Beginner Image license

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13
Name
Barry Betts
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Hi,

I am desperately trying to figure out if I need to have a license to use when offering sports images to local newspapers. Whether paid or not I assume I need to provide an editorial non-exclusive use license? If so, does anyone have A) any tips or advice and B) happen to have a template source I can follow?

I'm trying to think of and plan for every eventually before starting to actually contact people so that I am well prepared and dont end up with egg on my face!
 
Messages
520
Name
David
Edit My Images
No
I am sure one of our professional photographers will advise.

I had taken Photos at a Tough Mudder event and, as an amateur, I could photograph from almost everywhere except the ice bath (press only) where the competitors have to fully submerge in icy water. My friend contacted a local newspaper and enquired as to whether they would like some photos of the event. They did and sent him a headed letter requesting certain types of pictures with names and town. I joked with him the following year that he might see if his assistant can be sponsored as well. A few days before the event I received an email from my friend with an attached letter from the Newspaper requesting more photos of the event. I arrive at the even shortly after my friend who had already entered; we had both purchased tickets on-line. My friend greeted me in his Hi Vis Press jacket and directed me to take my letter to the press tent. I did so and they issued me with a press jacket and offered to refund my admission fee. I refused the latter as I was happy to pay. I got some superb shots at the ice bath and later was chatting to my friend thanking him for arranging this with the Newspaper. He then confessed that the letter he forwarded to me was fake but he had not told me in advance because, as I believed it was real, so did the press tent. My friend was actually sponsored by the Newspaper himself but had to keep going off and asking for names etc. of those he photographed. Also many of the images he took were of groups raising funds for Charity. This was what the Newspaper wanted but it meant my friend did not have time to capture the amazing images I did. It just emphasised that if it your job, it is quite different to a hobby.

Dave
 
OP
Barrybarfly
Messages
13
Name
Barry Betts
Edit My Images
No
Yes I'm very much trying to seperate work from hobby with my photography, my hobby is birds/animals and a bit of sport. But much sport access requires accreditation so there's a nice seperation of the two if I make it that far. But just enough overlap to keep the work interesting!

Well, that's the theory anyway.
 
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3,429
Name
Steve
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@ Dave Canon: I used to love shooting Tough Mudder events but boy did I pay for it the day after - aches and pains in places I didn't know existed. 16/17 hours of shooting over the two days of the evens and about 18-20 thousand images were begining to take a toll so I decided to give it up. I don't onow who takes the photos these days but it used to be organised by an American outfit called Gameface and it was a ice little earner - $50/hr plus expenses. Their UK contractor was Epic Action Imagery who were nice guys to work with.

My favourite obstacles to photo was Hang Tough and the Ice Bath, but the latter was a very cold and wet environment and we were only allowed to do that for half a day per event. The reason they didn't let the public shoot there was purely down to insurance - you needed to be aware all the time as there was a constant risk of slipping or tripping and both you and your gear were definately gonna get wet :)
 

KIPAX

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20,910
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KIPAX
Edit My Images
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I am desperately trying to figure out if I need to have a license to use when offering sports images to local newspapers. Whether paid or not I assume I need to provide an editorial non-exclusive use license? If so, does anyone have A) any tips or advice and B) happen to have a template source I can follow?

I'm trying to think of and plan for every eventually before starting to actually contact people so that I am well prepared and dont end up with egg on my face!

OK first off.. just talking about offering free pictures to papers puts egg on your face.. actually giving them will get you nothing but grief and enemies as thats exactly whats killing the industry...

Do you know how to populate the IPTC fields in your pictures? If not then thats the first thing you need to learn before selling pics to papers.. you can then put all your details in there... I add a line "NO SYNDICATION" to stop them selling/providing other newspapers with my pics... other than that.. they pay for the pic and can use it as much as they like...
 
