you mention sports in your subject mix means that you should also have a look at German manufacturer "Priolite". I've been using one of their battery power 500w "Hot Sync" heads and have added a couple of their "Hoy Sync Ultra" recently.
They'll sync up to 1/8000th second without any power reduction, seem to be well engineered and take a variety of fittings.

Bob
 
Mattpitts74 said:
So I have a couple of specific questions

1. Is the Profoto really worth that money? or can I get something with similar quality light output for less money?
2. If i'm doing kids for family photos can I get away with a single light or would I be better off using two?
3. Should I just stick with the off camera speedlights?

I'm happy to invest in a decent lighting setup, as I'd rather buy something that will last and can be easily moved, packed and setup quickly and is simple to use when your under pressure to get shots relatively quickly.

Any advice and suggestions will be gratefully received.
Click to expand...

1. The Profoto is 'worth the money' if you prize buying a brand over buying something that works. It's like comparing BMW with Kia, they'll both get you to Scarborough for fish and chips but only one of them gets you there with a smug smile. But for the real Kia analogy, make sure you buy from somewhere with a decent warranty. Just to add 'light quality' is a function of modifiers and skill, not make of light.
2. It's all about your personal requirements, one light can do a lot outdoors (though clearly that means you're using 2) in a 'portable studio' environment you need as many lights as you 'need' but they don't all need to be the same power / spec.
3. Speedlights can do a lot, but there's also lots they're not great for. They're not powerful enough to 'overpower' midday sun for use outdoors*, in a studio environment they're not the fastest to recycle, and they lack modelling lights. They're also not designed to fill a softbox or light a beauty dish, those modifiers are built with the expectation of a bare bulb.

* there's lots of interesting stuff you can do without that kind of power but it's nice to have.

If I had money to invest, or was starting from scratch, I'd go to Pixapro and get an AD600, and an AD360II then some Godox speedlights so everything works seamlessly together.
 
Listen to @Phil V. He is the light MASTER. Like a kind of lighting version of the Jedi, Yoda. (Although I'm assuming a lot less green and wrinkly!)
 
Mattpitts74 said:
1. Is the Profoto really worth that money? or can I get something with similar quality light output for less money?
2. If i'm doing kids for family photos can I get away with a single light or would I be better off using two?
3. Should I just stick with the off camera speedlights?

I'm happy to invest in a decent lighting setup, as I'd rather buy something that will last and can be easily moved, packed and setup quickly and is simple to use when your under pressure to get shots relatively quickly.

Any advice and suggestions will be gratefully received.
Click to expand...

Sorry but you are asking the wrong question.

4. Can Godox etc. do all that I need? Answer http://www.dorsetphotoevent.co.uk/godox-flash-event-photographers/ and a large number of event photographers I know are making or have made the switch to Godox from a wide range of brands, why? Because it does what is needed at non-silly prices. Nowt wrong with Profoto (wel actually there are a few things) but for the price of one profoto batter head you can have a complete Godox setup

Mike
 
Thanks guys for your input, it sounds like I need to look at the Godox then, what about the inconsistency of light output that people seem to mention in various places? Is this really much of an issue?

Also what about modifiers? Which one is a good starting point?
 
I don't know where you've read about the inconsistency, I hang around a couple of lighting forums and the only issue I'm aware of is with TTL on Sony.

Modifiers? Again, it really depends what you want to achieve, as a general purpose starting point, I like a big Octa, but lots of people will say that a bigger light source is as capable of causing issues as one thats too small.

Maybe a Bessel 120 Octa with a 4cm grid.

But I recently bought the Lencarta folding Beauty dish. I've not had a play yet (life getting in the way) but that'll work as a BD and a softbox, is nice and round and has a grid. I plan to do a full test shortly.
 
Graham W said:
Just get on with it! :)
I love mine as a lighting tool and for it's build quality and portability, but I don't have much experience with this sort of thing to draw comparisons.
Click to expand...
When I test mine I'll do comparisons and post here. I've got a lot of busy weekends coming up though :( it'll probably be mid-Feb I'll line up a couple of 'willing' models.
 
Mattpitts74 said:
1. Is the Profoto really worth that money? or can I get something with similar quality light output for less money?
Click to expand...

The advantage of Profoto isn't really the quality of light, it's availability. If you need a new unit you can go to plenty of shops to source them, if you need a repair there's a few place to get that taken care of in the UK relatively quickly, if you need to rent something every major rental shop carries most of their range and the same can't be said for many other popular brands.

