How to sync up colour between lenses?

[dancook]

Shooting with 2 x Sony A1, with 70-200 II and 24-70 II - although I had this issue back when I had versions I of the lenses.

If I paste the same WB onto the RAW files in LR, the 70-200 is consistently pinker (first) versus the 24-70 which is greener (second)

These two images are using the same pasted WB setting, what's the best way to fix my workflow? As tint is pink/green I've been juggling WB, but this is time consuming.

Is it possible I need to buy a colour checker passport thing and create profiles for all my lenses?

 

[Box Brownie]

None too sure but in the past with challenging lighting (in a tunnel) I used my WhiBal card to set my PP WB.

As for the sort of variation you mention then individual profiling might be required if using the likes of the WhiBal do not solve it

 

[dancook]

I can do a WB match off the wall using the rear wall in both of these image, and they will then look seemingly the same WB but ..

24-70 - gives me 2850 and +11 tint
70-200 - gives me 2750 and + 2 tint

This WB output though isn't what I want, I want to adjust the WB to taste and have them both match - but I'm not starting from the same place I can't just paste them.

 

[juggler]

Shooting with 2 x Sony A1, with 70-200 II and 24-70 II - although I had this issue back when I had versions I of the lenses.

If I paste the same WB onto the RAW files in LR, the 70-200 is consistently pinker (first) versus the 24-70 which is greener (second)

These two images are using the same pasted WB setting, what's the best way to fix my workflow? As tint is pink/green I've been juggling WB, but this is time consuming.

Is it possible I need to buy a colour checker passport thing and create profiles for all my lenses?

Disclaimer: I'm not a Lightroom Ninja.
I don't think that approach will work. I *think* lens profiles are for distortion & vignetting, not colour casts.

Camera profiles would work - but you'd have to manually specify different profiles for each lens at import time.

Instead you could correct one image, then filter by Attribute | Lens and sync the WB between all the images from each lens.
I think I'd try to fix the issue earlier in the workflow. i.e. create different WB presents for each lens on the camera. My D750s allow me to store a couple of different tweaked 'auto' white balance settings.

Even better - I wonder if there's a colour correction filter that you could put on the front of the lens? ISTR there used to be a thing called a 1/8 plusgreen - and a whole range of others. A regular film user might know more.

 

[Faldrax]

...
Is it possible I need to buy a colour checker passport thing and create profiles for all my lenses?
...

A colour checker passport should do exactly this - you take a photo of the passport using a given lens, then used the software that comes with it to create a custom profile for that camera / lens / lighting combination.
It's a bit of a faff to all sort out, and I've not noticed a significant variation between the lenses I own, so I tend to only use it when I have some weird lighting to handle, but I'm not trying to sell a perfectly matched set of images.
In theory, once you have the profiles done once in 'normal' lighting you shoudl be OK - WB tweaks shoudl be sufficient.
As Simon said, these are not 'lens profiles', so wouldn't get auto applied - you would need to select the relevant camera / processing profile for each image (or groups of images)

 

[Dave Canon]

I have never seen a WB issue between lenses. However, I have between cameras and do have a colour checker passport and have created a colour profile for each camera. The colour profile is automatically applied on import to LR.

Dave

 

[dancook]

Instead you could correct one image, then filter by Attribute | Lens and sync the WB between all the images from each lens.

That is what I currently do - this particular event over 3 hours, saw a changing mix of daylight and artificial as well as being dependent on location in the church, it is a pain of having to split the changes between two lenses every time you want to make a small WB tweak to a section of images.

And each time you're still trying to match two different lenses by eye and every time you tweak..

 

[dancook]

I have never seen a WB issue between lenses. However, I have between cameras and do have a colour checker passport and have created a colour profile for each camera. The colour profile is automatically applied on import to LR.

Dave

I might be calling it a WB issue incorrectly, just because I can solve it with WB (albeit with annoyances)

I tried the lenses and then again on the other camera - the issue seemed to be with the lens - using the same WB both 70-200 have a slight increased magenta to the middle frame.

24-70, 70-200, 70-200, 24-70

 

[dancook]

Just found I have a Spyder Checker 24, hopefully that's enough colours to calibrate by.

 

[juggler]

I've been digging, these links may help..

