I Am A Published Photographer

fabs said:
In other words,as an amateur, don't be too surprised if your post gets a few pros excited. Conversely, if you are a pro, cut people some slack and don't get too upset if an amateur posts something that may infringe on your beliefs.
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I think thats bob on myself :)
 
Arkady said:
No no no!!!

Stab them in the legs with sharpened monopods and then cut their throats with torn-off strips of Kodachrome!!!

:cautious:
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Believe me Rob, there are full time pros who would love to do that to fellow togs simply because theyre not "full time"
 
Gary Coyle said:
Believe me Rob, there are full time pros who would love to do that to fellow togs simply because theyre not "full time"
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Its fun winding some people up.. talking loudly how your glad to be out in the fresh air after working at mcdonalds all week :)
 
KIPAX said:
Its fun winding some people up.. talking loudly how your glad to be out in the fresh air after working at mcdonalds all week :)
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throw into the mix about how you don't really need the money as your family owns Cheshire or something - that always goes down well...
 
Arkady said:
throw into the mix about how you don't really need the money as your family owns Cheshire or something - that always goes down well...
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Do you like my new 400 2.8 lens.. My dad bought it me for my birthday.. :)
 
Having read the above I would be interested to hear what others thoughts were on submitting photos to the local newspapers.

On one hand as an amateur, your taking photos of your local team(s) and your the only photographer there so submitting them to the local papers and getting them published is a great feeling (i suspect) for you and your team.

On the other hand, by submitting the photos it means that the paper doesn't need to employ someone to take the photos (even on the rare occasions that they do send someone to photograph your team) doing them out of a job.

So what do you suggest... offer the photos after each game at a fee and hope that one day the paper wants them? or without a fee and hope that one day the paper will want them?

The other thing to take into account as an amateur can we take a fee for our photos? How is this covered on the books of the paper and would it be possible to get in trouble with the tax man. I assume you would, but have no idea how you declare that additional earning even if it is only a couple of quid here and there?
 
lee said:
On the other hand, by submitting the photos it means that the paper doesn't need to employ someone to take the photos (even on the rare occasions that they do send someone to photograph your team) doing them out of a job.
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the effect it would have is one less job/opportunity for a freelancer.. no job losses.. no children starving at the dinner table..

lee said:
So what do you suggest... offer the photos after each game at a fee and hope that one day the paper wants them? or without a fee and hope that one day the paper will want them?
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niether of the above.. go and see the pic editor.. find out if they will buy the pics off you on a regular basis.. if not then dont send and he has to send a freelancer and pay.. or send for free knowing a freelancer is losing out and then its up to you how you feel about that...

Your pics.. your decision :)
 
lee said:
Having read the above I would be interested to hear what others thoughts were on submitting photos to the local newspapers.

On one hand as an amateur, your taking photos of your local team(s) and your the only photographer there so submitting them to the local papers and getting them published is a great feeling (i suspect) for you and your team.

On the other hand, by submitting the photos it means that the paper doesn't need to employ someone to take the photos (even on the rare occasions that they do send someone to photograph your team) doing them out of a job.

So what do you suggest... offer the photos after each game at a fee and hope that one day the paper wants them? or without a fee and hope that one day the paper will want them?

The other thing to take into account as an amateur can we take a fee for our photos? How is this covered on the books of the paper and would it be possible to get in trouble with the tax man. I assume you would, but have no idea how you declare that additional earning even if it is only a couple of quid here and there?
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Your always going to get the one who will send any old stuff to local papers, in a hope it will be published, so they can have the bragging rights of being published.

I would like to think even if someone doesnt want paying for a pic they submit, that the pic is of good enough quality it deserves the going rate for publication, the tog should ask for the going rate and give the money to charity.... will they do that NO, why because it probably wouldnt be published if they asked for payment.

As a surf photographer I have seen the rate of pay drop by over 50% in the last 4 - 5 years all because people give away shots for free. This has resulted in myself only covering events I have been paid to cover. The upside it has made me do more studio and commercial work which pays more.

So a post like the OP's will get the sort of response it has on a forum like this.

right i'm off to cook my diner.
 
KIPAX said:
the effect it would have is one less job/opportunity for a freelancer.. no job losses.. no children starving at the dinner table..



niether of the above.. go and see the pic editor.. find out if they will buy the pics off you on a regular basis.. if not then dont send and he has to send a freelancer and pay.. or send for free knowing a freelancer is losing out and then its up to you how you feel about that...