Messages
9,474
Name
Andrew Cliffe
Edit My Images
Yes
@ Dave Canon: I used to love shooting Tough Mudder events but boy did I pay for it the day after - aches and pains in places I didn't know existed. 16/17 hours of shooting over the two days of the evens and about 18-20 thousand images were begining to take a toll so I decided to give it up. I don't onow who takes the photos these days but it used to be organised by an American outfit called Gameface and it was a ice little earner - $50/hr plus expenses. Their UK contractor was Epic Action Imagery who were nice guys to work with.

My favourite obstacles to photo was Hang Tough and the Ice Bath, but the latter was a very cold and wet environment and we were only allowed to do that for half a day per event. The reason they didn't let the public shoot there was purely down to insurance - you needed to be aware all the time as there was a constant risk of slipping or tripping and both you and your gear were definately gonna get wet :)
I've shot many an event for Epic Action, they're great guys. Gameface less so - the money was good when they were paying, but I was waiting a year for my money in the end, and ending up making a settlement for 80% of outstanding monies. Others who refused to settle are still waiting for their money. Would never shoot for Gameface again.
 
Last edited:
Messages
9,474
Name
Andrew Cliffe
Edit My Images
Yes
I am sure one of our professional photographers will advise.

I had taken Photos at a Tough Mudder event and, as an amateur, I could photograph from almost everywhere except the ice bath (press only) where the competitors have to fully submerge in icy water. My friend contacted a local newspaper and enquired as to whether they would like some photos of the event. They did and sent him a headed letter requesting certain types of pictures with names and town. I joked with him the following year that he might see if his assistant can be sponsored as well. A few days before the event I received an email from my friend with an attached letter from the Newspaper requesting more photos of the event. I arrive at the even shortly after my friend who had already entered; we had both purchased tickets on-line. My friend greeted me in his Hi Vis Press jacket and directed me to take my letter to the press tent. I did so and they issued me with a press jacket and offered to refund my admission fee. I refused the latter as I was happy to pay. I got some superb shots at the ice bath and later was chatting to my friend thanking him for arranging this with the Newspaper. He then confessed that the letter he forwarded to me was fake but he had not told me in advance because, as I believed it was real, so did the press tent. My friend was actually sponsored by the Newspaper himself but had to keep going off and asking for names etc. of those he photographed. Also many of the images he took were of groups raising funds for Charity. This was what the Newspaper wanted but it meant my friend did not have time to capture the amazing images I did. It just emphasised that if it your job, it is quite different to a hobby.

Dave
Generally not a good idea to forge press credentials. It would come back to haunt you and could end up blacklisted for various events.
 
Messages
9,474
Name
Andrew Cliffe
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi,

I am desperately trying to figure out if I need to have a license to use when offering sports images to local newspapers. Whether paid or not I assume I need to provide an editorial non-exclusive use license? If so, does anyone have A) any tips or advice and B) happen to have a template source I can follow?

I'm trying to think of and plan for every eventually before starting to actually contact people so that I am well prepared and dont end up with egg on my face!
I wouldn't advise an exclusive license. Whilst they plead poverty, they usually have set rates depending on size and placement. I'd agree over the non-syndication aspect.
 
Messages
520
Name
David
Edit My Images
No
Generally not a good idea to forge press credentials. It would come back to haunt you and could end up blacklisted for various events.
I would agree but I did not forge any document and believed the letter sent to me was genuine.

I was given full access to photographing the horse racing event near me but it was primarily to photograph people attending but we were not allowed in the press area which would have been the way to obtain good images of the racing itself. I asked about this and were told that we could be given access but only for a minor meeting which would have been fine. Unfortunately the contact moved away from the area before we had a go. On another occasion, I noticed that there was to be an international rugby match at my local ground (England Wales under 18). Even so they were big lads and the game was very much a professional standard. When I arrived carrying my kit, I was waved into the main entrance and into the press area without any questions. I got some reasonable shots but kept out of the way of the genuine press guys. My images are for my own use only so not taking a living from anyone else.