That's not to say I'm recommending Profoto to you, I think they're a bad choice for someone's first set of lights when buying new unless money is no object but there are reasons beyond how effective they are as a product alone to consider.
 
simonbarker said:
The advantage of Profoto isn't really the quality of light, it's availability. If you need a new unit you can go to plenty of shops to source them, if you need a repair there's a few place to get that taken care of in the UK relatively quickly, if you need to rent something every major rental shop carries most of their range and the same can't be said for many other popular brands.

That's not to say I'm recommending Profoto to you, I think they're a bad choice for someone's first set of lights when buying new unless money is no object but there are reasons beyond how effective they are as a product alone to consider.
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If money were no object I'd go for the Profoto, but as always money is a consideration, and all the Profoto modifiers look pretty expensive too. but I take your point about repair and availability. I'm guessing that buying from PixaPro and the like at least is better than buying via eBay or Amazon?
 
Canon Bob said:
The fact that you mention sports in your subject mix means that you should also have a look at German manufacturer "Priolite". I've been using one of their battery power 500w "Hot Sync" heads and have added a couple of their "Hoy Sync Ultra" recently.
They'll sync up to 1/8000th second without any power reduction, seem to be well engineered and take a variety of fittings.

Bob
Click to expand...

Take Priolite's claims with a pinch of salt. No loss of power with the Hot Sync at 1/8000sec? Not true - big loss of power, though less than pulsed high-speed sync with the right camera, set up optimally*. And significant darkening up the frame (better/worse depending on the camera and shutter speed combination).

Priolite Hot Sync uses the tail-sync technique above normal x-sync speed, that dates back to flash bulbs. Same as the Elinchrom Quadra HS, though it can be done with any flash unit - the difference with the Priolite and Elinchrom is the voltage-regulated power (as opposed to IGBT) with an extra-long flash duration to minimise darkening up the frame, but they certainly don't eliminate it. Fast cameras (faster shutter blinds) like Canon 1D4/1DX and Nikon D4/5 also reduce darkening, slower cameras (eg Canon 5D3/6D, Pentax 645!) emphasise it. Tail-sync works well outdoors where the ambient light conceals the brightness fall-off, but poorly in the studio where the lack of ambient and plain backgrounds shows it up. Auto-TTL exposure is not possible with voltage-regulated flash, only with IGBT power control.

*Does the Priolite remote allow adjustment of shutter sync timing like the Elinchrom Skyport HS? It's an almost vital feature to make the most of tail-sync. Skyport HS can be made to work with any brand of flash I think, and most brands of camera (not Pentax or Fuji).


Back to the OP - Godox has got most things right ATM, with a great range of high-spec products going from speedlights through to location/battery flash and mains/studio. And they all use the same remote control/trigger which is a major practical advantage over the confusing mix 'n' match alternatives. They've made a big splash in what is generally a quite slow-evolving sector, though currently lack local service support. When that happens, the established brands had better watch out.
 
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HoppyUK said:
Take Priolite's claims with a pinch of salt. No loss of power with the Hot Sync at 1/8000sec? Not true - big loss of power,
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I'm not sure how this power loss manifests itself. If I set up the lights to get the correct exposure at 1/250th, f/8 and iso100 then change to 1/2000th f/8 at iso800 I get the same exposure. So why don't I need to increase the output of the heads?

Typical monoblocs have a pulse duration of 1/1000th-1/2000th and this is/can be advantageous when using slower shutter speeds. The Priolite's duration is in the region of 1/200th.....not ideal at slower shutter speeds but adequately covers the travel time of typical shutter curtains.


HoppyUK said:
*Does the Priolite remote allow adjustment of shutter sync timing like the Elinchrom Skyport HS? It's an almost vital feature to make the most of tail-sync. Skyport HS can be made to work with any brand of flash I think, and most brands of camera (not Pentax or Fuji).
Click to expand...
Yes, the sync timing can be adjusted for the different delays.

Bob
 
I agree w/ getting Godox (or one of the many rebrands). For the outdoor/action stuff I think you're going to want the AD600, maybe a couple. Just about *any* battery powered source is going to take at least 2-3 sec to recycle from a full pop, and that might be too long for a cycle race. But if you have enough power (light) to run them at a reduced setting you can get 2-4 exposures from a single charge (and it will be recharging at the same time).

Indoors... the AD600 is likely to be much more than you need, maybe too much. I don't think they have been released yet, but I would consider a couple of AD200's to go with the 600. If you already have speedlight adaptors/modifiers/etc it should be an easy transition. I do like the AD360 quite a bit, but it's a bit of a cludge as a studio light and as a speedlight.
 
