I want to flash......

candlestick

candlestick

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Help please - I'm off to a couple of back to back weddings at the weekend, and I think I'm going to take the big camera for a run out. I got fairly decent results at my last wedding, but really haven't got to grips with the flash side of things. I've got a 430ex flashgun, with a stofen diffuser which I'll be using. What's the best way to set up the flash exposure I want - can you describe button settings if possible. I'm guessing I want to bounce the flash upwards if the ceilings are low enough inside, to reduce shadows, and use it directly with the stofen if I need to fill flash on any outdoor shots. Do I first set the exposure manually in camera, and then introduce the flash manually, or not? If I'm going down the manual route, which buttons should I be interested in on the back of the flash?? I know I can flash compensate in camera - does this in turn increase/reduce the flash power.

Any tips will be gratefully accepted!!! :D:thumbs:
 
I'm sure someone will come along and correct me but the only advice I can give on exposing would be: When outside, expose for the background, then introduce the flash to simply fill in the shadows. That way the background is correctly exposed without boosting the sky into highlights and with the flash, the subject is correctly lit without silhouetting.
 
You need to get some practise in fast ;)

I would leave the StoFen in the up/forward position, and I would not use manual flash exposure control. It's very difficult and every time you change distance you have to reset everything. Use E-TTL and all the clever technology that comes with it, but if your subject is off centre, be sure to use FE lock (it's in the handbook) or you'll get flash exposure for the background and the main subject will be way over exposed.

When you have a separate Canon flash gun, the flash controls the flash exposure, and the camera controls the ambient. The flash overrides any on-camera settings. Av does fill flash very well for me, then I use the compensation controls to balance the two flash and ambient exposures.
 
HoppyUK said:
You need to get some practise in fast ;)

I would leave the StoFen in the up/forward position, and I would not use manual flash exposure control. It's very difficult and every time you change distance you have to reset everything. Use E-TTL and all the clever technology that comes with it, but if your subject is off centre, be sure to use FE lock (it's in the handbook) or you'll get flash exposure for the background and the main subject will be way over exposed.

When you have a separate Canon flash gun, the flash controls the flash exposure, and the camera controls the ambient. The flash overrides any on-camera settings. Av does fill flash very well for me, then I use the compensation controls to balance the two flash and ambient exposures.
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Last time I let the flash work it all out itself - I think I was in AV, and it did a pretty reasonable job. I have read the manual, but haven't really grasped the flash controls in the same way I understand the camera (which I usually use in manual). It is quite worrying given that I'm the main tog at both weddings - I really should get some practice in....;) :D
 
I'm not really a wedding tog btw!! :D I am just fancying getting some practice in with my flash gun - I promise not to get in the way of anybody who might actually be the pro at these weddings (Ennerdale/Cumbria on Friday, Boothstown/Salford on Saturday).
 
candlestick said:
Last time I let the flash work it all out itself - I think I was in AV, and it did a pretty reasonable job. I have read the manual, but haven't really grasped the flash controls in the same way I understand the camera (which I usually use in manual).
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I can't comment on the buttons to press of the ins and outs of Cannon flash, but try to get as much ambient light in as possible and then finish the exposure with a little gentle flash - sounds easy :) but practice lots

candlestick said:
It is quite worrying given that I'm the main tog at both weddings - I really should get some practice in....;) :D
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you're braver than me saying that around here - time for :popcorn:

Hugh

eta - just noticed your next post - still think you're brave even joking about it
 
The Weddings Police will be along shortly to chop your balls off, so I'll leave you to them :)

Manual exposure control is a bit of a misnomer IMHO. We all use different modes and methods to get the result we want, often with some degree of 'manual' intervention. The big difference with Manual is that once you've set it, it will not change. You can use Manual just fine, with flash set on E-TTL auto, and it will try and balance the flash with the f/number you've set.

