Beginner Help with settings.

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Ginger
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Hi,I recently purchased a canon 600d. I'm trying not to use auto setting. I'm trying to use my camera to photo fish I'm holding at close range. Approx 1mtr from lens. I'm still working on aperture settings. Etc. would any body know which settings to use as a starting point. On say a low light cloudy day. Shutter speed etc. one I have a start point I think I will be able to work it from there. Hope this makes sense.lens is starter kit 18/55
 
Use the in camera light meter as a guide - it will save a lot of grief..
Used properly you shouldn't have any problems in getting the correct exposure in a lot of situations.

#1 Shutter speed should be fast enough to prevent any unwanted subject or camera motion being recorded.
When hand holding and shooting static subjects try shooting at 1/focal length as a guide. You may want to factor in your camers crop factor as well.
So at 18mm that would be abut 1/30 second and at 55mm that would be 1/75 .second.
For moving subjects these speeds will need to be much faster.

#2 Aperture to give you the depth of field (DOF) or zone of sharpness you want - say f8 as a 'general purpose" aperture

#3 ISO to give you the shutter speed and aperture you want. In low ligt it will be fairly high (400+)


It is a balancing act.- depending on how much light you have, and that is a major variable. .

For a thread by Richard Taylor, on Flickr
 
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Thanks for advice Richard. Camera will be tripod mounted and set on self timer on AV setting.
 
A tripod give you a lot more options.
Even on a tripod unwanted subject motion may still may be a problem - like trees/grass blowing in the wind.
It all depends on what you want to show.

#2 Here I wanted to show the movement of the water so the exposure was 0.4 seconds - I was using a tripod with a remote release.
Flow by Richard Taylor, on Flickr
 
Useful to know that you're holding just the fish & not the camera too. It is relevant!

Basic exposure triangle stuff, really. Quantity of light - shutter speed to avoid blur, aperture to assure focus - then iso to suit - bang.

The rest is about the whole tonal range within the photograph, from blacks to whites - if you can moderate those it can be helpful (avoid extremes maybe by how you point the camera relative to available light & background).

My advice is generalised in that I don't know about fish photography especially, but I'd be wary of reflection of sky from wet scales blowing the highlights ... & avoid flash.
 
Why do you want to get away from 'auto'?
On auto, the Camera makes 'settings' based on a light meter reading, in order to get a 'normal' brightness based on the assumption that most scenes are about 18% 'grey' on average.
Aperture or F-Number controls Depth of focus; shutter-speed, motion blur, and ISO 'sensitivity' not a lot.. 'noise' mainly, but sets the broad 'range' to match your 'exposure' before making shutter and aperture settings to control blurr or depth of focus.....
Question you have asked "What sort of settings should I use?" was asked by the bloke who programmed the camera... and they have already answered that.. it's the 'settings' that auto will suggest for you!
Use the display! Have a look see what they are... its as easy as that!
Hence my question.. WHY do you want to use anything 'different' to what the camera's auto-program suggests?
Little point, buying an expensive fully automatic camera, to ignore all that 'easement' and manually make the exact same settings it would!
Only reason to go manual is if you know better than the cameras programmer what you want to get, and how to get it...
So what's the camera not doing for you?
Do you want more or less depth of focus?
Are you getting too much motion blur, or do you want to create some?
Are your pictures too light or too dark? - IS the camera being 'fooled' by anything lots of bright 'highlights' reflecting of a lake in the back-ground, or a lot of bright sky, or a dark shadowed woods or anything?
But... "If it ent broke - don't fix it!" Stay on auto! Get your money's worth from the 'expert programming' you have paid for!
 