Rosco Color Correction Photo Filter Kit. 30.48 x 30.48cm

Rosco Color Correction Photo Filter Kit. 30.48 x 30.48cm. Contains one piece of 16 different filters that adjust the colour rendering of light

www.teamworkphoto.com

Lee Magenta 025 resin CC Filter | Wex Photo Video

These filters control the spectrum by reducing the transmission at specific wavelengths. They are primarily used to colour balance films, the required filter be

www.wexphotovideo.com

Colour Temperature Calculator

Try our interactive Colour Temperature Calculator to quickly find the lighting filter you need to precisely convert colour temperature. Simple to use.

leefilters.com

 

[dancook]

I've been digging, these links may help..

Rosco Color Correction Photo Filter Kit. 30.48 x 30.48cm

Rosco Color Correction Photo Filter Kit. 30.48 x 30.48cm. Contains one piece of 16 different filters that adjust the colour rendering of light

www.teamworkphoto.com

Lee Magenta 025 resin CC Filter | Wex Photo Video

These filters control the spectrum by reducing the transmission at specific wavelengths. They are primarily used to colour balance films, the required filter be

www.wexphotovideo.com

Colour Temperature Calculator

Try our interactive Colour Temperature Calculator to quickly find the lighting filter you need to precisely convert colour temperature. Simple to use.

leefilters.com

Funky! thanks

Though clever, it does seem like an extreme solution - I've never heard of anyone else using them, but surely others are overcoming the same problem.

 

[Box Brownie]

I can do a WB match off the wall using the rear wall in both of these image, and they will then look seemingly the same WB but ..

24-70 - gives me 2850 and +11 tint
70-200 - gives me 2750 and + 2 tint

This WB output though isn't what I want, I want to adjust the WB to taste and have them both match - but I'm not starting from the same place I can't just paste them.

Hmmm but a white(?) wall does not provide a known/standardised WB reference that a WhiBal card does or indeed as your use of the Colorpassport reference would.

 

[dancook]

Hmmm but a white(?) wall does not provide a known/standardised WB reference that a WhiBal card does or indeed as your use of the Colorpassport reference would.

If I use the same WB setting across both lenses the output differs, so it's expected that to match them visually the WB the settings will differ between lenses.

The standardised WB card, is not necessary the WB I want to use - I might decide to warm it up or cool it down, but once I start making adjustments the differing settings means I still can't copy them to the other lens I'd be back to having to eye them up against each other manually.

 

[realspeed]

why not just get an 18 per cent grey card and preset your camera with each lens. then all you have to do is go to the presets on the camera
pure black- pure white and grey

 

[dancook]

why not just get an 18 per cent grey card and preset your camera with each lens.

Each lens will record different values for the WB to match the grey and later when I want to adjust the WB to taste - I've got to still do it twice and eye them up to match each other.

Added to that in this instance lighting is different in different parts of a room, and it changes with the passage of time as day turns to night - the lights at the back of the room show up as very yellow later in the evening.

Oh and because I also photograph theatre, and lots of other things.

 

[dancook]

Running spyder datacolor, it gave me a lightroom preset not a profile - A preset would not work for me, but I tried it anyway applying the preset to the photos above and then trying out matching the WB or setting them to the same, they are still inconsistent in their values.

 

[dancook]

I notice the WB difference seems quite consistent, so with super basic math I can calculate the WB for the 'other' lens.

If I set the 24-70 to taste, a difference of -300 / -11 for the 70-200 looks about right.

I'll have to see how well this holds up for other stuff.

 

[TimHughes]

@dancook did you look at creating a custom camera profile for each body/lens combination in camera raw, then make them available in LR? This link may help https://mikkolagerstedt.com/blog/how-to-create-and-use-color-profiles-lightroom-and-camera-raw

 

[dancook]

@dancook did you look at creating a custom camera profile for each body/lens combination in camera raw, then make them available in LR? This link may help https://mikkolagerstedt.com/blog/how-to-create-and-use-color-profiles-lightroom-and-camera-raw

this looks perfect! If it's what it looks like then I can embed the WB difference in the profile and then paste across the set much easier

 

[dancook]

@dancook did you look at creating a custom camera profile for each body/lens combination in camera raw, then make them available in LR? This link may help https://mikkolagerstedt.com/blog/how-to-create-and-use-color-profiles-lightroom-and-camera-raw

My mistake, when i saw the whites +15 - I thought it was white balance temperature (of course it's not)

Doesn't look like you can offset the temperature using a profile.

 

[TimHughes]

My mistake, when i saw the whites +15 - I thought it was white balance temperature (of course it's not)

Doesn't look like you can offset the temperature using a profile.

you may be able to get close using the color mixer, color grading or calibration controls

 

[swanseamale47]

I might be calling it a WB issue incorrectly, just because I can solve it with WB (albeit with annoyances)

I tried the lenses and then again on the other camera - the issue seemed to be with the lens - using the same WB both 70-200 have a slight increased magenta to the middle frame.