Your pics.. your decision :)
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I realise the effect of doing someone out of a job, I was trying to put that forward as one side of the discussion.

With regards going to see the pic editor, its a good option, but the easy answer is from them would be no, and you then never get the opportunity to see you work in print.

Although I guess the pic editor would quite quickly block your emails if you were spamming him with photos he didn't want, if you decided to just send them to him.
 
lee said:
I realise the effect of doing someone out of a job, I was trying to put that forward as one side of the discussion.
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Sorry I dont understand? so we both agree it wouldnt put anyone out of a job? I dont understand why you said it then.. I presumed you where looking for advice ... Are you photographing a football team and have pictures available or not?


lee said:
With regards going to see the pic editor, its a good option, but the easy answer is from them would be no, and you then never get the opportunity to see you work in print.
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Why would the easy answer be no.. if he needs pictures then he either pays you or a freelancer or gets them off you for free... I cant see why he would say no and not have any pics. Also my go see him should include.. visit , phone or email.. basically talk to him/her
 
KIPAX said:
Sorry I dont understand? so we both agree it wouldnt put anyone out of a job? I dont understand why you said it then.. I presumed you where looking for advice ... Are you photographing a football team and have pictures available or not?
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Sorry I misread your previous comment, as the effect of putting someone out of a job. Have reread it again and see what your saying. sorry.....

My own situation is that I have been asked to take photos of my local rugby team for there website, as I have done on occasion in the past. I have never sent them to the local paper but have considered it, but I don't really feel comfortable about giving them free of charge. Not because I want to make money but similar to the comments above about devaluing the photography and the photographers. If I am making sense.


Why would the easy answer be no.. if he needs pictures then he either pays you or a freelancer or gets them off you for free... I cant see why he would say no and not have any pics. Also my go see him should include.. visit , phone or email.. basically talk to him/her
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I am probably being a little bit pessimistic thinking the easy answer in no, like you say he does need pictures...thanks for your comments/advice.
 
Just to try and put a positive spin on this thread, wouldnt it be a good move if the OP contacted his local and thanked them for using his pics and would they be interested in using him in the future..................... for a small fee of course?(y)
 
WOW this has opened a few eyes I'm sure.....

First of all, with the OP having over 2000 posts, im sure he knew about feelings on here about giving away for free, and im also sure it was the excitement that got the better of him in his words, it did for me too when I got "published".

After spending some time on this forum, and having a few chats with local togs, I quickly realised that free isn't always the best way to go. Not just for the papers who get a great deal, but on a more personal level where if they are worth paying for, your doing something right. Not everyone wants to earn from their pics, thats their choice.

I used to fill facebook with my pics and they got lots of great comments, when I stopped, people started asking why, my reply was - 'if you want better pics than your mum takes, I need better gear, simples!' A few paid for the pics and that is when it clicked. Don't undervalue what you can do, if you want people to look at your pics, get them on the web, look at your stats and be pleased if you get hits. If you want to improve your photography, get paid for your work, even if it's the travel expenses in getting the shot.

Still learning and still listening, but getting better with the help of everyone on here.

Phil.
 
Arkady said:
No no no!!!

Stab them in the legs with sharpened monopods and then cut their throats with torn-off strips of Kodachrome!!!

:cautious:
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So unprocessed Kodachrome does still have a use? :D
 
snapzz said:
Just to try and put a positive spin on this thread, wouldnt it be a good move if the OP contacted his local and thanked them for using his pics and would they be interested in using him in the future..................... for a small fee of course?(y)
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To qupte Mr M Loaf



You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth
 
I think there needs to be a bit of give-and-take and understanding on both "sides."

Personally, I don't believe the OP was deliberately winding anyone up and it's a bit churlish not congratulating someone who has been published for the very first time, albeit for free.

Having said that, it is right to point out the issues and it wouldn't be particularly wise to continue donating pictures for free having got the first one under your belt. If your work is good enough to be used regularly then it is good enough to earn a fee. A good move now would be to folllow up with an email/letter/phone call to the editor thanking him for using your pictures, saying you are glad he liked them and enquiring about the usual rates of payment for future submissions. Be proactive and ask if there are any events comming up that he would like covered.

