How to Improve this shot ? Equipment / Settings or Processing.

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Phil
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#41
Would that be reputation with the paying client or all stakeholders? If pushing the boundaries of what's permissible from event organisers ends up with a barring from the event in future, is that worth the risk to get the output in the here and now? A difficult tightrope.

I recall a "professional" who, to get the shot wandered onto a pitch to get the desired angle. Ended up being called up to the sport governing body and barred from a number of local pitches and all events organised by the National body. Tried to appeal legally that they were stifling his business by barring him. Suffice to say it didn't get upheld in his favour!
A bit of an overreaction James?
No one is talking about breaking any rules, we’re talking about working with the rules and the organisers to be able to deliver professional photo’s .

You’ll find that other photographers are managing to do so ;)
 
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#42
A bit of an overreaction James?
No one is talking about breaking any rules, we’re talking about working with the rules and the organisers to be able to deliver professional photo’s .

You’ll find that other photographers are managing to do so ;)
My comment was based on the "OP stated in her first post that flash is banned" comment, without the assumption that rule applied only to within ring.

I was going to suggest a LED light panel which technically isn't flash ergo would be allowed. But its all moot if the flash thing is allowed outside ring confines...
 
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#43
My comment was based on the "OP stated in her first post that flash is banned" comment, without the assumption that rule applied only to within ring.

I was going to suggest a LED light panel which technically isn't flash ergo would be allowed. But its all moot if the flash thing is allowed outside ring confines...
Which was clarified in the post I quoted from Mark, that flash is only banned ‘in the ring’.
 
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#44
Which was clarified in the post I quoted from Mark, that flash is only banned ‘in the ring’.
I assumed this was an assumption made on Marks part due to the OP saying that its against KC rules. I couldn't see anywhere where it was mentioned that this was a location with ring and outside ring sections. If this was KC @ Stoneleigh then Flash is indeed not allowed in any of their indoor locations.
 
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#45
Flash is allowed outside the display ring. Ergo, directing staff answer: set up a photobooth at the entrance and shoot it there.
Not quite sure how setting up a booth using flash answers the specific question posed by the OP?
Think I will see your ergo and raise you an Argo
 
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#46
Not quite sure how setting up a booth using flash answers the specific question posed by the OP?
Think I will see your ergo and raise you an Argo
I think the advice on controlling the light was made on the basis of what should have been done when taking the original image rather than what could be done to improve the current one.

Lots of assumptions being made all round.
 
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#47
I think the advice on controlling the light was made on the basis of what should have been done when taking the original image rather than what could be done to improve the current one.

Lots of assumptions being made all round.
Indeed, just feels like a relatively simple question regarding settings and technique has been turned into a we know best thread
Lots of well intentioned advice has now been usurped by solutions that are probably not feasible options for the OP
 
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#48
Indeed, just feels like a relatively simple question regarding settings and technique has been turned into a we know best thread
Or indeed a ‘this is the technique I’d use if I wanted to satisfy customers’ answers.
The OP asked what technique would improve the situation. IMHO adding flash is a better answer than polishing a turd (which most of the other answers amount to).
 
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#49
Or indeed a ‘this is the technique I’d use if I wanted to satisfy customers’ answers.
The OP asked what technique would improve the situation. IMHO adding flash is a better answer than polishing a turd (which most of the other answers amount to).
The original post stated that flash isn't allowed. Everyone else took that at face value and tried to answer the question asked on that basis.

Unless it's known for certain that flash is allowed in another area of the venue it's pointless suggesting it. We also don't know if there are already other photographers using flash elsewhere on a commercial basis who don't want someone else muscling in with a set of lights and a backdrop.

If those restrictions don't apply, then sure, get a clean backdrop and provide the lighting. If they do apply then it's back to square one.
 
