I'm a bit mad really.....

[seriousrikk]

Not just you, a generalisation to small minded people who 'hate' (as one said) or 'strongly dislike' all kids. I find that attitude extremely offensive. Would you voice the same opinion about black people, old people, gay people? No I'm bloody sure you wouldn't but to me it's the same level of ignorance.

I'm glad I have proved your point, I'll enjoy the rest of my day now

You are free to think what you like, but hostility and name calling is highly inapproriate don't you think?
Why do you find the fact that people don't like kids offensive? What does it actually mean to you? I genuinely want to understand why you are so hostile and take it so personally.

Since you were referring to me, to clarify: I strongly dislike being around kids in general. It is not something I choose to have and it is not something I can change (And I have tried in the past). I don't have any views either way about kids I've never met but you are quite happy to compare me to a racist and a homophobe.

 

[hepburn]

to clarify: I strongly dislike being around kids in general. It is not something I choose to have

Given the way my kids turned out there's times I wish i'd never had any either!

 

[seriousrikk]

I think what these guys are saying is that they hate being around kids or hate having kids around them - rather than hating the kids themselves.

Thankyou, my above post actually clarifees this

That's quite clearly not what they said. I'm just going on what wassaid.

You sir are trully a classic case. Happy to sling the insults without even clarifying the facts.

 

[BRASH]

You are free to think what you like, but hostility and name calling is highly inapproriate don't you think?
Why do you find the fact that people don't like kids offensive? What does it actually mean to you? I genuinely want to understand why you are so hostile and take it so personally.

Since you were referring to me, to clarify: I strongly dislike being around kids in general. It is not something I choose to have and it is not something I can change (And I have tried in the past). I don't have any views either way about kids I've never met but you are quite happy to compare me to a racist and a homophobe.

I never called you any names. As a father I find your attitude and the other's towards kids offensive. Thats how I feel, so I have said so, I don't have to justify it, it's how it is. As for comparing you to a racist or homophobe, that is my personal feeling and opinion of the level I percieve your attitude to be at.

Now, I have no intention of continuing this debate, I have better things to do than spend my Saturday arguing with some faceless person over the Internet. We'll just have to beg to differ. Hope you have a nice day (no sarcasm meant).

 

[gazedd]

you only have to ask yourself if an occupied hide is the best place to:

1. take a 4 yr old
2. teach photography
3. use a compact camera

A hide is a hide, regardless of whereabouts. Whilst he could have handled the situation differently so could you too. Thumbs up for trying to invoke an interest in the kid, thumbs down for where you chose to do it.

I strongly dis-agree with your comment regarding the thumbs down for his choice.

This "Nature reserve" is for Anyone and everyone - Its free to the public and does not state children are not allowed on the site And/or the hides.

I feel its quite harsh to say "Thumbs down for where you chose to do it" because the kid has to learn somewhere. Its a shame that there are a small proportion of bird-watchers that create the stero-typing of bird watchers to be Moody-loners. And I fell the "Camo Man" was one of these.
Someone who does not want to share the views with others.

IMO, as long as the kid wasn't screaming and was activly asking about the situation he was in then can you blame the child? No.

We all have to start somewhere, And Again, IMO This is not age dependant.

 

[BRASH]

I strongly dis-agree with your comment regarding the thumbs down for his choice.

This "Nature reserve" is for Anyone and everyone - Its free to the public and does not state children are not allowed on the site And/or the hides.

I feel its quite harsh to say "Thumbs down for where you chose to do it" because the kid has to learn somewhere. Its a shame that there are a small proportion of bird-watchers that create the stero-typing of bird watchers to be Moody-loners. And I fell the "Camo Man" was one of these.
Someone who does not want to share the views with others.

IMO, as long as the kid wasn't screaming and was activly asking about the situation he was in then can you blame the child? No.

We all have to start somewhere, And Again, IMO This is not age dependant.

I agree with what you say and the stereotyping of bird watchers. Look at my Avatar and Signature to see what I am. I have been a member of the RSPB for over a decade. Skinhead twitcher:shrug::shrug::shrug: Stereotype that one

 

[gazedd]

LOL @ Brash, No I dont think anyone could streo-type you

 

[welly]

And that is where people like us fall foul. We can understand why parents feel the way they do and make allowances. Parents just think we are weird for having such a strong dislike of kids and make no allowances in return. The hostility I have recieved from some folk because of the way I feel is staggering.