Phil V said:
Thanks but see above...
Richard @HoppyUK has actual sciency knowledge of all this stuff.
Click to expand...

Haha Cheers Phil :) There are a few folks around here who know how this stuff works, but the technology and how it all interacts with the camera is complex and confusing. Manufacturers seem to play on that or maybe it's my imagination, but this forum has had good cause to question marketing claims from the likes of Profoto and Elinchrom recently, and I'd add Priolite to that list.

On the other hand, Godox (and Yongnuo for that matter) has gained huge market traction in a very short time from little more than good products at keen prices plus enthusiastic feedback from forums like this, DPReview and POTN etc. Godox seems to be in touch with where we're going with flash these days and technology is leading to an exciting time with possibilities undreamed of just a few years ago, outdoors in particular. Just look at what's been announced since Xmas! http://flashhavoc.com/
 
Canon Bob said:
I'm not sure how this power loss manifests itself. If I set up the lights to get the correct exposure at 1/250th, f/8 and iso100 then change to 1/2000th f/8 at iso800 I get the same exposure. So why don't I need to increase the output of the heads?
Click to expand...
Tail sync shows as a loss of light across the frame (following the shutter). If you start with a black image of a light/uniform surface, and then add your light so that nothing overexposes you will/should see the falloff.
 
Canon Bob said:
I'm not sure how this power loss manifests itself. If I set up the lights to get the correct exposure at 1/250th, f/8 and iso100 then change to 1/2000th f/8 at iso800 I get the same exposure. So why don't I need to increase the output of the heads?
Click to expand...

Then you must already be above normal x-sync speed at 1/250sec, as most cameras would be. In which case, you shouldn't see a significant change in exposure, more subtle shifts in the nature of the fall-off up the frame. Same as with normal pulsed HSS in other words, but that would be without the fall-off (usually!). The big drop in brightness occurs when you switch from under normal x-sync shutter speed to above - it's unavoidable. Try shooting a plain wall, with no significant ambient light, and run through all the shutter speeds.

Typical monoblocs have a pulse duration of 1/1000th-1/2000th and this is/can be advantageous when using slower shutter speeds. The Priolite's duration is in the region of 1/200th.....not ideal at slower shutter speeds but adequately covers the travel time of typical shutter curtains.
Click to expand...

Flash (pulse) durations vary a lot depending on how you measure them. Most monoblocs in the 500-1000Ws category are longer than 1/1000-1/2000sec, and many are much longer. TBH Bob, Priolite's claim of 1/200sec t.5 looks like a nice round marketing number, and they claim the same figure for both 500Ws and 1000Ws Hot Sync heads, which would be uncharacteristic. Whatever, it's surely longer than usual (though not by a factor of ten!) but the problem for general photography is that the light is not constant and fades during the shutter cycle.

If Priolite is going to make these claims, then they need to give far more hard information. I can find very little on their website, or elsewhere. Maybe I'm missing something, but either Priolite is the best kept secret in flash photography, or it's not.

Yes, the sync timing can be adjusted for the different delays.

Bob
Click to expand...

Cool (y) Why isn't that critical information upfront?
 
HoppyUK said:
They've made a big splash in what is generally a quite slow-evolving sector, though currently lack local service support. When that happens, the established brands had better watch out.
Click to expand...

There are to the best of my knowledge 4 companies that sell part or most of the Godox products after legitimately importing so dealer warranty support is available. What is needed is expert independent repair for out of warranty and items not purchased through the dealer chain.

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
There are to the best of my knowledge 4 companies that sell part or most of the Godox products after legitimately importing so dealer warranty support is available. What is needed is expert independent repair for out of warranty and items not purchased through the dealer chain.

Mike
Click to expand...
Has anyone had a Godox repaired? From what little I know from rebuilding a battery pack, they don't seem to be constructed with particularly high spec components, and like most electronics today they aren't very "serviceable" (i.e. SMD boards). I suspect that they are almost "disposable" in that major service isn't cost effective.
 
HoppyUK said:
If Priolite is going to make these claims, then they need to give far more hard information. I can find very little on their website, or elsewhere. Maybe I'm missing something, but either Priolite is the best kept secret in flash photography, or it's not.

Cool (y) Why isn't that critical information upfront?
Click to expand...

Documentation is their strong point, I'll agree. I struggled to find much in the way of technical info before I got them and the "User guides" are very rudimentary.....little more than photocopied sheets.