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#50
Or indeed a ‘this is the technique I’d use if I wanted to satisfy customers’ answers.
The OP asked what technique would improve the situation. IMHO adding flash is a better answer than polishing a turd (which most of the other answers amount to).
Flash cannot improve that specific photo because it ain't allowed.
Yes it may be outside the ring or whatever dog fanciers call them, but not where the OP is taking her photos.
We might be polishing the turd, but you have picked it up and moved it elsewhere
 
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Kell
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#53
There's lots of good advice here, but it's based on a lot of assumptions - including that this is someone on a paying job asking this. I'd *assumed* the opposite.

If you can't move your location, and you can't use flash in the current location, are you able to use a tripod? Are you able to use a reflector of some sort to add/concentrate light to the area? Are you able to use some sort of video light so it's constant and not a 'flash'?
 
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Paul
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#54
Realistically the first thing I would do is go for flash. This would enable you to narrow the aperture, raise the shutter speed and lower the ISO. All of which would help. But you are not allowed to do that, So scratch that.

Settings wise you are already on a horrible set of settings, ISO too high, shutter speed on the edge, and the aperture too open. It doesn't seem like you have the light to play with any of those much.

Then looking at the negatives, you have a basic camera and a low end lens, and you compounding things by cropping the image.

So if was me -

#1 use a different lens that doesn't require any cropping.
#2 use a quality lens that is sharper and works better in low light.
#3 Change the body for something better that works better in low light.

With a quality body / lens combo you can then afford to raise the ISO to shoot at a more sensible aperture such as f5.6 and with a quality body / lens combo its generally all going to work better with lower light anyway.

Using a nice long lens means you don't have to crop as well. Asides from the money you'd need to spend its a win win all round.
 
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gothgirl
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#55
I appreciate a backdrop and lights is going to produce a better quality image , however as stated above I am not just standing shots like this one, I also shoot moving subjects and you can’t capture a dog (or horse) moving around in the ring , with a backdrop and lights. And flash photography is not allowed ringside, full stop.
 
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#57
however as stated above I am not just standing shots like this one, I also shoot moving subjects and you can’t capture a dog (or horse) moving around in the ring , with a backdrop and lights.
But this isn’t a shot of a dog moving in a ring, obviously if it was, no one would have suggested a backdrop,
The question was ‘how to improve this shot’ the answer to which is a better backdrop and lighting.

It’s more than ‘possible’ to shoot the dogs moving in the ring one minute and then posed and lit the next.

Back to your focussing issue though - I’m assuming that your lens isn’t constantly back-focussing, otherwise you’d have already tested and had it fixed, so as per my earlier post, your misfocus here is due to the thing you’re tryin to focus on being low contrast but close to something high contrast. As I said; your focus point is a lot bigger than it appears in the viewfinder, so you need to either:
Find a focus target at the correct focus distance
Create a focus target on the eye (using a flash transmitter which emits a focus pattern)
 
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#58
but it's based on a lot of assumptions - including that this is someone on a paying job asking this. I'd *assumed* the opposite.
Because no one’s taking set up shots like in the OP then complaining they’re not good enough... for ‘fun’
 
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#59
This is a clear case of the different mindset of the amateur and professional (not a judgement btw);

An amateur will try desperately to work with whatever limitations are chucked at them and when the results aren’t good will look for a way to ‘polish a turd’ or just accept it’s a crap situation.

The professional attitude is ‘what do I need to do to make sure the product is of a high quality and ensures I get paid and my reputation doesn’t suffer?’
The simple fact is we have to control the situation, there should never be questions of whether the gear is suitable or whether we can spend longer fixing something in post than we would have spent shooting it properly.

@gothgirl, there’s nothing wrong with your technique - I too would be using the continuous focus, BBF and centre focus point, but to deliver repeatable clean quality results you simply have to take control, and where there’s not enough light - that means adding more light.
She has already said that flash is NOT allowed and since animals are involved just adding more light would simply get her barred.
 
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#60
Personally I would use centre focussing and focus on the dog's fur since subjectively that is what would be noticed if OOF more than an eye, and it is a larger area so would probably be easier to get focus on that.
 
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#62
Personally I would use centre focussing and focus on the dog's fur since subjectively that is what would be noticed if OOF more than an eye, and it is a larger area so would probably be easier to get focus on that.
Of course there’s no guarantee that a mass of fur would have any contrast at all.
 