Why do you want to get away from 'auto'?
On auto, the Camera makes 'settings' based on a light meter reading, in order to get a 'normal' brightness based on the assumption that most scenes are about 18% 'grey' on average.
Aperture or F-Number controls Depth of focus; shutter-speed, motion blur, and ISO 'sensitivity' not a lot.. 'noise' mainly, but sets the broad 'range' to match your 'exposure' before making shutter and aperture settings to control blurr or depth of focus.....
Question you have asked "What sort of settings should I use?" was asked by the bloke who programmed the camera... and they have already answered that.. it's the 'settings' that auto will suggest for you!
Use the display! Have a look see what they are... its as easy as that!
Hence my question.. WHY do you want to use anything 'different' to what the camera's auto-program suggests?
Little point, buying an expensive fully automatic camera, to ignore all that 'easement' and manually make the exact same settings it would!
Only reason to go manual is if you know better than the cameras programmer what you want to get, and how to get it...
So what's the camera not doing for you?
Do you want more or less depth of focus?
Are you getting too much motion blur, or do you want to create some?
Are your pictures too light or too dark? - IS the camera being 'fooled' by anything lots of bright 'highlights' reflecting of a lake in the back-ground, or a lot of bright sky, or a dark shadowed woods or anything?
But... "If it ent broke - don't fix it!" Stay on auto! Get your money's worth from the 'expert programming' you have paid for!
This^
The 2 questions guaranteed to irk most experienced photographers are:

What settings (impossible to predict)
How can I get off the auto mode (with no reason why - other than believing it's the right thing to do)

90% of my photos are shot in AV, but I'm in control, and know when to override the chosen auto settings. The other 10% would be generally when I'm using flash as my primary light source, so there's complex juggling going on.

In the tutorials section there's some great learning material that'll help you understand how exposure works, and it'll help you understand why M or AV isn't the important issue you think it is.
 
My advice,FWIW, whilst your sat waiting for your next run ;), take photos and learn from them.

Read about shutter speed, fast/slow = less/more light, freeze motion/create motion blur,

Aperture, smaller number = more light/shallower (less) depth of field, lager the number = less light, greater (more) depth of field

ISO, higher the number = more light, the down side being, higher the number also equals more noise.

When you've learnt a bit about the 3 things above ( the exposure triangle), you'll start to realise when the light is fooling the cameras light meter and you'll be able to start compensating for the exposure.

It took me a while before the penny dropped, but digital is free, it doesn't matter how many times you get it wrong when practising, stick it on manual and just enjoy learning.

I found it filled many hours whilst I was sat waiting for mi 'next run' ;) :)
 
How can I get off the auto mode (with no reason why - other than believing it's the right thing to do)

What's wrong with getting off auto 'just because you want to' ?
 
i decided to get a separate light meter to give an accurate reading. the difference as I understand it is a camera picks out different colours in the shot, converts them to an average grey scale and get the photo. A light meter only read the actual light so is more accurate. So I have just , after a lot of watching tuts on youtube, decided and just got one of these for just over £100. Not the mouse used as a size comparison.



Found it easy to use and does make it easier to get correct settings. look for this guy on you tube for other tuts
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU-BPEVbg_s
 
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So what's the point?

Well firstly the op said this below........... and why shouldn't he? ........I'd say good on him!

I'm trying not to use auto setting.

And secondly, the enjoyment of learning something new?

Does it matter how we get there as long as we enjoy doing it? shooting in shutter or aperture priority, all the camera does is chase the light meter then we compensate +/- if we think the meters being fooled, that's absolutely no difference to manual is it?

Again, I'm starting to think I'm missing something Phil but I'm on a journey to learn..........and always willing to listen if I am :)
 
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So what's the point?

Suppose he catches a fish that's still moving, or really windy and the camera auto chose a slow shutter speed.? Or it's a grey day and the camera chose iso 16000?
Or there is something not so pretty in the background and the camera chose f22
There's a million reasons not to choose shooting auto, the main one being you get to control crucial elements of the shot. Not sure why anyone would encourage someone not to get off auto and learn more about their camera and as its been said, it's fun learning these things
 
Suppose he catches a fish that's still moving, or really windy and the camera auto chose a slow shutter speed.? Or it's a grey day and the camera chose iso 16000?
Or there is something not so pretty in the background and the camera chose f22
There's a million reasons not to choose shooting auto, the main one being you get to control crucial elements of the shot. Not sure why anyone would encourage someone not to get off auto and learn more about their camera and as its been said, it's fun learning these things
Where did I suggest he shouldn't learn about photography?

I just said there's no point learning to shoot manual 'because they think it's the right thing to do', particularly when we all know, and the OP has already alluded to what might go wrong.
 
