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raider2727

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Here we go again in time honoured tradition a post about crop v full frame.

My dilemma is probably a nice one to have but I have to admit it has given me much thought and mind changing.

The question being 5DMKII or 1DMKIII?

Now all you guys are going to say well it depends what you will be using it for and do you need a 1.3 crop or full frame?

This is the rub, I don’t know, I will use it like any other non pro photographer, for taking pictures of landscapes, portraits, wildlife, air shows, trips to the zoo, holidays and any other thing I can point it at.
I really cant say I take fast sport shots but other than that my array of different subjects is vast.

The one thing I do think of is that the 5D will probably hold its price longer because the 1DMKIV is very much knocking the price of the MKIII already.

Any thoughts or are you all in the same boat about choosing cameras when it is time to upgrade
 
If you need a decent focus system for fast moving stuff, buy the 1D, if you want to take photos of not moving things, buy the 5D.

Ignore anything about holding its value, thats a mugs game.

The only other thing to add, is that you probably are more likely to take a non-gripped camera (dropping the grip off perhaps if you use one) out for a walk on holiday than a big bodied pro job.

The 1D is not really for casual "I'll take it out and see what I can find", its a single-minded "lets get some shots" item.

Don't get me wrong, the 1D is a great piece of kit - for a journalist!
 
"I'll take it out and see what I can find"

For me there's only one FF camera that does that yet, the Nikon D700. That camera could directly replace the Nikon 35mm SLR I had years ago. Canon FF cameras don't have a built in flash and therefore need a large cumbersome and attention grabbing speed light. Most annoying. I can't see myself buying a Canon FF until they make one with a flash just like my Nikon SLR and current Canon 20D and eos 30 have.
 
desantnik said:
The only other thing to add, is that you probably are more likely to take a non-gripped camera (dropping the grip off perhaps if you use one) out for a walk on holiday than a big bodied pro job.
Click to expand...

That's a very good point and a reason why I bought a 7D. I now have a 1DIV for when I am being serious (and it will always be hooked up to a big telephoto lens) and a 7D for lighter weight "leisure" stuff.
 
I forgot the 5D MkII doesn't have a pop up flash - Woof Woof makes a good point there. Casual holiday/family snaps are a pain if you need to add a proper flash (which you need to buy, remember and carry!)

Obviously the 1D doesn't have a pop up flash either....

Maybe a D700 is a better bet for you...
 
woof woof said:
"I'll take it out and see what I can find"

For me there's only one FF camera that does that yet, the Nikon D700. That camera could directly replace the Nikon 35mm SLR I had years ago. Canon FF cameras don't have a built in flash and therefore need a large cumbersome and attention grabbing speed light. Most annoying. I can't see myself buying a Canon FF until they make one with a flash just like my Nikon SLR and current Canon 20D and eos 30 have.
Click to expand...

I've had many camera's and i always use a external flash, the built in flash is next to useless.......
 
I find the 7D/5DII combo to be a pretty good way to cover anything I want to shoot, from portraits to sports to landscapes and everything in between! :thumbs:
 
Tony,

I have both cameras. For the types of subject you have listed I think the 5D2 would be the better choice. The 5D2 is smaller, lighter, has a much nicer LCD and AF in Live View, video if you need it, wider wide angles and more reach at the long end. You'll be able to achieve greater subject isolation for your portraits, and much more detail in everything you shoot.

The main reasons to favour the 1D3 are because - you need the build and weatherproofing; you need the superior AF for things that move fast or are difficult to track (motorsports and airshows do not fall into that category) or you must have that faster frame rate for capturing the peak of the action. I am not seeing that need in your listed photographic disciplines, unless you include BIF in with wildlife. There are other benefits, but perhaps a little bit niche, such as dual memory cards for redundancy, 1/300 sync speed, greater customisation of AF and other features, built in grip and portrait controls, 100% viewfinder, +/-3 stop meter, tighter spot meter.

You might also consider the 7D as well. It has (almost) the speed of the 1D3 and AF performance to make the 1D3 nervous, while adding many features missing from both the other cameras. I have a 7D as well. Between the three bodies they all have a place in my lineup.

