Ice Hockey Setup Advice

drounding

drounding

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Duncan
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I'm an amateur and take ice hockey shots each week of my home team.
I had been taking reasonable shots with my 70D with a 18-135mm kit lens. I got a new Sigma 70-200mm f2.8 the other day and had great results with it taking some outdoor grass hockey but not so with my first evening at ice hockey.

I set up follows: Tv mode 1/650th, Aperture and iso on auto. Image stabiliser is off on the lens. Single point focus. The lighting inside the rink is not good.

Almost all of the images are oof and overexposed. Most shots come out with 2000 + iso and are at f2.8.

My personal thoughts are that I should perhaps trim the exposure down a stop and maybe set af to AI Servo. Not sure but maybe also enable IS as well.

I would appreciate some help please, I'm getting my knickers in a twist.
 
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First off.. your indoors and the lighting is constant so you should be using manual.. Auto modes arnt much good at ice hockey when you ahve bright white ice in a lot of shots or walls / crowds or bunch of players in others..

You already know you need f2.8 ... that only leaves ISO and shutter.. you set the ISO to the highest you can get away with.. take a couple of test shots and adjust the shutter until you get what you need.. then shoot the whole match in that

its possible that the ends or sides will be slightly darker.. you can adjust the shutter to lower as they go in these areas and back out again

single point focus is correct.. presumably your not using one shot?


PS Not done ice hockey for 2 and a half years....until this evening.. took a bit of getting back into :)
 
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Personally do you need 650th may be 250th might be better. I would also knock off the auto ISO and switch on the image stabilisation. Also try f4 may give a bit more depth for the focus. The Fro and I think Gavin Hoey did some episodes on Ice Hockey photographer, these should be on YouTube.
 
Suomi said:
Personally do you need 650th may be 250th might be better. I would also knock off the auto ISO and switch on the image stabilisation. Also try f4 may give a bit more depth for the focus. The Fro and I think Gavin Hoey did some episodes on Ice Hockey photographer, these should be on YouTube.
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I would absoloutly ignore all of the above... OK no harm in youtube.. but f4? 250th? image stabalisation? All bad advice ..
 
KIPAX said:
I would absoloutly ignore all of the above... OK no harm in youtube.. but f4? 250th? image stabalisation? All bad advice ..
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:eek: never been to an ice hockey match even though my nephew used to play (I know what a crap uncle) but as I understand it is really fast action so please please please listen to Tony (y)
 
Thanks Kipax. Next week I'll try and set up like that. I know I need a minimum of 1/500th to capture the action and f2.8. I'll adjust iso to try and get that, I think 2000 might be ok. AFServo, with lens IS off.
I've always been scared of full manual, nows the time to take the plunge. I'll post again next week with some (hopefully) better news.
 
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As drounding said that he was getting OOF at 2.8 suggesting f4 is not as draft as it seems in that he will have extra depth of field to play with. Hardly bad advice. As KIPAX says the ends could be darker if you are shooting from the middle. But it is not unusual to have mixed lighting sources in a venue, the only one I have seen with fully constant lighting was an outdoor daylight rink in Turku.
 
Suomi said:
As drounding said that he was getting OOF at 2.8 suggesting f4 is not as draft as it seems
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he had a kit lens.. the place has such poor light he went out and bought a 2.8 .... going to F4 is poor advice when you think about whats been said.. add to that his settings and you can see how much he would have to change to get back to f4... the distance he will be shooting alot of the hockey and 2.8 to 4 isnt going to make enough difference..

you dont use IS for fast moving sports unless your panning.. but you wouldnt be... not for the best bits anyway

as for your 250 shutter speed... well ..no...

so am sorry to be blunt.. but you gave 3 bits of advice all tied together...
 
drounding said:
I've always been scared of full manual, nows the time to take the plunge. I'll post again next week with some (hopefully) better news.
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Full manual is daunting in some situations.. but the easiest time to use it is in constant lighting.. you have plenty of time to experiment in a hockey game .. once you get the exposure you want.. you dont have to change anything.. unless someone turns the light off :) and yer set for the night..

drounding said:
that. I know I need a minimum of 1/500th to capture the action and f2.8..
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Eeeerm.. no... (as we know this is a dull poorly lit place) what you need to do is max the aperture.. in your case f2.8 .. then max the ISO to whatever you can get away with i... a noisy picture is better than a blurred picture so go as high as you can..

whats left is your shutter speed.. and thats what you need.. not 500.. but whatevers left..