Well firstly the op said this below........... and why shouldn't he? ........I'd say good on him!



And secondly, the enjoyment of learning something new?

Does it matter how we get there as long as we enjoy doing it? shooting in shutter or aperture priority, all the camera does is chase the light meter then we compensate +/- if we think the meters being fooled, that's absolutely no difference to manual is it?

Again, I'm starting to think I'm missing something Phil but I'm on a journey to learn..........and always willing to listen if I am :)
So you agree then, just shooting manual and chasing the meter is the same as shooting AV and chasing the meter.

So the answer lies in understanding the meter, not in the exposure mode ;)
 
I think there are arguments for and against auto. I'm assuming you are taking shots of fish caught while you're out on your own fishing.

Pros - shot can be taken quickly, assuming tripod and camera are set up (on auto) ready to go. The fish spends less time out of the water and no fiddling with settings are required. Adjusting settings whilst juggling a live fish at the same time would be interesting to see (probably put back in keep net between shots?)

Cons - as pointed out by Bruce above.

I'd suggest taking some test shots without the fish while you are waiting for a bite, start with auto and see what that produces. If it's not what you want try semi-auto settings (not enough DOF - reduce the aperture, blurred shot increase the shutter speed, too dark due to higher shutter speed or narrower aperture then increase the ISO). Once set assuming the light doesn't change you'll be ready to take the shot.

Once you understand what these three settings (aperture, shutter speed, ISO) do then you can take control of the settings. Read the manual or a book while you're waiting for the next bite too so you learn what you need to change.

Have fun and if you post a pic up people will be able to help more I'm sure.
 
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So, set your Camera to "P" take your shot and see what settings the Camera decided on, then on "M" use the same setting and see what result you get.

Also check your Local College and see if they are running any Evening Classes, well worth the Time and Money!!
 
So you agree then, just shooting manual and chasing the meter is the same as shooting AV and chasing the meter.

So the answer lies in understanding the meter, not in the exposure mode ;)

Funny how you've said that I agree with you.........not that you agree with me, thanks :LOL::LOL::LOL:

The 2 questions guaranteed to irk most experienced photographers are:

What settings (impossible to predict)
How can I get off the auto mode (with no reason why - other than believing it's the right thing to do)

And I hope I never do become experienced if trying to help folk new to photography annoys me that much Phil :)
 
How does it help?

So what's the point?

Where did I suggest he shouldn't learn about photography?

I just said there's no point learning to shoot manual 'because they think it's the right thing to do', particularly when we all know, and the OP has already alluded to what might go wrong.

I never mentioned shooting manual, I thought the conversation was getting off auto. you appear to be going off on one again so I,ll duck out. To the OP I,d suggest learning the exposure triangle and choose your own path in development, then shoot how you like to get the results you like. You may want to shoot manual if you start using OCF which isn't TTL but shooting auto leaves all the decisions to camera. That isn't always a good thing
 
I never mentioned shooting manual, I thought the conversation was getting off auto. you appear to be going off on one again so I,ll duck out. To the OP I,d suggest learning the exposure triangle and choose your own path in development, then shoot how you like to get the results you like. You may want to shoot manual if you start using OCF which isn't TTL but shooting auto leaves all the decisions to camera. That isn't always a good thing
The OP did though, the Auto he's using is AV.

Begs the question, why would you respond to my answer without checking the question I was answering :thinking:

But clearly it's me that's 'going off on one' rather than you not understanding where I was coming from :D
 
The OP did though, the Auto he's using is AV.

Begs the question, why would you respond to my answer without checking the question I was answering :thinking:

But clearly it's me that's 'going off on one' rather than you not understanding where I was coming from :D

Apologies, I read original and missed post 3
I,ll just shut up and get out the way :LOL:
 
Funny how you've said that I agree with you.........not that you agree with me, thanks :LOL::LOL::LOL:
Because you were the one quoting me 'to disagree' ;)

And I hope I never do become experienced if trying to help folk new to photography annoys me that much Phil :)

And I hope that you'll still be getting involved to help out newbies when you've been at it for 30 years. I'm confident you can find plenty of people I've helped and who are grateful for my blunt and straightforward advice :D
 