It's also worth asking what you intend doing with your photos. How large will you print, if at all? Will you want to sell any of them? If the images are strictly for display on a monitor or TV you only need around 2MP max after cropping/downsizing. For many purposes a 50D or 7D will be more than adequate, or even a Rebel. Do you need to shoot at high ISOs - say above 1600? Will you see the difference in the final result if you buy a 5D2 or 1D3, compared to an APS-C body? As lovely as my 1D3 and 5D2 are, I still have shots from my old 30D and 40D that look fabulous when displayed on my 40" 1080p TV, and I've shot weddings and sold pictures taken with those cameras too.

BTW, the price of a new 1D3 is going up....

Canon_EOS_1D_Mark_III_graph.png


p.s. if you want to hang on to the 24-105 then I think the 5D2 makes most sense. It's a bit long on APS-C (38-168mm) or APS-H (31-136mm)for a flexible walkabout lens. On a 5D2, perfect.
 
"...and carry"
and...
"the built in flash is next to useless......."

In some situations portability, discreteness and speed are important and I think that these are areas in which modern DSLR's could be better. For me there could be nothing worse than a large speed light carrying DSLR with a loud shutter.

I'd agree that a speed light gives more opportunities and power but for fill flash and snap shots a built in flash may be perfectly adequate but sadly us Canon users simply do not have the option of a FF camera with one.
 
thank you one and all, Tim your break down and pros and cons is fantastic thank you for taking the time to do that, i wish i could afford 2 good bodies as i would buy a 5DMKII and 7D, alas funds dont stretch that far.

There are 2 7D's for sale on here now which are a good saving on new prices but i fear if i go to a 7D i would see it as a trade off and still lust after the other 2.

Nikon D700 not for me been there done that, metering was awful, lenses to expensive, prefer Canon colours, lenses, i already own a 430 II flash so that is not an issue.
i do live on the Exe Estuary and looking to get some BIF shots with a new lens, D300S Af is brilliant for that but i want Canon.

My head is saying 5DMKII as an all rounder, at the mo
 
Including BIF does throw a spanner in the works. It's not that the 5D2 can't do it, but its AF is not so well cut out for the task. That's where the 1D3 and 7D will really show their true colours. There is not just the AF, or the slow frame rate, but also the lengthy viewfinder blackout time while the mirror saunters up and down. When you are used to shooting with a 1D3 the pedestrian performance of the 5D2 comes as something of a shock. That is no problem when using it for less demanding situations, but is a definite limitation when the action is lively.

For everything else you've mentioned, and if you hang on to that 24-105, the 5D2 does seem like the better choice.

5D2 vs 7D vs 1D3 frame rate compared - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2gK_nDWEl8
 
The 5D2 should handle geese OK as they are pretty large and not too fast or unpredictable in flight. The ability to add expansion/assist points around the centre point should help you out if you have trouble placing a single AF point accurately.

I only have two BIF shots with my 5D2, both of a goose, and neither very good because of my own poor aiming abilities at the time. Light was poor as well and I only have the 100-400 zoom lens, which doesn't help.

Here is the better of the two shots. It was underexposed (my fault, not the camera) and I added 1 stop of exposure in Lightroom. What with the poor light, difficult background, and suspect AF positioning, it's a miracle the camera managed to grab anything. I'm sure superior results could be easily achieved with a bit more effort, but of course, when I go birding the 5D2 is not the camera I take, so I don't have any more examples.

20091030_120517_0189_LR.jpg


50% crop (unsharpened) :
20091030_120517_0189_LR-2.jpg


Here is the AF point placement for this shot (I've brightened the image further in DPP just to make the focus points stand out) :
20100211_124047.JPG
 
Thanks Tim he is a clumsy looking fella, great shot though, i just took the Dog for a walk along the beach and a few Oyster catchers flew right beside me, just typical as i dont have a camera.
I have been reading more and more reviews and think the 5D is going to be the sensible option, however as i am not intending to buy until the 1st of March, so i just might change my mind again, many thanks again for all the help and info it is much appreciated. Tony
 
No problem. Next time I go out birding I will try to remember to take the 5D2 and give it a whirl. It is lovely and sunny today but with a fresh wind and snow on the ground I don't fancy hanging around freezing my nads trying to catch BIF. Maybe if it warms up a little or the wind drops.......
 
I had the 7D for about 3 months before I got the 5DII and I was shocked at how far behind the 5D is in terms of AF. It's not even in the same league. I think 7D beats or equals the 5DII in every area apart from IQ and ISO performance - trouble is those are 2 biggies!