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#63
Because no one’s taking set up shots like in the OP then complaining they’re not good enough... for ‘fun’
What a strange thing to say.

Lots of people go to lots of events and take shots for fun. Motor racing, aviation, vegetable shows ... dog shows.

I don’t know the OP, but they’ve made lots of posts, so it’s possible you do. But simply because they’re asking the questions in the first place, I’d hope this isn’t a paid gig.
 
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#64
I didn't assume. I used my initiative and looked up the KC rules applied to photographers at Crufts.
So you assumed this was crufts or that the rules that apply at crufts apply everywhere else for KC. Which is not the case at Stoneleigh.

Thus the
Indeed, just feels like a relatively simple question regarding settings and technique has been turned into a we know best thread
holds true
 
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Rich
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#67
Partly why I OP'd the Toxicity in Photography communities thread, which en point got toxic within the first page, thus validating the hypothesis.
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/toxicity-in-photography-communities.692111/#post-8378029
Personally don't really care that much, just like life, few people you like, some you don't and most just indifferent to.
Suppose the internet is a good thing if its gives the ranters somewhere to vent their spleen.
Saves some poor sod working in a shop or a call centre having to listen to all their old crap.
Used to be the pub until someone had enough and told to them to keep it shut, many have a misshapen hooter
 
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#68
What a strange thing to say.

Lots of people go to lots of events and take shots for fun. Motor racing, aviation, vegetable shows ... dog shows.

I don’t know the OP, but they’ve made lots of posts, so it’s possible you do. But simply because they’re asking the questions in the first place, I’d hope this isn’t a paid gig.
And as someone who’s often an amateur at events and sometimes the pro, I’d like to think I recognise the difference between help on a shot I’d like to take and help on a shot I need to get right.
I could be completely wrong (it’s been known) but this looks like the latter.
Of course the OP could clear that up in an instant.
 
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#69
Partly why I OP'd the Toxicity in Photography communities thread, which en point got toxic within the first page, thus validating the hypothesis.


https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/toxicity-in-photography-communities.692111/#post-8378029
Oddly, I don’t see any ‘toxicity’ in this thread, there’s assumptions from some pro’s that this is a serious gig (must have results) due to the wording of the OP. And some people seem to have decided that’s an incorrect assumption (there’s always a small number of camera owners who like to jump on any pro post).
But I don’t see much of what I’d call ‘toxic’
 
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#70
Oddly, I don’t see any ‘toxicity’ in this thread, there’s assumptions from some pro’s that this is a serious gig (must have results) due to the wording of the OP. And some people seem to have decided that’s an incorrect assumption (there’s always a small number of camera owners who like to jump on any pro post).
But I don’t see much of what I’d call ‘toxic’
What is a pro post and why should there be any differentiation between "pro-posts" and whatever "non-pro-posts" are. Does this not lead to some level of elitism.

Professional simply implies that ones main income stream is from that occupation and not a measure of photographic calibre,
 
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Kell
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#71
And as someone who’s often an amateur at events and sometimes the pro, I’d like to think I recognise the difference between help on a shot I’d like to take and help on a shot I need to get right.
I could be completely wrong (it’s been known) but this looks like the latter.
Of course the OP could clear that up in an instant.
Well it's not often I'm right, but...

I think I'll just leave it there. There is no but.

;-)
 
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#72
What is a pro post and why should there be any differentiation between "pro-posts" and whatever "non-pro-posts" are. Does this not lead to some level of elitism.

Professional simply implies that ones main income stream is from that occupation and not a measure of photographic calibre,
As per my original post (not elitism) it’s anout whether a shot is a ‘nice to have’ or a ‘got to get’.
There’s a load of s*** photos shot by pros and plenty of amazing ones shot by amateurs, but that’s not relevant to the question ‘how would you get this shot?’ Where the answer from a pro who’s done it thousands of times is likely to be more use than an amateur guessing how it might be done.
 