I'm with you. I don't like being around kids. I hated being around myself when I was a kid! I wouldn't tell friends who have kids my feelings on the subject and I'll grin and bear it but I'd rather not be around kids if I can help it! I certainly have no plans to have any of my own. There's too many people in the world as it is without little Wellys running around getting in the way.

 

[Daysleeper40]

BB, I'm sure your child was not behaving badly, or unexpectedly.

But I question your judgement in taking him there in the first place. It's a bird watching hide, where you watch birds, in silence because they are easily scared by sudden noise, usually with binoculars and/or long lens and camera. Not a Sony compact.

If you want to teach him photography (unlikely at that age, but it's your choice) let him take pictures of his friends. If you want to teach him ornithology, look in the garden. Don't take him to an old quarry full of water and no birds! I tried both subjects with my two kids, but neither of them took the remotest interest until they were teenagers.

Familiar and regular noise like trains does not usually scare birds.

No, it wasn't me - I don't have a 5D.

I'm with Hoppy - it's great that you want to encourage an interest in photography but a different setting would have been more appropriate imo.

I do often think that parents want it their own way. I have no strong feelings one way or the other about kids but what irritates me is the assumption that I should have to make allowances for kids without finding them a)annoying or b) expecting the parents to use a bit of judgement or having some control over them.

The other photographer only asked politely if you could keep it down - whats wrong with that? If the answer is "no we can't - he is four and doesn't have that much self control" then maybe you should be thinking of showing the other tog some courtesy by moving to a different location instead of swearing at him and assuming that he should be the one to take a walk.

 

[gazedd]

Again, I have to point out that this particualr Nature reserve is for ANYONE AND EVERYONE. It does not state that children are not allowed.

Yes the general concensus (spelling) is that you should be quiet in hides.
But, If BB wants to teach his child photography, Why shouldnt the subject be birds/landscapes.

Should he take him on the the streets of town and photograph everyones shins?
Should he take him to a Circuit and let him take pictures of the fence?

The kid is limited to what he can shoot because of physical height restraints, and a Bird hide has a bench that he can comfertubly lean on or stand on.

I'm not a parent, But I do support BB in this case. HE and his CHILD are not at fault here.

 

[nilagin]

See I dont mind kids at Oulton Park running around me etc when I am taking shots as they have every right to be there as me. I do however, get annoyed when they are climbing all over the safety fencing. Not becuase they are doing it (kids will be kids) but becuase the parents dont do anything!!!!!!

I do that, you can get some good shots that way.
Mind you when my eldest was alot younger, I took him and his mate to a BTCC test session at Brands Hatch and they started throwing small stones over the fence onto the track. I went bollistic. They stopped immediately and sanity resumed.
Apart from that one time, my sons were and still are quite respectful of others and know how to behave in public.

 

[welly]

Again, I have to point out that this particualr Nature reserve is for ANYONE AND EVERYONE. It does not state that children are not allowed.

I doubt that the nature reserve states that brass bands are not allowed either!

 

[hepburn]

Again, I have to point out that this particualr Nature reserve is for ANYONE AND EVERYONE. It does not state that children are not allowed.

Nor is it an excuse for annoying behavior, from children or adults...

 

[gazedd]

I doubt that the nature reserve states that brass bands are not allowed either!

And that means they are allowed to go then...

 

[jerry12953]

BB, I'm sure your child was not behaving badly, or unexpectedly.

But I question your judgement in taking him there in the first place. It's a bird watching hide, where you watch birds, in silence because they are easily scared by sudden noise, usually with binoculars and/or long lens and camera. Not a Sony compact.

If you want to teach him photography (unlikely at that age, but it's your choice) let him take pictures of his friends. If you want to teach him ornithology, look in the garden. Don't take him to an old quarry full of water and no birds! I tried both subjects with my two kids, but neither of them took the remotest interest until they were teenagers.

Familiar and regular noise like trains does not usually scare birds.

No, it wasn't me - I don't have a 5D.

I'm a birder too, and if I was sitting in a hide birding, I wouldn't appreciate a small child in there as well, no matter how well-behaved! It's nothing personal, and for the guy in the hide it wasn't personal thing either. A four year old probably just wouldn't understand what he should and shouldn't do in a bird-hide. It's just one of those things!