It's a very difficult choice I think. If it wasn't I wouldn't have ended up with both.
 
tdodd said:
No problem. Next time I go out birding I will try to remember to take the 5D2 and give it a whirl. It is lovely and sunny today but with a fresh wind and snow on the ground I don't fancy hanging around freezing my nads trying to catch BIF. Maybe if it warms up a little or the wind drops.......
Click to expand...

No snow here but very cold, save it for a warmer afternoon
 
jontucker said:
I had the 7D for about 3 months before I got the 5DII and I was shocked at how far behind the 5D is in terms of AF. It's not even in the same league. I think 7D beats or equals the 5DII in every area apart from IQ and ISO performance - trouble is those are 2 biggies!

It's a very difficult choice I think. If it wasn't I wouldn't have ended up with both.
Click to expand...

Your a lucky fella Jon, wish i had the funds but lenses need to be brought too, so how far behind is the 7D in IQ terms?
 
The 1DIII will enable you to "get the shot" more often that the 5DII, but what you get on speed, weatherproofing and robustness you lose on video, LCD resolution, sensor resolution and weight.

If you aren't sure what you want, I'd reckon that the 5DII is probably the one for you as I dont think your pattern of usage will "justify" a 1D series. Generally, if you need a 1D series camera, you'll know about it and be unable to sleep unless you get one.

If you are on the fence with the 5DII, I think that's telling you that you dont need the 1D enough.

Of course, having a 1D is very cool :D
 
Tobers said:
Of course, having a 1D is very cool :D
Click to expand...

Oh definitely, however, there are family and other "casual" occasions when having a bloody great big pro body with a huge flash on the top can make you look a bit of a nob or cause a bit too much interest from criminals and/or the law /parents :nono:

I love my huge pile of gear and certainly at times it helps me blend in, but being able to strip down to something less in your face is a good plan sometimes too (ie drop the grip and just use the popup flash)
 
raider2727 said:
Your a lucky fella Jon, wish i had the funds but lenses need to be brought too, so how far behind is the 7D in IQ terms?
Click to expand...

I hear most people saying that it's not that far behind and that it will only matter if you're printing large scale but I think the images the 5D produces have a lustre that you don't get with the 7D no matter what size you make them.

The FF sensor makes much smoother images (if that makes sense!?) and obviously you get different DoF and effective focal lengths which all add to it I think.

I dare say that the low light performance is the biggest thing and it is great on the 5D. I haven't had chance to test them back to back though so I can't really say how much better than the 7D it is.

I am a very lucky boy having both, the new techy bits on the 7D, including the AF system make it a more advanced camera in many respects and I think if BIF is your thing then go for the 7D, it's not lacking so much in the IQ and ISO department that you would be disappointed with it, far from it in fact. You need to seriously way up what you shoot most of I think and if it's mostly indoor/slow(ish) moving/lanscapes then go for the 5D.
 
Tony, I am going to be in Lympstone on Monday, if you want to check them both out I'll chuck em in the car?
 
raider2727 said:
The question being 5DMKII or 1DMKIII?
Click to expand...

Well, going by your history, it doesn't really matter, you'll be back to Nikon again next week anyway :p
 
woof woof said:
"I'll take it out and see what I can find"

For me there's only one FF camera that does that yet, the Nikon D700. That camera could directly replace the Nikon 35mm SLR I had years ago. Canon FF cameras don't have a built in flash and therefore need a large cumbersome and attention grabbing speed light. Most annoying. I can't see myself buying a Canon FF until they make one with a flash just like my Nikon SLR and current Canon 20D and eos 30 have.
Click to expand...

I agree with this - the price they charge and they don't even have a flash? Come on, Canon.
 
tdodd said:
No problem. Next time I go out birding I will try to remember to take the 5D2 and give it a whirl. It is lovely and sunny today but with a fresh wind and snow on the ground I don't fancy hanging around freezing my nads trying to catch BIF. Maybe if it warms up a little or the wind drops.......
Click to expand...

The weather cheered up a little today so I popped out with the 5D2, 7D and 1D3 to try some BIF. Unfortunately, by the time I got to the 1D3 the light was getting worse, and it hadn't been brilliant to begin with.

I've uploaded a few samples to an online album. Everything was shot hand held with my 100-400 lens at 400mm and 1/800. Of 62 photos in the album, all but two were wide open at f/5.6. One photo was at 200 ISO, 34 at 400 and 27 at 800. Eleven were shot with the 5D2, 46 with the 7D and only 5 with the 1D3. Some have had tweaks to WB, levels and some cropping. None have had any adjustments to sharpening or NR. Here is the album....