Because you were the one quoting me 'to disagree' ;)

If you re-read my post like you've just told Bruce to re-read posts above, I think you'll find that the question marks make what I asked questions, what made you think I was disagreeing? :p

Above I've asked you 5 questions, you haven't answered one of them. I'm in no doubt that you are a very experience, knowledgeable photographer who has a big following on TP. I, like many, have benefited from some of your posts and I'm grateful but it doesn't always make you right ;)

This thread has got side tracked enough, I going to try to stay away :D.....I've got no idea what the op must think, but I hope he's at least learnt something from what's been said :)

Cheers
 
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OP, as you are standing in front of the camera with a fish in your hand(s), consider:

1. Which direction is the light coming from? Try to ensure that the light is coming from behind the camera at say 45 degrees left or right, landing on you and your fish.
2. Try taking a meter reading from the ground where you will be standing. This should give a reasonable approximation of an average subject exposure.
3. Even though the camera is on a tripod, I'd suggest 1/60th or 1/125th as a slower limit for shutter speed. I think I would try Tv mode and set the shutter to 1/125th or 1/250th.
4. Not sure what framing you're going for, but consider what is behind you. You may end up with a telephone pole growing out of your head.
5. When you have it set up, put a cover over the eyepiece on the camera, as light entering the viewfinder may affect the exposure chosen by the camera..

In the end you are the subject and the photographer at the same time...

Tight lines... :)
 
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If you re-read my post like you've just told Bruce to re-read posts above, I think you'll find that the question marks make what I asked questions, what made you think I was disagreeing? :p

Above I've asked you 5 questions, you haven't answered one of them. I'm in no doubt that you are a very experience, knowledgeable photographer who has a big following on TP. I, like many, have benefited from some of your posts and I'm grateful but it doesn't always make you right ;)

This thread has got side tracked enough, I going to try to stay away :D.....I've got no idea what the op must think, but I hope he's at least learnt something from what's been said :)

Cheers
I answered your questions though :thinking:...
So it seems I'm not the one not reading replies ;)
 
5. When you have it set up, put a cover over the eyepiece on the camera, as light entering the viewfinder may affect the exposure chosen by the camera.

I would imagine the OP is going to be using the articulated screen in Liveview to frame the shot from in front, so covering the viewfinder wont be needed for the sort of exposure times he will be using. Only really takes effect for really long exposures when in liveview.
 
Camera will be tripod mounted and set on self timer on AV setting.

A lot of people who have replied to the original post are much more skilled photographers than I am, but I'll wager I've taken more selfies of myself holding fish than they have.

This is how I do it:

Put the camera on a tripod and use a bulb release (or a remote release if you prefer. If you use the timer the camera will focus on whatever is in front of it when you set the timer goiung. Likely you won't be there. That's why a bulb/remote is preferable - the camera will focus on you.

Set the camera to choose the focus point. That will make it focus on whatever is closest to the camera - the fish. Set the zoom in the middle of its range - unless you want that wide angle look which gives you sausage fingers!

You'll need an aperture of 5.6 or smaller and a shutter speed of 1/125th or faster to freeze any motion in case the fish flaps. Let the camera choose the ISO. If it is dull pop the flash up - you can even use it if it's sunny, but that's getting complicated. Use the averaging/matrix metering mode.

Place your unhooking mat in front of the camera and take a test with with you kneeling behind it. A flippy screen makes this dead easy. Adjust lens or mat position until you get the framing you want. Always check the background for distractions.

If the sun is bright make sure it isn't directly behind the camera or light will reflect off the fish straight into the lens and you'll get white highlights. So have the sun to one side of the camera. You can also angle the fish as you hold it so that the flank isn't straight on to the lens to achieve a similar effect.

Those are the basics of that should get you some decent results - even in the dark..

There's more info on my blog - http://blog.lumbland.co.uk/p/fishing-photography.html

DSC_2124.jpg


DSC_0779.jpg
 
......
My advice is generalised in that I don't know about fish photography especially, but I'd be wary of reflection of sky from wet scales blowing the highlights ... & avoid flash.

I would have though that on a dull day a bit of fill flash would make some sense.
 