Of course, there is always the issue that, even if you are getting paid as an "amatuer" contributer, are you being paid the same rates as a pro? This is a slightly more difficult issue because the editor may well take advantage of your inexperience and potentially you could unwittingly divert work away from a pro purely on the basis that you are cheaper. The only way around this is to try to get to know some of the other freelancers and ask what rates they receive.

Amateurs do have a right to compete with pros but they also have a responsibility to ensure that they compete fairly.

Whoops, was still typing this when the previous comment was posted - sorry for the duplication.
 
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Truth is most amateurs can't compete on competence. Freelancing for a local paper means you have to have the skill and equipment to cover a wide range of subject matter - from portraits - to handshakes - to group shots - sport - weddings - local events - celebs - hard news - everything. Not many amateurs have the experience to do that - nor are they available when things happen - which could be anytime - Sun - Sat - round the clock - rain or shine. So amateurs are not very likely to be offered commissions unless they have proved they can handle them. Pictures sent in on spec - which can be used for free will always be fair game though - so don't send them in - unless you have an agreement to be paid.
 
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awp said:
Truth is most amateurs can't compete on competence. Freelancing for a local paper means you have to have the skill and equipment to cover a wide range of subject matter - from portraits - to handshakes - to group shots - sport - weddings - local events - celebs - hard news - everything. Not many amateurs have the experience to do that - nor are they available when things happen - which could be anytime - Sun - Sat - round the clock - rain or shine. So amateurs are not very likely to be offered commissions unless they have proved they can handle them. Pictures sent in on spec - which can be used for free will always be fair game though - so don't send them in - unless you have an agreement to be paid.
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But we all have to start somewhere the paper are not likely to publish dross even if they are free so us amateurs must have to prove a certain level of competence and once we have proved that maybe we can move on to getting paid for our work.
I fully accept the time comment I am away on business regularly but my weekends are free so if I prove my competence and am able to move onto paid work the money can go towards improving my current amateur kit and who knows where things may then go
 
CaptainPenguin said:
the paper are not likely to publish dross even if they are free
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Nigel, this statement clearly shows your ignorance and lack of understanding how newspapers, particularly the smaller weekly town/village editions work and even more so in these hard times, papers are hard hit by the recession, advertising revenue which is the lifeblood of any newspaper (sales alone dont make a profit) has massivly subsided given that many of those advertisers themselves have gone out of business or are severely restricting their own advertising budgets, all papers be it the Daily Mirror or the Walford Gazette operate the same and if in these hard times they can save a few quid by publishing "dross" for free they will do it to save money.

Scour every single daily newspaper and there will be an email address for readers to send in their photos and column inches given over to these sorts of photos.

Even the big daily papers publish rubbish/dross photos every day, the papers i submit my RL photos to also publish "free dross" every single week, it fills column inches and thats all what matters to them

My own suggestion for you would be to submit small files about 300px wide with your copyright watermark across it and tell them if they like what they see that they can purchase larger res images at your or the papers general rates.

Dont forget, newsprint is published at 72ppi so even the smallest of files are suitable for newsprint purposes
 
Gary Coyle said:
Dont forget, newsprint is published at 72ppi so even the smallest of files are suitable for newsprint purposes
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I didn't know that! There's always something to learn on this forum. :)
 
I get the feeling we are all going overboard with this. Lets just remind ourselves these pics are local league to local press. If the local wanted coverage they would have sent someone but the fact is they were presented a few freebies they ran then. Now once CaptainPenquin gets over the excitement of seeing his pics in print he may then contact the editor asking if they would be interesting in more for a small fee (never going to be national rates is it!). So if the end results in CP earing a few quid on some local footie at weekends then well done to him and of course in this case he will have justified sending the first few in as freebies.

Now I'm always against anyone doing stuff just to see their name in lights but havnt we all given something away at some stage just to get a foot in the door? Just remember he contacted the local newspaper to see if they were interested not the paper trying to grab some freebie. This could be a very smart move on his part and next season he could be sat next to one of you at Molineux (y)
 
snapzz said:
I get the feeling we are all going overboard with this. Lets just remind ourselves these pics are local league to local press. If the local wanted coverage they would have sent someone but the fact is they were presented a few freebies they ran then. Now once CaptainPenquin gets over the excitement of seeing his pics in print he may then contact the editor asking if they would be interesting in more for a small fee (never going to be national rates is it!). So if the end results in CP earing a few quid on some local footie at weekends then well done to him and of course in this case he will have justified sending the first few in as freebies.

