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NSFW IF you were the judge in this case what would you have done?
- Thread starter LASTOLITE
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Nope - I've never condoned speeding, if you choose to do it you take the consequences. If you look at the majority of my posts you'll find I'm arguing that it's a very rare occasion where the actions of both parties don't contribute to the incident. It's something thats stressed into every rider on advanced training, positioning, manner of riding etc. You control where you choose to put your vehicle.
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Nope. It's very easy to look at a photo and make all kinds of points. But things aren't static in real life. Traffic is continuously moving and the brain doesn't process information in the same way as a static photo.
It's very easy to use the retroscope and say this or that should have happened. But neither you nor I were there. What would have been more useful is a dashcam in that car.
I'm sure it is. I used to work with a couple of guys who went out with their wives on Sunday mornings, very early, and hit 300 kms/hour on the Krugersdorp freeway after checking for cops. There wasn't much traffic, but there would have been some, and South African roads aren't always in very good condition (potholes, debris etc). I really don't mind if people want to take suicidal risks - I've done some pretty stupid things myself - but your right to be reckless with your own life doesn't extend to other peoples.
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The driver should have seen the biker, but the biker shouldn't have assumed the car driver would see him.
I would never jail someone for something like this, its unintentional and no malice was meant, the guilt and experience is enough. Did the driver of the car want this to happen? No? Would they have done it if they forseen the outcome. No? Will they take more care in the future? More than likely?
What if the biker hit the car a bit furher along, ie into the drivers door. The car driver would be dead and we would all be vilifying the biker for riding so fast and murdering an innocent. Lets say the biker did live by freak accident and the car driver died. People would be baying for his bloody going on and on about 97mph being just crazy, which to be honest, it was given the road and traffic conditions. Biker got what was coming to him, never assuming anything about other drivers other than they a) won't see you b) they will not do the sensible thing.
Neither are villians however, just some one out enjoying a fun run on their bike and someone else going about their daily business., neither should have been injured/killed gone to court and had the worry of a jail stretch. But thats life on the roads.
Had I been the judge, I doubt I'd have punished the driver at all. He's been punished with a mangled car, a facked insurance premiums, and the guilt and experience of seeing someone die for a moments inattention for not expecting the unexpected (someone going a ton on a busy road)
I would never jail someone for something like this, its unintentional and no malice was meant, the guilt and experience is enough. Did the driver of the car want this to happen? No? Would they have done it if they forseen the outcome. No? Will they take more care in the future? More than likely?
What if the biker hit the car a bit furher along, ie into the drivers door. The car driver would be dead and we would all be vilifying the biker for riding so fast and murdering an innocent. Lets say the biker did live by freak accident and the car driver died. People would be baying for his bloody going on and on about 97mph being just crazy, which to be honest, it was given the road and traffic conditions. Biker got what was coming to him, never assuming anything about other drivers other than they a) won't see you b) they will not do the sensible thing.
Neither are villians however, just some one out enjoying a fun run on their bike and someone else going about their daily business., neither should have been injured/killed gone to court and had the worry of a jail stretch. But thats life on the roads.
Had I been the judge, I doubt I'd have punished the driver at all. He's been punished with a mangled car, a facked insurance premiums, and the guilt and experience of seeing someone die for a moments inattention for not expecting the unexpected (someone going a ton on a busy road)
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I still don't get how it can be the car drivers fault. You do not expect someone to be doing 100! I would imagine most would approach the turning, look behind/side to make sure nothing (biker?) is overtaking, then look ahead and then if safe look to the turning.
As to the guilty plea - I am guessing it was a case of plead guilty and probably get a slap (fine and ban) as there was the speed of the bike to take into account. But, plead guilty could mean you get off or could go to jail. I know if there was a risk of jail I would be tempted to plead guilty to spare myself and family that (not to mention loss of job, home etc...)
As to the guilty plea - I am guessing it was a case of plead guilty and probably get a slap (fine and ban) as there was the speed of the bike to take into account. But, plead guilty could mean you get off or could go to jail. I know if there was a risk of jail I would be tempted to plead guilty to spare myself and family that (not to mention loss of job, home etc...)
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Simon
It's simply the line you cross over when turning is in effect a give way line. At that point careless or reckless driving is an almost given.
It's unarguable as such. Your right, the speed is a major factor in this, and it is mitigation with no doubt. It could also be a defence in that no reasonable driver 'without experience' of dealing with vehicles at that speed coming towards them have judged it wrongly, and assumed they had room to cross the oncoming lane. But thats on a wing and a prayer.