I guess that battery monoblocs have gone off in two diverging directions. Priolite have designed for fast sync capability and Profoto and others have gone for the iTTL/E-TTL user market.

An interesting side point......
I've had an email discussion with Sekonic as my Sekonic meters (758's) don't act linearly with multiple Priolite heads! It seems that Sekonic reads the output for 1/1000th second (slow enough to cover the pulse duration of most heads) and this means that they conclude the measurement whilst the flash tubes are still emitting light.available for the exposure. Sekonic have previously avoided trying to measure HSS pulsed output but are developing a new breed of meter to cater for the longer duration pulses utilised by the likes of Priolite.
 
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Canon Bob said:
Sekonic have previously avoided trying to measure HSS pulsed output but are developing a new breed of meter to cater for the longer duration pulses utilised by the likes of Priolite.
Click to expand...


Keep up Bob, they have developed a new meter, the 858, saw it at Photokina last year and again at the SWPP show this year

Mike
 
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sk66 said:
Has anyone had a Godox repaired? From what little I know from rebuilding a battery pack, they don't seem to be constructed with particularly high spec components, and like most electronics today they aren't very "serviceable" (i.e. SMD boards). I suspect that they are almost "disposable" in that major service isn't cost effective.
Click to expand...

Whilst the batteries are relatively cheap the heads like the AD600 are not, having had one apart I would class them as easy to repair if you can get the parts.

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
Keep up Bob, they have devolved a new meter, the 858, saw it at Photokina last year and again at the SWPP show this year

Mike
Click to expand...
It's less than a month since their tech support told me that the meter for measuring slow pulses is under developement.....does the 858 do this then, Mike?
 
mike weeks said:
Yes

It was announced in September http://flashhavoc.com/sekonic-speedmaster-l-858d-announced/

Mike
Click to expand...
I'll get back them....it may be that the 858 is capable of measuring Speedlight pulsed output but not long duration steady state. I contacted them in late December when my additional Priolites turned up....I wasn't aware that my 758 wasn't performing until I had multiple lights to meter. Looking at the 858 spec shows that it omits a specific feature that was detailed in the emails so maybe a 958 is on the horizon.
 
mike weeks said:
There are to the best of my knowledge 4 companies that sell part or most of the Godox products after legitimately importing so dealer warranty support is available. What is needed is expert independent repair for out of warranty and items not purchased through the dealer chain.

Mike
Click to expand...
Personally, I can't see that happening in the forseeable future.
For this to happen, Godox will need to set up an authorised dealer network (on per country or perhaps one per continent initially) which they have been talking about for a long time, but which still hasn't happened, and for those dealers to be supplied with
1. Parts
2. Training
3. Technical drawings.
Parts are easy enough, training won't be cheap but is do-able, but unless and until
(a) Godox trusts third party Companies with their technical drawings and (b) third party Companies trust Godox to honour agreements made with them, it's a non-starter.

I happen to know of one British Company that has the full technical ability to carry out repairs, but they are limited to repairing products made for them to their own spec, i.e. they can't repair any other products of that make. Because of this, other Companies that sell their products are unable to repair them, and as a result of this are unable to offer a warranty that offers a real safeguard to their customers, i.e. they can only offer the very limited warranty that Godox itself provides. Fortunately for these Companies, the vast majority of their customers don't read the small print....

Let's be clear about this, Godox products are not cheap, they are just sold cheaply by internet retailers because they sell to everyone, so an unknown number of sellers are competing with each other for pennies, and most of those sellers evade duties and VAT. So, even if a repair service ever became available, it might not go down well with internet buyers who have bought cheaply
 
Canon Bob said:
No, the x-sync of a 1Dx/1DxMkII is 1/250th.
Click to expand...

In which case, your comment as posted earlier cannot be right.

Canon Bob said:
Documentation is their strong point, I'll agree. I struggled to find much in the way of technical info before I got them and the "User guides" are very rudimentary.....little more than photocopied sheets.

I guess that battery monoblocs have gone off in two diverging directions. Priolite have designed for fast sync capability and Profoto and others have gone for the iTTL/E-TTL user market.
Click to expand...

I would say they broadly divide into conventional voltage-regulated flash vs IGBT-regulated, and the latter has greater all-round potential. It tackles high shutter speeds with pulsed HSS, and adds very fast flash durations and auto-TTL flash exposure metering to the list.