No different to Av in that respect, but in Av the camera will shift the shutter speed to maintain correct ambient exposure without you having to worry about it. That's just the way I like to work, and I trust the camera (with evaluative metering) to get at least pretty close to what I want, and then I tweak it with compensation as necessary. TBH, I sometimes tweak the flash exposure quite a lot, not so much because the camera has got it 'wrong' but with fill flash I like the result to be more subtle than obvious, so I turn it down a bit.

If you use Av, make sure the camera is set to give correct ambient exposure - on my 40D, Custom Function 1-7 should be set to auto - otherwise it will stay locked on the x-sync speed (is that 1/200sec with a 450D?) whenever the flash is switched on.

Get to know your flash unit. They are very clever devices these days and can seem a bit complicated and confusing. A few sessions with the instruction book, interspersed with some practice picture taking to see what it actually does, will get you sorted. Basically with Canon (unlike Nikon) the gun controls the flash independently, and the camera sets the ambient bit, then the two are nicely integrated in the camera's metering system that can distinguish between the two.

I'm not sure that you want to get involved with the High Speed flash sync mode just yet, or second curtain slow-sync technique (dragging the shutter), but you might like to try and balance the flash and ambient white balance if you're shooting indoors under tungsten light.

StoFen sell a yellow-orange version to do this, but I stuff mine with the cellophane wrapper from a box of Quality Street (it might have been Roses :D ). Does the same thing and I switch the camera to Tungsten white balance and it comes out a treat. This might sound a bit crude, but since every form of artificial light varies in colour temperature, it's impossible to get an exact match, so be sure to shoot Raw and tweak it in post processing.

Oh and just another tip, since you will get your balls chopped off again if you make the bride's dress green, try to get at least one reference pic with a grey card against the bride's dress. Inside of a Lowepro bag is 18% grey, and I'm going to get me a handy 18% grey lens cloth like this http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-spudz-10x10-18-grey/p1013798
 
Nice advice, cheers hoppy!! :D I believe the wedding police are monitoring the situation, with a view to arresting me in the near future!! Like I said, I am no way involved in the weddings at all, apart from as a guest, and see both days as an opportunity to get some flash practice in, even if I bin all of the shots - I haven't promised anything to anyone, but if I nail a couple of decent shots, I'll happily let the happy couples have 'em, I've got a grey card, so that's a start, and I always shoot raw now anyway, with post processing in Lightroom. I've had a tinker with 2nd curtain flash, but the results were cack!!!
 
candlestick said:
Nice advice, cheers hoppy!! :D I believe the wedding police are monitoring the situation, with a view to arresting me in the near future!! Like I said, I am no way involved in the weddings at all, apart from as a guest, and see both days as an opportunity to get some flash practice in, even if I bin all of the shots - I haven't promised anything to anyone, but if I nail a couple of decent shots, I'll happily let the happy couples have 'em, I've got a grey card, so that's a start, and I always shoot raw now anyway, with post processing in Lightroom. I've had a tinker with 2nd curtain flash, but the results were cack!!!
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Yeah, second curtain sync can be a bit of a mixed blessing unless you need light trails to move in a certain direction away from the subject, and I can't think it would be much help at a wedding.

However, thinking about it, high speed sync might well come in handy if it's a sunny day. Not sure why I dismissed it earlier TBH, as it's a brilliant feature for sunny fill flash. Especially at a wedding where their might be big hats that shade people's faces and a dab of flash is just the ticket.

It really couldn't be easier to use - set Av and just switch it on. When the camera moves the shutter speed over the x-sync max (eg 1/200sec) the flash switches to HS Sync automatically, and back again when the speed drops. You can pretty much put it on regardless and forget about it.

Only thing to be aware of is that it really maxes out the flash and even then range is reduced a lot when it's working. At the very least it will eat batteries. If it does run out of puff, taking the StoFen off will help a lot, and raising the ISO will, or lowering the f/number, too. But then again, actually lowering the ISO might drop the shutter speed so that you don't need HSF ;) StoFen doesn't do much with basic fill flash so you might want to take it off anyway - might speed up recycling and save batteries if you're running low. I guess these are the sort of things you learn with experience and preference.
 