 

[purpleclouds]

I strongly dis-agree with your comment regarding the thumbs down for his choice.

This "Nature reserve" is for Anyone and everyone - Its free to the public and does not state children are not allowed on the site And/or the hides.

I feel its quite harsh to say "Thumbs down for where you chose to do it" because the kid has to learn somewhere. Its a shame that there are a small proportion of bird-watchers that create the stero-typing of bird watchers to be Moody-loners. And I fell the "Camo Man" was one of these.
Someone who does not want to share the views with others.

IMO, as long as the kid wasn't screaming and was activly asking about the situation he was in then can you blame the child? No.

We all have to start somewhere, And Again, IMO This is not age dependant.

My local hide, which attracts mainly the woodland birds, does just that. When I am there on my own, I often have a little bit of music playing quietly from my phone (yes...chav style...and no, I don't have it on on trains ) and the birds still land on my perches 5ft away! If someone else does come along then I naturally turn it off, just to avoid any confrontation, but a lot of the people I know and see there regularly know that the birds still come regardless. We can be having a lively conversation and I'll still be snapping away as they will still be there.

Whether this is something that those birds have become accustomed to or what, or I don't know...but I've never had any problems nattering away at other hides! In the public hide at Leighton Moss for example, the bittern was flying to and fro 30ft in front of a group of elderly ladies all getting excited after I told them what it was.

It is unfortunate that such ignorant people use hides, and having multiple bodies and camo gear in a hide does seem a little 'snobbish' or elitist? Quite right, if he wants to capture the best photos he can, surely he would be somewhere totally devoid of other human life...in a bush! I think it is just something engraved on their mentality that hides should be as quiet as libraries.

 

[OutLore]

I'm a birder too, and if I was sitting in a hide birding, I wouldn't appreciate a small child in there as well, no matter how well-behaved! It's nothing personal, and for the guy in the hide it wasn't personal thing either. A four year old probably just wouldn't understand what he should and shouldn't do in a bird-hide. It's just one of those things!

So if someone comes in, and asks you to stop taking pictures because the noise it makes annoys them, would you?

These are PUBLIC places. I use the hides in and around Lea Valley and have done since I was 7, and have been a member of the RSPB since then too, and use their sites and hides too.

Now, I can understand if someone took a 3month old which was screaming it's head off, but this was a child, probably asking questions... I've been in hides where the "birders" were quite happily having a conversation with each other at normal talking voice levels, and crashing and bashing their stuff around. I've also been in them and got glares just for opening the door slowly- like I should have known they were in there and not gone in!

 

[Tazmaniandevil]

A four year old probably just wouldn't understand what he should and shouldn't do in a bird-hide. It's just one of those things!

And how would he learn this behaviour?
Children learn mainly by watching the behaviour of others and asking questions.

I'm the first to sound of about other people's ill-mannered and badly behaved brats BTW. I wasn't in the hide so can't make a judgement on how well or otherwise behaved the boy was. Would it not have been a better and more civilised reaction for the twitcher to interact with the child rather than simply moaning at the parent?

 

[knocker]

By saying you hate ALL kids is just plain ignorant. That means, by definition you hate my daughter, who you have never even met. If you were to say that to my face without any good reason other than "Oh, I hate all kids" yer damn right you'de get a hostile reaction and I'll guarantee you'd think twice about saying it again. If kids are not for you fair enough but you cannot justify saying you hate them all. Get with the programme

obviously brash is having a go at me, if you read the post mate, i said "i hate kids" which i do (i'm not in the habit of lying) i also said i keep out of the way of them rather than cause any problems with parents, which i do. your response is indicative of a typical blinkered "my kids are angels" parent....threats and possible violence, quite why you have taken "i hate kids" in the literal sense i don't know but there is no need to over react !

your reply to richardthesane

As for comparing you to a racist or homophobe, that is my personal feeling

so you can have personal feelings about things and post them but nobody else can ?

ps, i don't have to justify anything i say to anyone either

now wheres this program i have to get with

 

[HoppyUK]

I'm not sure the OP wanted a lesson in parenting when he posted this, but there is a valuable learning opportunity for both him and the child, who was apparently behaving quite like any decent four year old and is entirely blameless in this.