IF your in a bright hall and your shutter is say 1000 or over then you can think about lowering the ISO maybe...

Your problem is.. your setting you camera to Tv mode and shutter 500 because someone told you you need that.. but your camera then struggles with everything else... you only have 3 variables.. max out iso.. max aperture and whats left is your shutter.. thats the speed you need :)


max aperture is my way of saying open as far as can ie 2.8 :)
 
KIPAX said:
PS very poorly lit ice arena www.kipax.com/hockey
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Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I've been trying to remember - I know my AF was set to single point but I may have set it to One Shot instead of AI Servo which presumably could also explain why many of the shots were a bit OOF (I'll check on the camera later). It's a pity that setting is not reported in the EXIF data. Time to learn to use back button focussing instead too I think.

I'm do some experimenting next week and take the plunge into manual. I'll take up your recommendations and set the aperture for f2.8, I'll try ISO initially at 3200 and see what shutter speed will give me a good exposure - at that ISO it should be fast enough to catch the action - if it's above 1/500th I'll try dropping the ISO.

Love you shots BTW, so crisp. The U10s remind me of when my son started playing 13 years ago.

Ice hockey is a great sport to shoot, lots of excitement and fast action, quite a challenge for an amateur like me, but I guess practise makes perfect.
 
Suomi said:
Personally do you need 650th may be 250th might be better. I would also knock off the auto ISO and switch on the image stabilisation. Also try f4 may give a bit more depth for the focus. The Fro and I think Gavin Hoey did some episodes on Ice Hockey photographer, these should be on YouTube.
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:LOL::LOL::LOL: i had a little leak
 
I don't know your focusing system but on a nikon you can have single or continuous. You need continuous. And you can have a delay in the continuous, you want this low or none. The DOf is pretty narrow at 2.8 so your focusing (camera movement) needs to be good. I*use singe spot 3d near the centre. Don't lock focus, pause, then shoot, if they are moving toward/away from camera (easy to do if half shutter release = focus lock).

I shot floodlit BMX at iso3200 the other night to be able to keep my shutter at 250/400 at 2.8. Certainly not as clean as iso100 but still usable.

It might be worth checking what the slowest shutter speed is you can get away with, crank up the iso to 2000, SP mode, then work up from 1/100 to 1/1000 and see when the motion blur stops. ignore any under/over exposure.

Also don't forget you can lighten it a bit in post if needed.
 
Suomi said:
As drounding said that he was getting OOF at 2.8 suggesting f4 is not as draft as it seems in that he will have extra depth of field to play with. Hardly bad advice. As KIPAX says the ends could be darker if you are shooting from the middle. But it is not unusual to have mixed lighting sources in a venue, the only one I have seen with fully constant lighting was an outdoor daylight rink in Turku.
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Duncan is getting OOF shots because his focus mode is in ONE SHOT rather than AI SERVO, despite having been advised that this was a bad idea for field hockey when he last posted some shots. It's got very little to do with the DoF and a lot more to do with completely missed focus! So yup, it is pretty bad advice.
 
drounding said:
I've been trying to remember - I know my AF was set to single point but I may have set it to One Shot instead of AI Servo which presumably could also explain why many of the shots were a bit OOF (I'll check on the camera later). It's a pity that setting is not reported in the EXIF data. Time to learn to use back button focussing instead too I think.
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Give yourself a slap over the wrist for not following the suggestions from last time! :D

Btw, are you shooting in Jpeg or RAW? If it's the former then you really need to be setting a manual WB point at the start of the shoot. AWB won't cope that well.
 