An interesting side point......
I've had an email discussion with Sekonic as my Sekonic meters (758's) don't act linearly with multiple Priolite heads! It seems that Sekonic reads the output for 1/1000th second (slow enough to cover the pulse duration of most heads) and this means that they conclude the measurement whilst the flash tubes are still emitting light.available for the exposure. Sekonic have previously avoided trying to measure HSS pulsed output but are developing a new breed of meter to cater for the longer duration pulses utilised by the likes of Priolite.
Click to expand...

Interesting point re Sekonic Bob. They must have a cut-off time to distinguish between flash and ambient light, but 1/1000sec at t.5, if taken literally, would throw up errors with the majority of flash units.

You cannot meter either HSS or tail-hypersync as most of the light is wasted and effective exposure varies by the shape of the flash output curve, the sync timing off-set and camera model. You have a to take a photo. A completely new kind of meter would need to mimic that.

mike weeks said:
And most modern Nikon cameras

Mike
Click to expand...

Nikon UK currently lists 14 DSLRs, but only four have 1/250sec x-sync (D5, D810/A, D7200). Canon is similar.

Correction:
From the above: "You cannot meter either HSS or tail-hypersync as most of the light is wasted and effective exposure varies by the shape of the flash output curve, the sync timing off-set and camera model. You have a to take a photo. A completely new kind of meter would need to mimic that."

Brain fade - this is not completely true. It's not possible to measure tail-hypersync exposure with a conventional meter, but you can measure HSS exposure at least in theory. It is after all, just continuous light of constant brightness for the very brief period while the shutter completes its cycle. Apologies.
 
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HoppyUK said:
Nikon UK currently lists 14 DSLRs, but only four have 1/250sec x-sync (D5, D810/A, D7200). Canon is similar.
Click to expand...

My D500 is, my D800 is, my D7000s are as is my D7100, my D700 definitely is, going all the way back to my D300 which was as well, where they seem to have dropped is on the D600/610/750

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
My D500 is, my D800 is, my D7000s are as is my D7100, my D700 definitely is, going all the way back to my D300 which was as well, where they seem to have dropped is on the D600/610/750

Mike
Click to expand...

Oops! Missed the D500, but the fact remains that the majority of current Nikon DSLRs don't have 1/250sec x-sync, nor Canon. It's always been like that, with only the high-end and pro-spec models going to 1/250sec and they also represent a much smaller number of total volume sales. It's a shame, as in the context of outdoor flash it translates directly to an effective third-stop of extra brightness.
 
HoppyUK said:
Oops! Missed the D500, but the fact remains that the majority of current Nikon DSLRs don't have 1/250sec x-sync, nor Canon. It's always been like that, with only the high-end and pro-spec models going to 1/250sec and they also represent a much smaller number of total volume sales. It's a shame, as in the context of outdoor flash it translates directly to an effective third-stop of extra brightness.
Click to expand...

Df as well :)

Mike
 
Garry Edwards said:
Personally, I can't see that happening in the forseeable future.
For this to happen, Godox will need to set up an authorised dealer network (on per country or perhaps one per continent initially) which they have been talking about for a long time, but which still hasn't happened, and for those dealers to be supplied with
1. Parts
2. Training
3. Technical drawings.
Parts are easy enough, training won't be cheap but is do-able, but unless and until
(a) Godox trusts third party Companies with their technical drawings and (b) third party Companies trust Godox to honour agreements made with them, it's a non-starter.

I happen to know of one British Company that has the full technical ability to carry out repairs, but they are limited to repairing products made for them to their own spec, i.e. they can't repair any other products of that make. Because of this, other Companies that sell their products are unable to repair them, and as a result of this are unable to offer a warranty that offers a real safeguard to their customers, i.e. they can only offer the very limited warranty that Godox itself provides. Fortunately for these Companies, the vast majority of their customers don't read the small print....

Let's be clear about this, Godox products are not cheap, they are just sold cheaply by internet retailers because they sell to everyone, so an unknown number of sellers are competing with each other for pennies, and most of those sellers evade duties and VAT. So, even if a repair service ever became available, it might not go down well with internet buyers who have bought cheaply
Click to expand...

So effectively these are the same as buying grey imports, or at least in some cases? (I haven't researched to find out if most sellers are UK based or overseas.)
 
HoppyUK said:
Oops! Missed the D500, but the fact remains that the majority of current Nikon DSLRs don't have 1/250sec x-sync, nor Canon. It's always been like that, with only the high-end and pro-spec models going to 1/250sec and they also represent a much smaller number of total volume sales. It's a shame, as in the context of outdoor flash it translates directly to an effective third-stop of extra brightness.
Click to expand...
1/3 of a stop?

I've got a 6d with the slowest sync speed I've experienced for years. :(
 
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