I think, and it is only opinion, that he could have pleaded not guilty on the grounds that while the offence of careless is debatable, the cause of the riders death was his excessive speed.
However, we'll never know, he pleaded guilty, that could be because he did see the driver and just went for it, we can't know the evidence because it would not have been given.
As I said, the speed of the other vehicle is mitigation, which is why when you compare sentences, although its not scientific, the sentence was on the low side for similar offences.
It's simply the line you cross over when turning is in effect a give way line. At that point careless or reckless driving is an almost given.
It's unarguable as such. Your right, the speed is a major factor in this, and it is mitigation with no doubt. It could also be a defence in that no reasonable driver 'without experience' of dealing with vehicles at that speed coming towards them have judged it wrongly, and assumed they had room to cross the oncoming lane. But thats on a wing and a prayer.
I think, and it is only opinion, that he could have pleaded not guilty on the grounds that while the offence of careless is debatable, the cause of the riders death was his excessive speed.
However, we'll never know, he pleaded guilty, that could be because he did see the driver and just went for it, we can't know the evidence because it would not have been given.
As I said, the speed of the other vehicle is mitigation, which is why when you compare sentences, although its not scientific, the sentence was on the low side for similar offences.
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As hard as it may be to get your head round, the bike did in fact have the right of way in this instance.
Bernie is right in that any traffic turning right here is obliged to Give Way to the oncoming traffic. The painted lines on the road indicate this.
But remember...... The hospitals, and indeed the morgues, are full of people who "had the right of way".
Bernie is right in that any traffic turning right here is obliged to Give Way to the oncoming traffic. The painted lines on the road indicate this.
But remember...... The hospitals, and indeed the morgues, are full of people who "had the right of way".
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The driving of the car driver fell below the standard of that of a careful competent driver.
I'd say the riding of the biker fell far below the standard of that of a careful competent driver.
Sentence is fair. There's no good sending the car driver to jail. It'll achieving nothing.
I'd say the riding of the biker fell far below the standard of that of a careful competent driver.
Sentence is fair. There's no good sending the car driver to jail. It'll achieving nothing.
Sorry to have to disagree with you, but as an ex biker, I was always taught to ride defensively, and that certainly did not mean that I was a "goody goody" all the time.
The biker, riding at around 100MPH in that situation was an accident waiting to happen.
It is all too easy to say that someone should not have pulled out on him, but when you are so far over the limit, you do not give other road users a chance to react.
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It's not up to the police, it's the crown prosecution service.
The police gather the evidence, the CPS decide on prosecution
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Ok, in order for him to have pleaded guilty, would he not have to be charged? Therefore, the police must have gathered evident that suggested the driver was guilty, and the CPS proceeded with the prosecution?
If that is the case, then one would have to assume that the police experts and the CPS know what they are doing, and proceeded with a case against the driver, as his action of turning in caused the collision. I would expect that if the accident hadn't been a fatal accident, then the motorcyclist would have been charged for his excessive speed, which would have been a contributing factor, but not the actual cause of the collision.
Nod
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Not watched the video - no interest in seeing anyone filming their own death...
There's a time and place for riding fast and the public highway isn't the place, neither is other traffic on the stretch of road indicative of the time.
As has been said above, the incident was (in all probability) caused by the car driver but the severity of the injuries was more than likely exacerbated by the speed at which the bike was travelling. The legalities and decisions made by the relevant authorities are well beyond my knowledge!
No. In a word! I've had a car pull out on me at a junction in town and when I had a word or 2 with the driver, he blamed my headlight for his decision to pull out, claiming he thought I was flashing my light at him to let him out. If I could, I would have the light on my Triumph switchable rather than on with ignition (another reason being to reduce the draw on the battery when starting up.)
Both cars I drive regularly are significantly faster than either of my bikes.
There's a time and place for riding fast and the public highway isn't the place, neither is other traffic on the stretch of road indicative of the time.
As has been said above, the incident was (in all probability) caused by the car driver but the severity of the injuries was more than likely exacerbated by the speed at which the bike was travelling. The legalities and decisions made by the relevant authorities are well beyond my knowledge!
No. In a word! I've had a car pull out on me at a junction in town and when I had a word or 2 with the driver, he blamed my headlight for his decision to pull out, claiming he thought I was flashing my light at him to let him out. If I could, I would have the light on my Triumph switchable rather than on with ignition (another reason being to reduce the draw on the battery when starting up.)
Both cars I drive regularly are significantly faster than either of my bikes.