Resturants do not state that children aren't allowed, but the OP says he expects his child to behave in a certain way there. Different standards of behaviour are required in all sorts of places - it's different in the playground, in bird hides, in the classroom, and most certainly when dad wants to watch the match on TV, or mum wants to watch Eastenders undisturbed

And we should remember that we were all four years old once, many of us are or have been parents to young children and should see both sides, and if kids do not grow up as well-rounded and productive individuals with good and varied life experiences, then who is going to pay our pensions?

 

[BRASH]

obviously brash is having a go at me, if you read the post mate, i said "i hate kids" which i do (i'm not in the habit of lying) i also said i keep out of the way of them rather than cause any problems with parents, which i do. your response is indicative of a typical blinkered "my kids are angels" parent....threats and possible violence, quite why you have taken "i hate kids" in the literal sense i don't know but there is no need to over react !

your reply to richardthesane



so you can have personal feelings about things and post them but nobody else can ?

ps, i don't have to justify anything i say to anyone either

now wheres this program i have to get with

Yadda, yadda

 

[Borats Baby]

OOOOooooo, I have opened a can of worms havn't I...

So many points to make, so little time.

Main points:

It is a public hide and not a very busy one at that, by that I mean subjects rather than togs/watchers etc.

The camo guy had 3 bodies and 2 BIG lenses, he looked like he was ready for a week in the forests rather than an afternoon at the local hide. The length of the lenses must have meant that he was shooting stuff far away, and I honestly have to say, I dont think the volume of chat would have had any consequence at all.

Yes, he had a compact camera and prolly wouldn't have shot anything worthwhile, but he has to start somewhere, I had my 400D and siggy 70-300 with me and would have liked to have been able show him how to find something in the viewfinder. A start I think.

I wouldn't have actually told him to F off, that was just me being a bit irate yesterday.

gotta go now, kids are pestering me, back in a bit......

 

[BigDex]

 

[jerry12953]

And how would he learn this behaviour?
Children learn mainly by watching the behaviour of others and asking questions.

I'm the first to sound of about other people's ill-mannered and badly behaved brats BTW. I wasn't in the hide so can't make a judgement on how well or otherwise behaved the boy was. Would it not have been a better and more civilised reaction for the twitcher to interact with the child rather than simply moaning at the parent?

It sounds like the guy with the cameras made a polite request to the OP for his child to keep quiet. Without having been there, it sounds like both behaved pretty well actually.

I wonder whether a four year old really can grasp the idea of peering through a slot in the wall of a shed at an object sitting on the water a hundred yards away? Not having kids myself I can't answer that one. But maybe that kind of introduction to bird photography might have been better done without anyone else in the hide?

 

[Borats Baby]

The camo guy's words were polite, but it was the addition of a sigh before speaking and pointing at my lad as if I didnt know who he was talking about

I could tell he was really quite irrate, but my point is I dont think he had any right to be.

He said voices would startle birds, but I really dont think any of the birds were that bothered at all. There was a Heron about 50 yards away that went about its business and we all know how shy they are.

I just came away from the hide thinking, Who does he think he is ? Like it was HIS hide.

Thats my beef, nothing more.

I pride myself on the fact that my boys are very well behaved when we're out of the house, they are ********s at home and drive me up the wall, but whenever I take them out anywhere, they are always very good. And I'm happy with that. They dont have X-boxes or nintendos or even TVs in their rooms - and wont have until they can afford to buy their own. I simply dont believe in kids having them until they are over a certain age. Instead we opt for going out on our bikes, with our cameras and trying to learn about the big wide world.

My kids love it, and I love it, and I wont change it for anything, I'll go back to Moore nature reserve a lot during the summer months, and if camo gear man is there, well, he'll have to put up with a few voices for 20 mins or so...

 

[Suvv]

Noise in hides does not bother me, at most RSPB reserves it is mostly quiet and then a warden comes in with a group, the noise level goes up and the birds carry on regardless.
When there are young kids in the hide I normally let them look through my scope and talk about what they have seen. Without the next generations going to reserves they will all disappear. Us birders are already a captured audience we need the youngsters to get interested.
So put it behind you, carry on going and when you next enter a hide just ask someone if there is anything interesting about, then ask for a few identifications, most people will be willing to talk about the birds and will include kids in the conversation.

 

[OutLore]

Us birders are already a captured audience we need the youngsters to get interested.
So put it behind you, carry on going and when you next enter a hide just ask someone if there is anything interesting about, then ask for a few identifications, most people will be willing to talk about the birds and will include kids in the conversation.