24-70, 70-200, 70-200, 24-70

Have you got a filter on the lens? I had a similar issue years back and on comparing filters, one skylight (my filter of choice then) had a noticable pink colour compared to all my other filters (all marked the same)

 

[LeeRatters]

@dancook did you look at creating a custom camera profile for each body/lens combination in camera raw, then make them available in LR? This link may help https://mikkolagerstedt.com/blog/how-to-create-and-use-color-profiles-lightroom-and-camera-raw

My mistake, when i saw the whites +15 - I thought it was white balance temperature (of course it's not)

Doesn't look like you can offset the temperature using a profile.

Can you make a custom camera profile using just RGB curves to balance the yellow/blue and green/magenta for one lens?

Then using the WB slider as usual throughout should keep them matching?

In theory at least.....

 

[dancook]

Have you got a filter on the lens? I had a similar issue years back and on comparing filters, one skylight (my filter of choice then) had a noticable pink colour compared to all my other filters (all marked the same)

No filter on lens

 

[dancook]

Can you make a custom camera profile using just RGB curves to balance the yellow/blue and green/magenta for one lens?

Then using the WB slider as usual throughout should keep them matching?

In theory at least.....

Thanks, it was FIDDLY but I got there in the end

these two images share the same WB, but now the new profile I setup for the 24-70 reduces the green tint and cools the image so very slightly using the curves.

 

[dancook]

Thanks all for the help, this worked across an entire set and I will keep using it going forward.

Now I can paste WB changes throughout a set to both lenses without the tint problem.

I tried a Sony group and got responses like (a little paraphrased)

• You should buy cine lenses if you want matching outputs
• The 24-70 lets in so much more light why would you expect the same colour
• The hard way is how it should be done

 

[LeeRatters]

Thanks all for the help, this worked across an entire set and I will keep using it going forward.

Now I can paste WB changes throughout a set to both lenses without the tint problem.

I tried a Sony group and got responses like (a little paraphrased)

• You should buy cine lenses if you want matching outputs
• The 24-70 lets in so much more light why would you expect the same colour
• The hard way is how it should be done

Collective minds

 

[dancook]

I'm already questioning to myself where this could be a global solution or actually this issue could be exacerbated by lighting, I've had to deal with often enough - but I'm not always this frustrated about it yay for variables.

 

[Dave Canon]

I am still unconvinced that this is a lens problem as I have never heard of this in my 50 years in photography. However, there is a colour calibration issue between cameras including between two cameras of the same make/model. Lighting variations can make a huge difference. I have done some theatre photography and it can be vary challenging with the lighting constantly changing. This effect is normally just WB so can be dealt with by synching WB between the image judged to be correct and the others. Whatever, if you have found a solution which works for you then fine.

Dave

 

[dancook]

I am still unconvinced that this is a lens problem as I have never heard of this in my 50 years in photography. However, there is a colour calibration issue between cameras including between two cameras of the same make/model. Lighting variations can make a huge difference. I have done some theatre photography and it can be vary challenging with the lighting constantly changing. This effect is normally just WB so can be dealt with by synching WB between the image judged to be correct and the others. Whatever, if you have found a solution which works for you then fine.

Dave

The solution worked for the church, but it doesn't seem like the problem is consistent.

The differences between the lenses are much more slight when I do controlled test shots, I can still tell them apart by the colour but they are not miles apart with like Monday night in the Church or they have been in the past.

I switched the lenses around on the cameras and the lenses performed exactly the same as they did on the other camera, but of course there's no chasm in colour difference to look out for.

Both shots at WB 3000 / TINT 16 and I've applied their Spyder datacolor presets - but before the preset they were just as similar so not much point. I can still see a slight warm/magenta bias on the 70-200, but not the +300/-11 I was getting Monday.

I guess I shall look out for what lighting scenarios cause such a problem, and I wonder why it affects the lenses differently.

24-70



70-200

 

[ShinySideUp]

Could it not be that you are comparing a 24-70 with a 70-200 and each capture is going to be different because the camera is going to take into account narrower or wider elements in the same scene. For example, the original images above show that one image has predominately blue and orange and the other one is predominantly white. Perhaps I'm missing the point here but you can't expect the camera to differentiate what you want from your lenses from what it itself sees. Just a thought.

