how can you tell if a used lens is Eu/uk or an import?

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mikeyb

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Hi,

I have been offered a price for my used Canon 400mm F5.6L lens from a week known dealer, however they won't take it unless I can prove the vat was paid on it when new. I am at least the third owner of the lens as I bought it second hand about 3 years ago. The lens is 1996 date code and as I explained I think they are fortunate I can give them the box, the leather case and the serial card with it.

However as they say that are vat registered they won't take it without proof of vat payment :-(

I was going to try Canon themselves on Monday and see if the serial number would prove anything.

Any other ideas, the box doesn't even have a bar code, probably because they didn't have such a thing 17 year ago, and I suspect the EU/UK probably wasn't included then either.

Thanks,

Mike.
 
I honestly don't think it would be necessary for a second hand lens to have proof of VAT payment. I've recently asked L.C.E. in Lincoln for a trade in price on a couple of bodies for a 70D and they never mentioned anything about VAT on second user items.
 
modchild said:
I honestly don't think it would be necessary for a second hand lens to have proof of VAT payment. I've recently asked L.C.E. in Lincoln for a trade in price on a couple of bodies for a 70D and they never mentioned anything about VAT on second user items.
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Hi,

that's what I thought too.

Still, it's what they are asking for :(

Mike.
 
You might find you'd get a similar or better price by listing it in the classifieds here rather than a second hand price from a shop as they're regularly advertised on here from around £750 or so on here.
 
modchild said:
You might find you'd get a similar or better price by listing it in the classifieds here rather than a second hand price from a shop as they're regularly advertised on here from around £750 or so on here.
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Hi,

Last two have sold at £600 and £650 which isn't much more than I've been offered by the dealer. Just thought less hassle selling it to them as they courier collect.

Will see what Canon say on Monday.

Mike.
 
I take it this is MPBPhotographic? I had a similar experience trying to trade a Canon 85mm 1.8 that was purchased from Kerso (so an import) and they said the same about needing proof of VAT payment originally (to reclaim it), and in my case a non-import.

Cheers
Steve
 
To my knowledge a company that you are selling to can't legitimately claim VAT that was paid on an earlier sale to you.
They should only be able to claim the VAT that you might charge to them - which unless you are a company and VAT registered would be nil.
 
ecoleman said:
What ones them being VAT registered have to do with it. It's a second hand lens and therefore no VAT.
Tell them to forget it and find another buyer.
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Not true at all. VAT must be paid on any item sold by a VAT registered person or company, no matter how old it is.
This applies to all UK transactions that have no special dispensations, buy from Germany for instance, and there is no VAT, but sell what you buy from Germany, then you have to pay 20% of the total to HMRC.

The vat cannot be reclaimed by the shop buying the lens, unless as stated, YOU, the seller, are UK VAT registered, as you will not be charging VAT.

Bring second hand goods in from the States, you pay VAT on import...How else do you think the government get their money from businesses.

Everyone should try to run a business for a while, to see what's involved, and realise that there isn't a bucket load of profit in retail, PC World work on a margin of around 3-4% on computers...........
 
There's a lot of confusion here but I think we can cut through it quite simply. Note that the retailer is reported as saying that they won't take the lens without proof that VAT was paid in it. Not that they can't - but that they won't.

I don't think it's really about the VAT at all. I'd be willing to bet they would happily take it if you could provide evidence that it was purchased in circumstances where no VAT is legally due. (For example, if you bought it yourself whilst travelling outside the EU and the total value of your purchases on the trip was £390 or less, no import duty or VAT is payable.)

Instead, I think it's about the fact that so much stuff is bought illegally these days on the "grey" (i.e. black) market via tax evasion. Illegal retailers make life hard for legal businesses and this looks to me like the retailer is making a principled stand on the issue. And in addition, by buying equipment which has entered the UK/EU illegally and selling it on legally with VAT paid, they would be engaging in something not entirely unlike money laundering. I can easily understand them not wanting to do that.