Now I'm always against anyone doing stuff just to see their name in lights but havnt we all given something away at some stage just to get a foot in the door? Just remember he contacted the local newspaper to see if they were interested not the paper trying to grab some freebie. This could be a very smart move on his part and next season he could be sat next to one of you at Molineux (y)
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Thanks for that and I am glad that you mentioned the mighty football cathedral that is Molineux,one of the problems I see with this freelance lark is that I might be asked one day to sit next to them at

cough splutter puke

The Hawthorns
 
CaptainPenguin said:
Thanks for that and I am glad that you mentioned the mighty football cathedral that is Molineux,one of the problems I see with this freelance lark is that I might be asked one day to sit next to them at

cough splutter puke

The Hawthorns
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They'll proberbly be back in the Championship by then :LOL:
 
awp said:
Truth is most amateurs can't compete on competence.
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That's rather a sweeping statement, and I,m sure there are lots of more than competent amateurs.

Let say in years to come Gary and Tony, decide to retire from the weekly grind of going round the grounds and want to have a nice quite life living of their huge pro tog earning :). Yet every now and again just for fun they go out and take a few shots, but not to make a living.

Now as photography would no longer be their prime source of income they would not be pro togs but amateurs. I can't believe your saying they would not be competent any more.

I would guess there are many many former newspaper staff togs in the not my prime source of income situation, so not technically a Pro.
 
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I think people sometimes get confused between Pro tog and full time tog, in my eyes a professional is someone who gets paid for his work, anyone else is an amateur but certainly not in the sense that they have no/less ability than a Pro

However, lets be fair, being a Pro or full timer doesn't necessarily make you any good.
 
fabs said:
Indeed and I said pretty much the same in my post with regard to the ratio of pros to amateurs, just wanted to clear up any possible misconceptions as to the reasons behind setting up the section.

That said, yhe average user will want to post in the section they feel most appropriate for the subject and can't really be expected to work out the ratio of pro to am threads beforehand so I expect there may need to be some give and take from both sides. In other words,as an amateur, don't be too surprised if your post gets a few pros excited. Conversely, if you are a pro, cut people some slack and don't get too upset if an amateur posts something that may infringe on your beliefs.
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Being an enthusiastic amateur, I'm rather hoping that I can get ideas, hints and tip from the people who have more experience. As such you may well get some questions you consider simple (such as my IS question) but sometimes things you take for granted we've never considered or heard of.
 
Byker28i said:
Being an enthusiastic amateur, I'm rather hoping that I can get ideas, hints and tip from the people who have more experience. As such you may well get some questions you consider simple (such as my IS question) but sometimes things you take for granted we've never considered or heard of.
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Ah, but in those circumstances and and the manner of your question, people are more than happy to help.

Surprising as it sounds, we don't always know the answers! :nuts: I'm still learning hints, tips and tricks about sports photography and i've been doing it for 6 years at a high level. There are just some subjects that will provoke a big response...and the original post in this thread is one of them. Granted, Nigel has now realised that his post came across a little provocatively but it is inevitable. It's like being at any sporting event across the country...eventually there will be an element of bitching. The lucky thing is that most of the time, sports togs realise it early on and don't let it ruin the event.

Let's make it the same here! (y)
 
PsiFox said:
Apparently "sports" is the new "weddings";)
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Well, themed weddings are becoming more popular. Has anybody yet had a request to shoot a wedding party playing Rugby? - And who would be best to shoot it, a wedding tog or a sports tog? :D

Think of the arguments we could have on TP then! :p
 
CaptainPenguin said:
Just to say that eldest daughter has just called as a friend of hers wants me to do her wedding next year


AND I AM BEING PAID
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Ironic.. I am doing a wedding in october this yr and I am NOT getting paid..
 
fabs said:
*cough* splutter* KIPAX...............doing a wedding??? :eek:
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I know :( I even started a thread on TP asking how I could get out of it... Its OK having all these rules about not doing weddings and making sure everyone knows.. But a mate (who doesnt use the www) catches you off guard when not drunk but enough to have your guard down... then being a gobby git you say it will be his wedding present cus hes a mate..

sigh :(
 
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