I'm in the same boat. My mums friend is getting married on Saturday and the both demanded I be the photographer. I told them I am underqualified to be a main shooter at a wedding, and that it is a bad idea. The insisted I do it, I even tried to step away a couple of weeks ago and my mum replied "I've already told her you will be doing this!". I think my mums friend wants a cheap photographer, and that's what she's gonna get!

Anyway, i'll be using my 430ex also. I have created my own flash bounce that creates really nice lighting, especially indoors. look into it, as the stofen isn't amazing IMO
 
paleblue said:
I'm in the same boat. My mums friend is getting married on Saturday and the both demanded I be the photographer. I told them I am underqualified to be a main shooter at a wedding, and that it is a bad idea. The insisted I do it, I even tried to step away a couple of weeks ago and my mum replied "I've already told her you will be doing this!". I think my mums friend wants a cheap photographer, and that's what she's gonna get!

Anyway, i'll be using my 430ex also. I have created my own flash bounce that creates really nice lighting, especially indoors. look into it, as the stofen isn't amazing IMO
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The StoFen works, is very convenient, and robust. But there's nothing magic about it and some of the best lighting effects come from a simple homemade devises, like a bounce card here www.abetterbouncecard.com

I like this one, Lumiquest Quik - it does the lot pretty well. Soft direct flash, fill flash, bounce/fill, landscape or portrait orientation. It's also more efficient than a StoFen or Fong or whatever, as it doesn't waste light squirted out the back. http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-lumiquest-quik-bounce/p1031217
 
HoppyUK said:
Yeah, second curtain sync can be a bit of a mixed blessing unless you need light trails to move in a certain direction away from the subject, and I can't think it would be much help at a wedding.
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Actually Hoppy, its blooming fab at a wedding for shooting the first dance when you want some movement in the pic. :D
 
AliB said:
Actually Hoppy, its blooming fab at a wedding for shooting the first dance when you want some movement in the pic. :D
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Sorry to disagree, but how is it better than first-curtain slow-sync flash?

With first curtain, the flash fires as soon as the shutter is released so you have a good idea of the pose/expression. With second curtain, particularly if the ambient exposure is long, you have to guess and hope.

In either case, the movement blur is equally unpredictable. It's just that the blur goes one way with first curtain, and the other way with second curtain.
 
I prefer 2nd curtain synch because of where the light trails lie. I usually do about 1/20sec or thereabouts so there is no real appreciable difference in the timing of the exposure but, to me, the 2nd curtain gives a cleaner image because the blur/trails lie behind the sharp bit of the image where the flash has fired. With 1st curtain the blur/trails are overlaid on the sharp bit if you are not careful/lucky so I much prefer the 2nd. :)
 
AliB said:
I prefer 2nd curtain synch because of where the light trails lie. I usually do about 1/20sec or thereabouts so there is no real appreciable difference in the timing of the exposure but, to me, the 2nd curtain gives a cleaner image because the blur/trails lie behind the sharp bit of the image where the flash has fired. With 1st curtain the blur/trails are overlaid on the sharp bit if you are not careful/lucky so I much prefer the 2nd. :)
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Somehow I thought you might say that, about the 'cleaner image' bit. If only it were true, but it makes no difference whether the flash comes first or last in terms of some kind of beneficial overlay. It would rewrite the laws of physics if it was true.

This seems to be an urban myth propogated by some nightclub photographers who seem to think (not all of them!) that second curtain sync is some kind of magic bullet technique.

If you want the flash image to stand out, make sure the subject is set against a dark area of background. Again, I have to say that getting this bit right is also better handled with first curtain sync, but feel free to disagree :) I guess at 1/20sec shutter speed it makes no odds either way; 1/4sec and there's maybe a difference worth considering.
 