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Brian
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#73
As per my original post (not elitism) it’s anout whether a shot is a ‘nice to have’ or a ‘got to get’.
There’s a load of s*** photos shot by pros and plenty of amazing ones shot by amateurs, but that’s not relevant to the question ‘how would you get this shot?’ Where the answer from a pro who’s done it thousands of times is likely to be more use than an amateur guessing how it might be done.
What about an amateur thats done it thousands of times, whos not guessing?
 
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Jamesev
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#74
As per my original post (not elitism) it’s anout whether a shot is a ‘nice to have’ or a ‘got to get’.
There’s a load of s*** photos shot by pros and plenty of amazing ones shot by amateurs, but that’s not relevant to the question ‘how would you get this shot?’ Where the answer from a pro who’s done it thousands of times is likely to be more use than an amateur guessing how it might be done.
Or simply a photography who has done it thousands of times regardless of pro or am, however I agree that its more likely that a person whose main income stream is from photography will have had more time to have experienced the pitfalls and mastered the light!

What about an amateur thats done it thousands of times, whos not guessing?
There are many out there however it is more likely that more pros will have done it thousands of times rather than Ams, but its not exclusive to pros.
 
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Dave
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#76
As per my original post (not elitism) it’s anout whether a shot is a ‘nice to have’ or a ‘got to get’.
There’s a load of s*** photos shot by pros and plenty of amazing ones shot by amateurs, but that’s not relevant to the question ‘how would you get this shot?’ Where the answer from a pro who’s done it thousands of times is likely to be more use than an amateur guessing how it might be done.
Is there anyone on TP who has photographed thousands of dogs at shows? :D I certainly haven't, but I do photograph at sheep and poultry shows, often with grim lighting and restricted access/viewpoints, and have based my suggestions on that experience. Even though I am an amateur...

The original question was not ,"How would you get this shot?" If it had been the advice about a clean background and managed lighting is correct. Much as I hate using artificial light that's what I do (when press ganged) for chicken portraits. But we still don't know if this is an option for the OP - logistically or financially.

I would like to improve the overall Sharpness/Clarity/Quality of this shot, and others like it, though I'm not 100% certain what is the best way to do so.
...............
Is there anything that I can do to improve these shots, with the equipment that I have?
Some people have tried to answer the original question as posed. Essentially, use a longer lens (or get closer) to avoid cropping, and nail focus. Even moving the subject away from the wall turned out not to be an option when I suggested it.

More info is required regarding intended use of photos and about the organisation of the event(s) are required to judge what the best way to improve the results is.
 
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Mark
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#77
So you assumed this was crufts or that the rules that apply at crufts apply everywhere else for KC. Which is not the case at Stoneleigh.

Nope I didn't assume. I chose a large and obvious event run under KC rules. If the KC rules stated no flash anywhere in the building, then that would hold for Crufts as well.

Hence any rules regarding the use of flash (apart from in the display ring) would be at event rather than national level and therefore open to negotiation.
 
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gothgirl
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#78
Ok, thought i'd best post to clarify, as this thread seems to have gone to hell in a handbasket and lit up my notifications with replies.

Whether it's written down or not, flash is either not allowed or very very frowned upon in or near the ring at both indoor Dog and horse shows, as it's distracting to both animal and owner.

No, I was not on a gig and this specific photo is not needed for a customer, as some have suggested, it was just an example.

The original point of this thread, and what I wanted to know is how I could have done THIS photo better and how I could improve the next time I'm at a similar show... this picture being an animal being shown inside an indoor ring... I don't need to know how to setup up a backdrop and studio lighting to pose said dog, in a different location :rolleyes:

Lights and backdrops are great, but I don't want to take 'staged' photos, I would like to take 'candid' photos in the ring but do it better in the future, ideally by improving my skill and not throwing money at new kit.

There's been some sound advice amongst all the flying handbags, and I've set up Back Button Focus already, so hoping that will help next time.
 
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#79
  • Edited in Lightroom
...
Is there anything that I can do to improve these shots, with the equipment that I have?
Do you have any of the same shots (in similar poor conditions) where you used RAW+Jpeg so we can see if the SOOC Jpegs are nicer than your 'dull' example?
 
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