DemiLion said:
Give yourself a slap over the wrist for not following the suggestions from last time! :D

Btw, are you shooting in Jpeg or RAW? If it's the former then you really need to be setting a manual WB point at the start of the shoot. AWB won't cope that well.
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In an earlier post in the thread I said I would check the camera settings and check the AF setting. After checking, I in fact did have AI Servo selected with single point (not sure if that would be better in auto point select - possibly reading elsewhere). But I don't mind my wrist slapped anyway lol.

I am shooting in RAW + jpeg. I have a steep learning curve at the moment with both a new camera and lens to get to grips with. I'll persevere, I'm sure my ability will improve with practise and asisstance from here.
 
I've been to Basingstoke and covered figure skating there on a number of occasions. The lighting has improved over the years but is a little patchy compared with some rinks mainly due to the positioning of the lights. They also have an extractor issue when shooting in warmer months as mist forms.

What you do need is an f2.8 lens and shoot in M (as suggested). Your cameras meter will be fooled by the reflective surface of the ice so add about 1 stop over. Take a test shot to confirm this. Set desired shutterspeed and then ISO to match. IIRC at Basingstoke this would give you something like 400th @ f2.8 ISO 2000. (y)
 
snapzz said:
I've been to Basingstoke and covered figure skating there on a number of occasions. The lighting has improved over the years but is a little patchy compared with some rinks mainly due to the positioning of the lights. They also have an extractor issue when shooting in warmer months as mist forms.

What you do need is an f2.8 lens and shoot in M (as suggested). Your cameras meter will be fooled by the reflective surface of the ice so add about 1 stop over. Take a test shot to confirm this. Set desired shutterspeed and then ISO to match. IIRC at Basingstoke this would give you something like 400th @ f2.8 ISO 2000. (y)
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Thanks, all tips sppreciated. I actually go to Bracknell not Basingstoke but I think the lighting is similar.
 
What you do need is an f2.8 lens and shoot in M (as suggested). Your cameras meter will be fooled by the reflective surface of the ice so add about 1 stop over. Take a test shot to confirm this. Set desired shutterspeed and then ISO to match. IIRC at Basingstoke this would give you something like 400th @ f2.8 ISO 2000. (y)[/QUOTE]

Just to add a little to the conversation.If you shoot in manual,(which I believe is the only consistent way)the exposure compensation will have no effect on exposure.

My usual manual settings at my home rink (Cardiff) are 2.8 iso6400 and 1/800.I shot with a Nikon on continuos focus single point focus and 21 point .
Hope this adds a little to your search to find what works for.
 
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Thanks for your pointers Marcus, and great shots Btw.
There's definitely a good consensus of info forming.
 
Hi Duncan, I hope you don't mind me jumping in on your thread but I am also new at this and trying to work out a good setup with my 70D.

snapzz said:
I've been to Basingstoke and covered figure skating there on a number of occasions. The lighting has improved over the years but is a little patchy compared with some rinks mainly due to the positioning of the lights. They also have an extractor issue when shooting in warmer months as mist forms.

What you do need is an f2.8 lens and shoot in M (as suggested). Your cameras meter will be fooled by the reflective surface of the ice so add about 1 stop over. Take a test shot to confirm this. Set desired shutterspeed and then ISO to match. IIRC at Basingstoke this would give you something like 400th @ f2.8 ISO 2000. (y)
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Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by "add about 1 stop" ?

Last Sunday at Basingstoke, I was using Canon 70D on Av F2.8 with max iso1600 and most of my keepers were around 200th at iso1600! Those I binned, I guess were as you say, camera fooled by reflections and ended up with <100th ISO640 resulting in an underexposed blurred mess :thumbsdown:

If I have understood correctly, next time I should set to F2.8 ISO2000 and see what speed the camera uses and add a stop to it. Based on my "Sunday keepers" it should come up 200th, but I should set it to 100th :thinking:

DemiLion said:
Btw, are you shooting in Jpeg or RAW? If it's the former then you really need to be setting a manual WB point at the start of the shoot. AWB won't cope that well.
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What is the best way of getting a "manual WB point" at the ring ?
 
Dial in +1 exposure compensation, because of the vast areas of white the cameras meter will generally underexpose by about 1 stop
 
amaFotho said:
Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by "add about 1 stop" ?