HoppyUK said:
I like this one, Lumiquest Quik - it does the lot pretty well. Soft direct flash, fill flash, bounce/fill, landscape or portrait orientation. It's also more efficient than a StoFen or Fong or whatever, as it doesn't waste light squirted out the back. http://www.warehouseexpress.com/buy-lumiquest-quik-bounce/p1031217
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img5655.jpg

This is my homemade one. Cost me nothing; a piece of card and a hairband I found. I backed it up with duck tape to make it more durable, but i know it won't last long. It does the job though!
 
if you use aperture priortity the 430 should automatically fill flash i.e it should atuo matically match the flash to the daylight don't take it as read try it out first
 
and dont try to use flash during the service, or the vicar/registrar will be cutting lumps of you.
if your inside, try to bounce of ceilings if ya can.
saves huge shadows behind people.
and i do use second curtain for the first dance occasionaly.
usualy with pretty long exposures.
ive been known to use 1sec or longer.
usualy after ive took a fair few in the traditional route.
 
paleblue said:
img5655.jpg

This is my homemade one. Cost me nothing; a piece of card and a hairband I found. I backed it up with duck tape to make it more durable, but i know it won't last long. It does the job though!
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Those bounce cards work brilliantly, even if they score low points for cool :)

You can vary the fill/bounce ratio a lot by reducing the size of the card, and if you attach it to the short end of the flash, it works in both horizontal and vertical framing.
 
HoppyUK said:
If only it were true, but it makes no difference whether the flash comes first or last in terms of some kind of beneficial overlay. It would rewrite the laws of physics if it was true.
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It is true if the flash image is combined with an image exposed with the ambient light. In this case it looks better to have the blur up to the point of the flashed sharp image rather than ahead of it.

If the flash is the only light source then it makes no difference.


Steve.
 
ScarySquirrel said:
How does having a bounce card like that effect the ETTL? Because surely the flash doesn't know it's on there :p
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The flash just puts out more and more light until the Through The Lens bit tells it enough and shuts it down - so what is attached to the flash does not matter as long as enough light can get out of the gun.
 
I don't use flash much but on the occasions that I have used fill flash, my method is to meter for the ambient light and set the shutter speed and aperture to give the correct exposure for that.

I then use a Vivitar 285 flash on one of its automatic settings such that it will give out enough light to under-expose by a couple of stops if it were the only light source.

The automatic mode of the flash means that I don't have to worry about the distance as the flash does all the thinking for me. It also compensates for the bounce flash adaptor I have fitted to it.

Having the camera set to manual means that all the shots will be exposed equally regardless of things like how much sky is in the image and differing colours of clothes etc. (white wedding dresses and black suits come to mind).

Obviously if the light is constantly changing then this will not work but in general it does.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
It is true if the flash image is combined with an image exposed with the ambient light. In this case it looks better to have the blur up to the point of the flashed sharp image rather than ahead of it.

If the flash is the only light source then it makes no difference.


Steve.
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So not changing the laws of physics :D

It is the mixing of ambient and flash that I like playing with and I still like 2nd curtain sych so we will just have to agree to differ. :)
 
AliB said:
So not changing the laws of physics :D

It is the mixing of ambient and flash that I like playing with and I still like 2nd curtain sych so we will just have to agree to differ. :)
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If it works for you, and clearly it does, then I wouldn't change it either :thumbs:
 
AliB said:
So not changing the laws of physics :D

It is the mixing of ambient and flash that I like playing with and I still like 2nd curtain sych so we will just have to agree to differ. :)
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I thought we were agreeing!

With second curtain flash you get the blurry bit up to the flash point which is what I would prefer.

give me a big enough hammer though and I will have a go at changing the laws of physics!


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
I thought we were agreeing!

With second curtain flash you get the blurry bit up to the flash point which is what I would prefer.

give me a big enough hammer though and I will have a go at changing the laws of physics!


Steve.
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Steve, I think it's me she's agreeing to differ with ;) She joins a long and distinguished line :D
 
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