I answered your questions though :thinking:...
So it seems I'm not the one not reading replies ;)

I take it back Phil, yes, you are always right and I'm missing sumot.........the problem being I've never been good with cryptic replies :)

@Ed Sutton Nice pike Dave (y) did the top one do twenty? Hard to tell in the pictures but the bottom one looks a bit leaner. Had to smile at your 'gill raker rash', I've been there a few times :D

I've stuck your blog in favourite to have a look later :)
 
Good guess Phil-D - 19-07. The other one was 14 or 15. :)
 
i decided to get a separate light meter to give an accurate reading. the difference as I understand it is a camera picks out different colours in the shot, converts them to an average grey scale and get the photo. A light meter only read the actual light so is more accurate.

I have a 1970's, War Era, Russian 'Leningrad' Selenium Cell light meter. Sort of partners my similar era Russian Zenit film camera, that has no in-built 'through the lens', let alone 'coupled', meter. 1930's 'electrical engineering', its a fantastic device, that requires no batteries. It is just as 'accurate' as the sophisticated matrix metering system in my Nikon DSLR, or the wonderful 'multi-mode-meter' in my old Olympus OM4, and calibrates up against any of them, or more modern 'studio' meters to within 1/10th of a stop... But accuracy means little.. I can very accurately measure an 'bad' exposure value...... and just as accurately make 'bad' camera settings based on it!

Between completely under exposed 'black' and utterly blown out 'white', you probably have a range of perhaps twenty 'stops' of different exposure values. Some-where in the middle, you get a photo with a full range of tonal range, but you can shift the mid-point, your 'exposure' settings, perhaps five stops either way, up or down and still get a useful image, while almost ANY exposure settings within one or two stops of that mid-point, can still be 'good', and almost indistinguishable when viewed.

"Accuracy" Doesn't really matter all that much very often... it's like trying to chuck a pea in a bucket.... you have a big 'target' to aim for. It only starts to get more important when you have a high contrast scene, and the 'detail' you want to capture is at either end of the range, with a lot of detail in shadow and a lot of detail in high-lights, and you want to capture it all, but a 'middle' exposure setting makes the shadow detail too dark, and the high-light detail too light... now, instead of chucking a pea at a bucket, you are tossing a foot-ball, that only 'just' fits.... or worse, a beach-ball that doesn't.. in which case you have to decide whether you want to still aim for the mid-point and 'loose' equal amounts of shadow and highlight over hanging the rim of the bucket either side, or whether you want to 'skew' the shot a bit from centre, and get the shadow in and loose the high-light or get the high-light in, and loose the shadow... but STILL how 'accurate' the meter is, is of little importance....its knowing what you are looking at, and what you want to achieve!

THIS!

eye-120803.jpg


Is the most 'accurate' light meter you will ever own! Its learning to understand what it is telling you and translating that t camera settings that's the tricky bit....

A Digital Camera doesn't 'make' a photograph. Its Digital. It 'takes'' millions and millions of actual 'spot- meter' readings.. (it is probably the most sophisticated meter you can get your hands on!) ,it takes three tiny tiny 'spot-meter' readings for every pixel! One for red light, one for green light, one for blue... records them all in a data-file, and then, whatever 'drives' the screen or prints the picture on a bit of paper, you look at that 'photo' on, looks at the millions of meter readings and 'paints by numbers' the picture the camera 'saw'' from those individual meter readings'. A hand-Held light meter? (usually) takes just ONE... meter reading.... that it suggests as 'average' for the whole scene.

Both can 'suggest' a bang on 'accurate' exposure value for the scene you are looking at.. but which one knows the full 'range' of tones and colours within it? Which one MIGHT be able to look at the high-lights and low-lights and 'skew' the suggested settings one way or other, 'presuming' to offer a little 'expert know-how', and favour 'high-lights' over shadow, for example?

But neither a hand held meter or a camera really 'knows' what you are looking at, be it a very bright scene of a white rabbit in a sowie field, or a very dark scene of a black cat in a coal-hole! YOU DO.. use your eye!

Little point accurately measuring ambient light levels, or taking hundreds of spot meter readings to assess contrast range, if you don't know WHY you are doing that, or what to do with all the highly 'accurate' data you collect, to make 'better' camera settings than an 'auto' program would offer!