Dave
 
Messages
3,429
Name
Steve
Edit My Images
Yes
I've shot many an event for Epic Action, they're great guys. Gameface less so - the money was good when they were paying, but I was waiting a year for my money in the end, and ending up making a settlement for 80% of outstanding monies. Others who refused to settle are still waiting for their money. Would never shoot for Gameface again.
Hi Andrew, now you mention it I remember hearing that Gameface had reneged on some contracts here in the UK.

I'm retiring from my full time job at the end of March and was thinking about offering my services to Epic Action again. it would be a good way of earning some beer money :)
 
OP
Barrybarfly
Messages
13
Name
Barry Betts
Edit My Images
No
OK first off.. just talking about offering free pictures to papers puts egg on your face.. actually giving them will get you nothing but grief and enemies as thats exactly whats killing the industry...

Do you know how to populate the IPTC fields in your pictures? If not then thats the first thing you need to learn before selling pics to papers.. you can then put all your details in there... I add a line "NO SYNDICATION" to stop them selling/providing other newspapers with my pics... other than that.. they pay for the pic and can use it as much as they like...
I was advised against this yesterday too so free images won't be happening.

I'll start looking into the IPTC fields post haste!

I'm a way off approaching papers which is exactly why I'm asking for you all to advise. Id rather get egg on my face by asking the question than by getting a black mark against my name within the industry on my first day! So thanks to everyone offering me advice.
 
Messages
9,474
Name
Andrew Cliffe
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi Andrew, now you mention it I remember hearing that Gameface had reneged on some contracts here in the UK.

I'm retiring from my full time job at the end of March and was thinking about offering my services to Epic Action again. it would be a good way of earning some beer money :)
Yes. big time, worldwide too.

Several big US companies had negotiated credit terms, not 30 days credit but longer - 60/90 days. Meanwhile they were obliged to pay their photographers promptly and there was a financial shortfall, so they were robbing Peter to pay Paul. The whole thing was built on a house of cards which collapsed. Lots of photographers all over world lost out. At the peak I was owed £ 1k and accepted £ 800. Others who held out for the 100% were offered 3 stage payments. Payment one arrived. Payment two was late. Payment three never showed up. Other friends were owned significanlty more.

I went to shoot a Tough Mudder event in Germany. One third of the team was from the UK, and the rest of the team was local Germans. The Germans went on strike as they hadn't been paid for the previous event, so we had to do a whole event with a third of the normal number of photographers. That was fun...

Gameface lost contracts left, right and centre. Tough Mudder went to another company who made a balls up of it, not sure who has it now.

Gameface are now in cahoots with MarathonFoto.

There is also Marathon-Photos, these were good guys to work for as well. Sussex Sports Photography also.
 
Last edited:
Messages
9,474
Name
Andrew Cliffe
Edit My Images
Yes
I would agree but I did not forge any document and believed the letter sent to me was genuine.

I was given full access to photographing the horse racing event near me but it was primarily to photograph people attending but we were not allowed in the press area which would have been the way to obtain good images of the racing itself. I asked about this and were told that we could be given access but only for a minor meeting which would have been fine. Unfortunately the contact moved away from the area before we had a go. On another occasion, I noticed that there was to be an international rugby match at my local ground (England Wales under 18). Even so they were big lads and the game was very much a professional standard. When I arrived carrying my kit, I was waved into the main entrance and into the press area without any questions. I got some reasonable shots but kept out of the way of the genuine press guys. My images are for my own use only so not taking a living from anyone else.

Dave
Aprreciate that you were partially deceived by your friend and the letter provided.

Tough Mudder and their ilk were great events to shoot. I would generally be there for both days, and we would be assigned an obstacle for the day, sometimes alone, sometimes with a second photographer. Instruction was to try and get two shots of everyone, although that was often impossible. The competitors were always up for a laugh and would do posed shots / group shots.
 

KIPAX

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KIPAX
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There is also Marathon-Photos, these were good guys to work for as well. Sussex Sports Photography also.