If more second-hand dealers wised up to the issue, and it became generally known that one would have difficulty selling stuff which one had bought illegally, it might put a dent in the volume of black market sales. We can but hope.
 
IMHO this is probably more likely to be about proof of purchase then the VAT-
I think they're asking for a VAT receipt as this is a relatively reliable proof of ownership, and something that I've certainly kept for any really expensive stuff.
 
Hi,

still waiting to see if anyone can answer the question I asked ;)

Thanks,

Mike.
 
mikeyb said:
Hi,

still waiting to see if anyone can answer the question I asked ;)

Thanks,

Mike.
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Firstly phone Canon UK to see if it's one of their's. if so ask them to email you confirmation.

If not trace the original owner.

It's good to see one of the mainstream secondhand suppliers starting to put their foot down! :)
 
pastyman said:
Not true at all. VAT must be paid on any item sold by a VAT registered person or company, no matter how old it is. This applies to all UK transactions that have no special dispensations, buy from Germany for instance, and there is no VAT, but sell what you buy from Germany, then you have to pay 20% of the total to HMRC. The vat cannot be reclaimed by the shop buying the lens, unless as stated, YOU, the seller, are UK VAT registered, as you will not be charging VAT. Bring second hand goods in from the States, you pay VAT on import...How else do you think the government get their money from businesses. Everyone should try to run a business for a while, to see what's involved, and realise that there isn't a bucket load of profit in retail, PC World work on a margin of around 3-4% on computers...........
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What the hell are you on about. You've pretty much just said exactly what I said, so what's not true.

Some chap wants to sell his lens to a company that deals in second hand lenses. The seller is not VAT registered and therefore is not charging the company VAT. As the company is not paying VAT, they can not claim any VAT so why should they need a VAT invoice that was issued in 1996.

PS, I run my own business so know what's involved. I was also in management at PC world so know what their profit margins are. Their average GP is around 18%, but this really has nothing to do with what's being discussed. VAT has no bearing on profit as margins are calculated exclusive of VAT.
 
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Hi,

can we get back on topic please, all I want to know is how to prove the lens is UK or EU !!

If I'd known it would have started YET another debate on grey imports I wouldn't have bothered asking the question :(

Mike.
 
mikeyb said:
Hi,

can we get back on topic please, all I want to know is how to prove the lens is UK or EU !!

If I'd known it would have started YET another debate on grey imports I wouldn't have bothered asking the question :(

Mike.
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I don't think that anyone is debating the merits of grey imports. They're simply debating the relevance of VAT to used goods, which is actually quite a complex subject.

As for the solution to you'd problem - look back two three posts! :)
 
ecoleman said:
Sorry, I guess only canon will be able to tell you that, but that's not going to give you proof of VAT payment which the buyer wants.
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If it was bought from a UK source, they'll accept that as proof.
 
pastyman said:
Not true at all. VAT must be paid on any item sold by a VAT registered person or company, no matter how old it is.
This applies to all UK transactions that have no special dispensations, buy from Germany for instance, and there is no VAT, but sell what you buy from Germany, then you have to pay 20% of the total to HMRC.

The vat cannot be reclaimed by the shop buying the lens, unless as stated, YOU, the seller, are UK VAT registered, as you will not be charging VAT.

Bring second hand goods in from the States, you pay VAT on import...How else do you think the government get their money from businesses.

Everyone should try to run a business for a while, to see what's involved, and realise that there isn't a bucket load of profit in retail, PC World work on a margin of around 3-4% on computers...........
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There's an awful lot wrong with that post.

Firstly, no VAT in Germany? Where did you get that from? If goods are bought from within the EU then no further VAT is payable as part of the harmonised zone.

Secondly, VAT registered firms DO NOT charge VAT on second hand goods, unless:

a) the item was bought by a VAT registered firm or individual and was therefore claimed back from the exchequer

or

b) No VAT was legally paid on the goods in the first place.