If you are a slave to the meter, and always do what it tells you to do.. doesn't really matter what kind of meter it is, how 'accurate' it is or how 'sophisticated'; nor does it matter how 'automated' it is or isn't with the camera, and whether the meter sets the ISO, shutter and aperture settings for you 'automatically' or you set them all yourself 'manually'.

You have to know, WHAT settings might make a better photo! You have to know what the ISO, Shutter and Aperture DO to your photo, to know how you might make a better one..only then, does the exposure value start to matter.


f16-Sunny

11227381_995285213829729_3759744872131971362_n.jpg

f16-Sunny 'guide' suggests that on a nice 'sunny' day with clear sky, 'typical' ambient light levels, would beg 'settings' of f16, and a shutter speed of one over the ISO setting. Approx EV6 or EV7, by my meter, or in settings, f16, ISO100, 1/100th, or permutations on that.
And THAT is how I 'metered' very very IN-accurately that photo!
Grand-Daughter had bee brought round and was playing the back garden, and I had an old 'manual' 135mm lens on an adaptor on the DSLR, which meant that the camera wouldn't focus for me, nor make any settings for me, or even offer a meter reading... So I looked at the sky, I looked at the scene I used my EYE! And a little know-how!
I wanted a shallow Depth of focus to throw the clutter the garden out of focus, but I needed a reasonably high shutter speed to avoid blur, from the tight 'framing' (And tendency of six year old to move a bit quick!) Sky was a little cloudy, and it wasn't 'so' sunny, spring time; so I set f16, ISO100, and 1/100th, then opened up the aperture, I think, four stops to f4, and upped the shutter a stop to 1/200th, 'estimating' my ambient light was about 3 stops 'under' f16-Suny... but I had a polariser on, so I twisted that for best effect, dimming the image, so I opened up another stop to f2.8 and dropped the shutter 2/3 stop back to 1/125 to compensate....ALL BY EYE... no meter required. Just a little know how... first bit of know-how being... you don't need to be all that accurate! But you DO have to know what the shutter does, and what the aperture does, and when you know better what you want, than the camera's programmer might have guessed for you!

Of all the things in photography we need to manage... exposure 'accuracy' is probably one of the least 'critical' in my opinion!
 
Thanks for all your comments. Where I'm fishing at the moment I've a high grass bank behind me and big grey sky above it. Now with camera on auto I think I picks the dark grass background and exposes more to lighten the shot. But with the sky above it over exsposes. Which is why I'm trying to learn other settings to use. I will up load a picture and you will see image.jpgAt the time of taking the shot. I noticed it was to bright so I tried to lower the ISO setting. But with a fish on the safty matt I was limited for time. Hence picture. Now how do I practice with no fish for the light to bounce off. Hope this makes sense. I'm in the process of learning at the moment but finding it hard to replicate the conditions which I have at the lake.
 
What's not been asked is why would someone want to be photographed with a fish?

Each to their own...
:D
 
Thanks for all your comments. Where I'm fishing at the moment I've a high grass bank behind me and big grey sky above it. Now with camera on auto I think I picks the dark grass background and exposes more to lighten the shot. But with the sky above it over exsposes. Which is why I'm trying to learn other settings to use. I will up load a picture and you will see View attachment 53650At the time of taking the shot. I noticed it was to bright so I tried to lower the ISO setting. But with a fish on the safty matt I was limited for time. Hence picture. Now how do I practice with no fish for the light to bounce off. Hope this makes sense. I'm in the process of learning at the moment but finding it hard to replicate the conditions which I have at the lake.


You need a fake fish :D
 
The problem appears to be the flash popping up. An I right?
 
No flash popping up. As mr Sutton said normally setting self timer will focus on subject instantly. But I set focus before hand. I use a bank stick in position I would be posing in and focus on that.
 
No flash popping up. As mr Sutton said normally setting self timer will focus on subject instantly. But I set focus before hand. I use a bank stick in position I would be posing in and focus on that.
So why does the fish appear more overexposed than you? The only explanation I can think of would be that the light is closer to the fish (flash)
 
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