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Nikon_Nick
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They'd need to be exceptionally fast to beat a good bike... or maybe he has fast cars
Nikon_Nick
Shirley
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Nope
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No, your right.
Nikon_Nick
Shirley
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Wasnt even a discussion on my part anyway, just an off the cuff remark, but thanks for showing me the error of my ways.
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Must admit, I thought the same as both your posts #136 and #137, but stopped short of posting either myself.
No problems.
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Correct, obviously, but in addition the CPS would only look at is there sufficient evidence to support the charge and is it in the public interest.
The second of those is often debatable, in this case I really don't see that it was. On the first point though evidence to support a charge is not thinking someone is innocent or guilty, thats the job of the court. Evidence to support a charge is simply that.
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I have watched the video a few times and cannot work out where the 7 seconds that people are mentioning comes from. The time between the bike overtaking and the impact is less than that (more like 5 seconds). Clearly the car made a mistake but whether that mistake would have caused a crash if the bike hadn't been speeding is hard to say. Personally when approaching a junction like that in a car or on a bike I cover my brake just in case. I reckon had the biker been at the limit and covering his brake her could have avoided he crash.
Nod
Tootles
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Must have pretty crap bikes then
... or maybe he has fast cars
Mrs Nod's car is restricted to 155 and mine tops out (apparently) at 137. My Royal Enfield runs out of puff at 70 or so and the Triumph Speedmaster (probably) tops out at around 110. Like me, the bikes are built for comfort rather than speed (despite the Trump's model!)
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Byker
No evidence was given in court, only brief facts. These can't be challenged like evidence is.
I think the 7 seconds is based on tests of a police vehicle being stationary at the give way line, and a bike being driven towards it at the same speed. That would be usable as evidence, what the biker may or may not have been able to see doesn't matter much in this case.
No evidence was given in court, only brief facts. These can't be challenged like evidence is.
I think the 7 seconds is based on tests of a police vehicle being stationary at the give way line, and a bike being driven towards it at the same speed. That would be usable as evidence, what the biker may or may not have been able to see doesn't matter much in this case.
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what a disgraceful comment.
Nikon_Nick
Shirley
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Why?
I share the sentiment. It doesnt mean I dont feel sorry for the family of the deceased or for the driver of the car, but its really quite simple.
If you ride like he was riding, there is a very strong possibility you will get yourself killed. He was, and he did.
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Did they replicate the entire thing including other vehicles, or was it just car and bike on the road? The latter is not the same as the former.
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A bit blunt maybe... But not disgraceful.
Without the excess speed (and resultant death) of the bike(r) this would have been just another incident on the roads.
The message should not simply be for car / van / lorry drivers to look out for bikes. It should be for a greater awareness of ALL road users for ALL OTHERS.
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Why?
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You really need to ask???
Your first sentence implies the accident was all the bikers fault. Untrue as has been pointed out.
Why are you so sick of a campaign to reduce accidents and deaths? would you say the same about breast or prostate cancer campaigns?
Regarding your 'think car' idea i agree. Make all car users aware they're not the only motorist on the roads and ALL road users have equal rights! cyclists, motorcycles, tractors, caravans, trucks..etc
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Yes I need to ask.
I never implied anything. The biker was speeding and riding recklessly. That is a fact!
Obviously you are a biker because you seem to think that cars drivers believe they are the only road users and cause all the bike accidents on the road, but more often than not these accidents are caused by bikers, riding like idiots.
Too fast, dark clothing, no headlights and weaving in and out of traffic like THEY own the road.
Now, before you go and say I am IMPLYING that ALL riders are like this, I am not. Some are very sensible, but many are not.
A car is a large bulky vehicle, it can not easily weave in and out of traffic, they can not go as fast as bikes and yet you think it is just car drivers that should "THINK BIKE". Since when do bikers not have to THINK?
I never implied anything. The biker was speeding and riding recklessly. That is a fact!
Obviously you are a biker because you seem to think that cars drivers believe they are the only road users and cause all the bike accidents on the road, but more often than not these accidents are caused by bikers, riding like idiots.
Too fast, dark clothing, no headlights and weaving in and out of traffic like THEY own the road.
Now, before you go and say I am IMPLYING that ALL riders are like this, I am not. Some are very sensible, but many are not.
A car is a large bulky vehicle, it can not easily weave in and out of traffic, they can not go as fast as bikes and yet you think it is just car drivers that should "THINK BIKE". Since when do bikers not have to THINK?
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Nikon_Nick
Shirley
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What the hell have cancer campaigns got to do with anything?!?