Pre covid I was doing 2 maybe 3 a year for "BaddAssMucker" a smaller evnt held up north :) I got paid per event and pics given away to contestants.. Realy enjoyed them.. 4-6 hrs so not a long day .. hopefully there all back soon but cant se eit this year.. maybe 2022
 
Messages
9,474
Name
Andrew Cliffe
Edit My Images
Yes
Pre covid I was doing 2 maybe 3 a year for "BaddAssMucker" a smaller evnt held up north :) I got paid per event and pics given away to contestants.. Realy enjoyed them.. 4-6 hrs so not a long day .. hopefully there all back soon but cant se eit this year.. maybe 2022
A lot of these events had gone over to the free photos model - photos are provided as part of the entry fee. Means noone has to worry about the sales side of things.
 
Messages
520
Name
David
Edit My Images
No
As far as I can tell my local Newspaper no longer appears to employ professional photographers but seem to use a network of local amateurs some of which produce awful images. They used to regularly feature images from my club for which they paid but no longer do so.

Re: photographing Tough Mudder, it was a long day but I was not tied down so could drift from one obstacle to another. I found that the Marshalls were very helpful in allowing you to get into a good position to get shots without getting in the way or endangering yourself or equipment. One day I hope to have another go particularly now I have some lighter kit. Motocross is a sports event which is easy to access and take stunning photographs.

Dave
 

KIPAX

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KIPAX
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As far as I can tell my local Newspaper no longer appears to employ professional photographers
Whats your local paper?

Motocross is a sports event which is easy to access and
I have done a few and found them to be quite strict.. had to fill out forms saying what i can/cant do with pics..
 
Messages
520
Name
David
Edit My Images
No
My local Newspaper is the Gloucestershire Echo; used to be daily but now published once a week. When it was daily, it was a Newspaper and could report local news soon after or even on the same day. It is now more like a weekly magazine so I suspect they may no longer employ reporters let alone photographers. They fill it with articles about local history thus using their own picture archive. For local events, they rely on a network of people sending in articles and photos. It is then bulked up with adverts, births and deaths, reports of the local MP and local sport. So why do we bother? I would cancel immediately but my wife want to keep tabs on births and deaths.

Dave
 

KIPAX

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20,910
Name
KIPAX
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My local Newspaper is the Gloucestershire Echo; used to be daily but now published once a week. When it was daily,

Yep the way a lot of papers go.. not long ago I had a picture editor and the paper employed a few photogrpahers... editor went then every few mths another photographer went until we all went (I was on a retainer not full time and the last to go during covid) papers gone downhill using stock and google maps for most stories.. also the camera club they started for free pics as well as whatever anyone sends in for free .. .... currently 6 days a week.. i get the odd thing off them but like once a blue moon... next stop will be weekly like yours... they all go the same way :(
 
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Barrybarfly
Messages
13
Name
Barry Betts
Edit My Images
No
Yep the way a lot of papers go.. not long ago I had a picture editor and the paper employed a few photogrpahers... editor went then every few mths another photographer went until we all went (I was on a retainer not full time and the last to go during covid) papers gone downhill using stock and google maps for most stories.. also the camera club they started for free pics as well as whatever anyone sends in for free .. .... currently 6 days a week.. i get the odd thing off them but like once a blue moon... next stop will be weekly like yours... they all go the same way :(
Mine has a Facebook group where they take a "pic of the week" from quite often. Now I'm wondering how many others are quietly snuck into the paper too. It's a free paper in a lot of areas but not all.
 
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1,338
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Yep the way a lot of papers go.. not long ago I had a picture editor and the paper employed a few photogrpahers... editor went then every few mths another photographer went until we all went (I was on a retainer not full time and the last to go during covid) papers gone downhill using stock and google maps for most stories.. also the camera club they started for free pics as well as whatever anyone sends in for free .. .... currently 6 days a week.. i get the odd thing off them but like once a blue moon... next stop will be weekly like yours... they all go the same way :(
Johnston Press released most of their in house professional photographers about 5 years ago. They asked them all to go freelance.
 
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