 

[dancook]

Could it not be that you are comparing a 24-70 with a 70-200 and each capture is going to be different because the camera is going to take into account narrower or wider elements in the same scene. For example, the original images above show that one image has predominately blue and orange and the other one is predominantly white. Perhaps I'm missing the point here but you can't expect the camera to differentiate what you want from your lenses from what it itself sees. Just a thought.

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but If what you suggest was correct, then almost every photo even from even the same lens zoomed in or out or composed different would have no colour consistency between shots.

 

[Dave Canon]

Sorry if I have misunderstood, but If what you suggest was correct, then almost every photo even from even the same lens zoomed in or out or composed different would have no colour consistency between shots.

If you had auto white balance set, then that would be the case.

Dave

 

[dancook]

If you had auto white balance set, then that would be the case.

Dave

in that case I get that, but I am setting a fixed WB in post.

So is that not the same as setting it in camera?

Will I get a different result if I fix the wb to tungsten in camera, than shooting auto wb and setting to tungsten in lightroom?

Will the mixed auto-wb setting create inconsistencies that setting a fixed wb in post will not fix?

 

[TimHughes]

in that case I get that, but I am setting a fixed WB in post.

So is that not the same as setting it in camera?

Will I get a different result if I fix the wb to tungsten in camera, than shooting auto wb and setting to tungsten in lightroom?

Will the mixed auto-wb setting create inconsistencies that setting a fixed wb in post will not fix?

I've never noticed that. I'm shooting a lot of stage shows too and WB is often a challenge. Usually, I shoot with WB of any dominant spots, often that is something close to tungsten. For that I have a WB filter so I can go the stage before the show and set custom WB for each camera. But that's not always possible and can cost a lot of each time at the venue before doors open. That could be another solution as it would address any color cast from specific lenses.

 

[wookie6262]

What are you shooting in camera. Would it be possible to apply a setting in camera so that the output matches and saves you all the bother. I think you can apply magenta and green shifts to teh standard settings like cloud etc so that might give you teh correct out of camera results. Looks like you have swapped lenses to try on both cameras so you can't have nudged a setting for a specific event and then forgot about it. I've done that before

 

[ShinySideUp]

If you had auto white balance set, then that would be the case.

Dave

This is what I was getting at in my reply. Auto white balance is never going to make the WB of two different images be exactly the same. More white or less white will change the exposure settings as well. I would have thought that the OP, to ensure exactly the same results with different lenses would have to use a particular WB, and manual exposure (perhaps using an incident exposure meter or a grey card to set it), only then can they be sure of getting consistent results across lenses and focal lengths.

 

[dancook]

This is what I was getting at in my reply. Auto white balance is never going to make the WB of two different images be exactly the same. More white or less white will change the exposure settings as well. I would have thought that the OP, to ensure exactly the same results with different lenses would have to use a particular WB, and manual exposure (perhaps using an incident exposure meter or a grey card to set it), only then can they be sure of getting consistent results across lenses and focal lengths.

but what I’m trying to understand

If I use a grey card, all the photos come out with a consistent look, but I want them all warmer (for e.g.) so I edit one photo’s WB and then paste it across all the photos.

Did the grey card help? Because I’m still overwriting the WB as I do when I use auto WB.

Does using the grey card change the image/colour data captured in the raw? Above and beyond just a WB value for the editing software to interpret ?

 

[dancook]

What are you shooting in camera. Would it be possible to apply a setting in camera so that the output matches and saves you all the bother. I think you can apply magenta and green shifts to teh standard settings like cloud etc so that might give you teh correct out of camera results. Looks like you have swapped lenses to try on both cameras so you can't have nudged a setting for a specific event and then forgot about it. I've done that before

After doing controlled tests it doesn’t seem to be a consistent amount, so maybe the auto white balance does change the colours beyond what the white balance setting in lightroom can consistently/accurately recover. Maybe I underestimate the value of setting a fixed white balance in camera, even if I’m going to change it to taste.

 

[dancook]

Do Not Let White Balance Throw You Off-Balance

White balance: does it or does it not affect RAW image data at all? Certainly it affects JPEG, but how and why? We are going to demonstrate that setting the white balance in a camera has no effect on "normal" RAW data. To do so, we took four shots under the same, fairly constant, light, varying...

www.fastrawviewer.com

For example this site claims the in camera white balance does not affect the colour data stored in the raw.

So in this case I could shoot a whole mismatch of white balance, then choose my own preferred custom wb in post and use it across the set. It should not matter if I used a consistent wb when shooting.

But of course they might be wrong


The only problem then is that a consistent WB value did not give a similar look between lenses in this lighting scenario.