There are, as I hinted at, legal exemptions from paying VAT; such as being a member of HM Forces in BFG where goods can be purchased VAT-free. But even then, conditions are placed on resale.

Where a registered VAT company may pay tax on the resale of purchased used goods is on the percentage of their iplift- but even this isn't always the case.

VAT on goods is meant to be a one-time tax and if you consider the above with that in mind, it makes sense.
 
Second-hand dealers are usually on the margin scheme. They account for VAT on their profit.
 
Hi,

too late to get this sold now anyway, away on holiday for three weeks on Sunday. Just a pain with the dealer chasing me for weeks with this lens then just as they are about to book the courier collection the UK question reared its ugly head. Could have with the extra spending money ;-)

Annoying in the fact that I bet very few people would still have a receipt for a 17 years old at least third hand item :-(

Mike.
 
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The thing is Mike, without getting into the morals of grey imports as you requested, it looks as though HMRC are starting to take a tougher line on exactly that.

They've basically got to ways of attacking the grey market,

Firstly at the import stage by impounding goods whilst their details are checked

and

Secondly requiring all VAT registered second hand traders to prove that VAT has already been paid on the goods that they're selling.

The latter might well be recent news and you might have been accidentally squeezed in a crack down! :)
 
Just an add on...



If the latter bit is correct, and bear in mind it's only supposition on my part, then there's absolutely no reason that people won't be able to sell their grey imports via a trader. They'll just be valued at 20% less than UK sourced/VAT paid items, as they should be anyway.
 
mikey i would just fire it on here or ebay save you all the agro could they not have said they wanted proof from the start
 
mikeyb said:
Hi,

Last two have sold at £600 and £650 which isn't much more than I've been offered by the dealer. Just thought less hassle selling it to them as they courier collect.

Will see what Canon say on Monday.

Mike.
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Probably one of the ones I bought, snapped it up in a flash as I expected to pay much closer to £700 - £750 that they go for on E-bay.

Matt
 
VAT on secondhand goods is not quiet the same as VAT on new goods, This was great fun when I used to run a Games store as you have to record New and Used sales and purchases independently. (thankfully the epos system was custom designed to do this)
 
StewartR said:
Instead, I think it's about the fact that so much stuff is bought illegally these days on the "grey" (i.e. black) market via tax evasion. Illegal retailers make life hard for legal businesses and this looks to me like the retailer is making a principled stand on the issue. And in addition, by buying equipment which has entered the UK/EU illegally and selling it on legally with VAT paid, they would be engaging in something not entirely unlike money laundering. I can easily understand them not wanting to do that.

If more second-hand dealers wised up to the issue, and it became generally known that one would have difficulty selling stuff which one had bought illegally, it might put a dent in the volume of black market sales. We can but hope.
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I really hope you're right on this. And, from my dealings with MPB, I would not be at all surprised if you were.

Dealing in second-hand goods presents, I would imagine, legal and moral problems. For a start, how do you ensure that the goods you're purchasing from a user aren't stolen? I belive that dealing in stolen goods is illegal. I'm not so sure about the legality of dealing in smuggled goods, but morally I can see little difference between the two.
 
Asking for an invoice can presumably reduce their risk, but not entirely. Selling on goods that you know are stolen is illegal, selling on goods that you are not aware to be stolen is not. If the goods were though and they were caught with the goods they would loose the goods and the vaue paid for them - never mind the harm to their reputation.

You don't have to be issued a VAT receipt from retailers unless you request it, and of course just because you may have a receipt doesn't mean it wasn't perhaps stolen with the goods or forged. It is however about the only thing they can do as a check.

I doubt anyone will ever stop the grey imports and the only way to stem the ever increasing flow is to clamp down properly on imported goods in customs as well as have a serial number database showing who the items were sold to originally. Whilst the goods sail through customs there will always be issues.
 
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