Last Sunday at Basingstoke, I was using Canon 70D on Av F2.8 with max iso1600 and most of my keepers were around 200th at iso1600! Those I binned, I guess were as you say, camera fooled by reflections and ended up with <100th ISO640 resulting in an underexposed blurred mess :thumbsdown:

If I have understood correctly, next time I should set to F2.8 ISO2000 and see what speed the camera uses and add a stop to it. Based on my "Sunday keepers" it should come up 200th, but I should set it to 100th :thinking:

What is the best way of getting a "manual WB point" at the ring ?
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Firstly don't use AV set camera to M. Take an exposure reading of the ice and set camera firstly to f2.8 then select the desired shutter speed of 400th of a sec and then ISO to achieve "correct" exposure. In practice these will be underexposed so adjust ISO so meter reads one stop (or just under) over. Take another test shot to confirm correct exposure.

There are a number of different ways to obtain a custom WB but easiest is to take a shot of the ice and set that to custom. Other options are grey card or such devices as an expodisc.
 
I rolled up my sleeves and stepped out of semi-suto and into manual last night and started using back button focusing as well. I managed to get some better shots but still a long way to go. Back button focusing is much better.

I tried a couple of different settings but most of the keepers were 1/640th, ISO 3200, f2.8. They were still a bit under exposed (but better), next time round I'll need to try dropping the shutter speed to maybe 1/500th which I hope will help, although I haven't get very steady hands. IS was off.

I have the AF set to Servo with single (centre) spot, not sure if it would be better with the spot set to auto - another option to try out on my list.

I pp'd a few and posted some of them in another thread here:
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=5866919&postcount=47
 
After heeding some good advice (many thanks to all) I think I am seeing an improvement in my shots now. Still a long way to go but certainly an improvement from a few weeks ago.

I am now using back button focussing - far better than on the shutter button! Last night I tried increasing the exposure by upping the ISO to 4000 (I wish the lighting wasn't so bad but hey-ho), f2.8 at 1/800th.

I did a little PP on the RAW files in LR5 but not much, in fact the jpegs straight out of the camera were pretty good as they were. My keepers have definitely increased. The increased ISO is noticeable but I think worthwhile to get a better exposure, and my PP skills could probably be improved to minimise the noise.

It was hard to pick just a few but here's 6, the rest of the set are here if anyone's interested: http://www.flickr.com/photos/duncanrounding/sets/72157636537899794/

I know they could be improved at lot so any critique is always welcome.

1.

IMG_3698-100 by DRounding, on Flickr

2.

IMG_3504-7 by DRounding, on Flickr

3.

IMG_3640-54 by DRounding, on Flickr

4.

IMG_3622-46 by DRounding, on Flickr

5.

IMG_3586-32 by DRounding, on Flickr

6.

IMG_3562-24 by DRounding, on Flickr
 
These are looking good.. losing the high iso fear is a big step ... back button focus will always help.. my keeper rate in all sports went up massive..
 
I am using a clear filter on my lens, just because I have the feeling it might give my lens that little bit more protection. Now I know this is a very contentious issue but when getting the most light into the camera is so important should I remove it?

I will test with and without it when I'm next at the rink but I'm curious what others do in low light conditions.
 
KIPAX said:
These are looking good.. losing the high iso fear is a big step ... back button focus will always help.. my keeper rate in all sports went up massive..
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Agree with Tony on all counts. I can't think of any I know who shoots sports who doesn't use back button focus.

n.b. I am still trying to get over the high iso fear, BUT you have to do it :D
 
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I think we need a fight to see who started gabbing on about BBF and conquering the fear first :D
 
bigrob said:
I think we need a fight to see who started gabbing on about BBF and conquering the fear first :D
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I didnt even know about it until I read on here
 
In that case I declare the legacy is Gary's ;)
 
Hi Drounding :) I too am a massive (!!!!) hockey fan and started getting into doing the fan pictures for the Lightning (Milton Keynes) Love your pics with the Bees and Wildcats above :D Where did you get your 70-200 lens from and any ideas anyone on where the cheapest place is to find that specific lens with an F2.8 to fit a canon 5D mark 3?
 
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