EDIT : I've updated the album with larger sized files, and for each photo there is now an unedited version processed in DPP followed by a version that has been edited in Lightroom.

http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTig...CMjfjL6chK3IzQE#slideshow/5438576777676594178
 
Why is everyone so fussed about a pop up flash, surely if you're spending over £1000 on camera gear you should have learnt that pop up flash is crap
 
davidbridges said:
Why is everyone so fussed about a pop up flash, surely if you're spending over £1000 on camera gear you should have learnt that pop up flash is crap
Click to expand...
Well since the popup can act as a focus assist lamp, and also a wireless ETTL flash trigger, and, at a push, provide some daytime fill, I wouldn't call it "crap". I'd call it quite handy. It's a good bit better than the 580EX you left at home, when suddenly you realise you need flash and didn't bring it.
 
tdodd said:
The weather cheered up a little today so I popped out with the 5D2, 7D and 1D3 to try some BIF. Unfortunately, by the time I got to the 1D3 the light was getting worse, and it hadn't been brilliant to begin with.

I've uploaded a few samples to an online album. Everything was shot hand held with my 100-400 lens at 400mm and 1/800. Of 62 photos in the album, all but two were wide open at f/5.6. One photo was at 200 ISO, 34 at 400 and 27 at 800. Eleven were shot with the 5D2, 46 with the 7D and only 5 with the 1D3. Some have had tweaks to WB, levels and some cropping. None have had any adjustments to sharpening or NR. Here is the album....

http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTig...CMjfjL6chK3IzQE#slideshow/5438539048868215458
Click to expand...

TBH I couldn't tell them apart (at that size any rate). I suppose the question is how many did you bin with each camera?
 
jontucker said:
TBH I couldn't tell them apart (at that size any rate). I suppose the question is how many did you bin with each camera?
Click to expand...

The album has approx 10% of the shots I took with the 5D2, 20% of those with the 7D and 10% of those with the 1D3.

Reasons for the high reject rate are numerous......

- I'm not a terribly skilled BIF photographer and don't have the highest success rate in keeping the AF point on the bird;
- 1/800 is not my idea of an ideal shutter speed for BIF at 400mm and then cropped, so some were dismissed for excessive shake/blur;
- Since I was intending to compare AF tracking performance between the cameras I often started tracking early, with the birds too small in the frame to make worthwhile images, so several got dumped for that reason;
- Some were static shots and too similar to be worth keeping;
- The DOF was shallow enough for some shots that I might have had the body in focus but not the head/eyes/bill.
- Sometimes I tracked the bird through overhanging branches. The cameras all did well at not refocusing, but the resulting images were not worth keeping;
- Sometimes the composition was too poor, chopping off wings or feet beyond salvation;
- Sometimes the light just didn't work and the bird was poorly lit. A lot of the time I had a sunlit background, but as the birds got closer to me they ended up in the semi-shadow of the leafless treeline;
- I had messed around with AF customisation on the 7D and 1D3 and was having trouble retaining focus until I reset things back to my old settings;
- Sometimes, for no reason I can fathom (so far), the camera failed to focus perfectly, even though I thought I'd done my job well enough. I will have to look at focus point positioning in DPP to see whether I really was to blame. Usually it turns out that I am the culprit.

So, the vast majority of rejection was down to my limited skills and my choices, not the equipment.

I've updated the album with larger versions and have now included "before" and "after" copies of each file, so you can see the true horror. The "before" versions were processed in DPP with Standard picture style and sharpening = 3, approximately representing the SOOC results. Thus you can see how far off my exposures and framing were, and what challenges the AF faced with my dubious tracking skills.

http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTig...CMjfjL6chK3IzQE#slideshow/5438576777676594178
 
tdodd said:
Well since the popup can act as a focus assist lamp, and also a wireless ETTL flash trigger, and, at a push, provide some daytime fill, I wouldn't call it "crap". I'd call it quite handy. It's a good bit better than the 580EX you left at home, when suddenly you realise you need flash and didn't bring it.
Click to expand...

Indeed and there are times when you want a camera for something other than a nice bit of quality photography - which is what the OP was talking about.

Not every time you click the button is about a TP post....
 
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