Images on older cameras on Flicker better than newer ones?

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As I was browsing images from Sony cameras I came across some surprisingly good ones from the Sony DSC H1, 2 and 3 ranges. Checked the cameras out and decided I'd buy a H9 for £40 based on the images I was seeing (have a look yourselves) some really stunning ones from a 20 year old (compact) camera.

I then decided to see what the evolution of this range was in case I like it and fancy upgrading. So had a look at the HX400V which came out 10 years later. The images are nowhere near as good

To be clear, I don't mean from a pixel peeping point of view I mean from a composition and choice of subject. If you have a look you'll see what I mean

I guess the question is, as camera's have evolved have we been subjected to more dross being posted - quantity over quality, or have more people bought cameras who wouldn't normally have bought them as they don't have the photography bug, but just fancy a shiny new toy

Would be interested in your thoughts
 
I think 95% of photographers 20 years ago where great photographers whereas now 95% are bad ......never thought about why but I suppose photography is much easier to get into now and I've noticed in the industry there's never been a stage more than right now where it's trendy , hipster , arty, call it what you will, to be a photographer.
 
Have you considered that it may be you who have changed. Are you now more critical, your tastes more [or less] refined with the passing of time, or are you perhaps living in a miasma of nostalgia wherein things these days just don't seem to be as good? Just a thought :exit:
 
As I was browsing images from Sony cameras I came across some surprisingly good ones from the Sony DSC H1, 2 and 3 ranges. Checked the cameras out and decided I'd buy a H9 for £40 based on the images I was seeing (have a look yourselves) some really stunning ones from a 20 year old (compact) camera.

I then decided to see what the evolution of this range was in case I like it and fancy upgrading. So had a look at the HX400V which came out 10 years later. The images are nowhere near as good

To be clear, I don't mean from a pixel peeping point of view I mean from a composition and choice of subject. If you have a look you'll see what I mean

I guess the question is, as camera's have evolved have we been subjected to more dross being posted - quantity over quality, or have more people bought cameras who wouldn't normally have bought them as they don't have the photography bug, but just fancy a shiny new toy

Would be interested in your thoughts

The camera doesn't pick the subject and compose. Newer cameras can produce much, much nicer/better/etc images than older cameras of the same level.

It's probably because you just happened to pick a group to look at which had a number of below par images.

A lot of photographers stick the contrast, dehaze and saturation sliders to the right and the general (Facebook type) people absolutely love it. Especially in the night sky and landscape genres. So they do it even more for the likes and popularity.....
 
I agree it is the photographer and not the camera. Also shows what you can do with cheap gear and a good eye

I guess what I’m saying is that selectively seems to be missing as time goes by
 
You're seeing the difference between photographers, not cameras.
Agreed. 20 years ago takes us to about the point at which digital cameras were becoming more capable and could just about beat the quality of 35mm film - but nearly all photographers had learned their skills on film, had a "measure twice and cut once" attitude and were much better photographers as a result.
 
My son and his girlfriend are going through a low fi digital thing at the moment, having done Instax the 6 to 8 mega pixel compact camera seems to be the 2020's version of Lomographics.
Which is fine by me, the important thing is that they are enjoying the results of thinking about photography and image making not just snapping away on their phones.
 
Agreed. 20 years ago takes us to about the point at which digital cameras were becoming more capable and could just about beat the quality of 35mm film - but nearly all photographers had learned their skills on film, had a "measure twice and cut once" attitude and were much better photographers as a result.
:agree: well said Garry. I think the modern day P&S is exactly that and weilded by folks who just want a snapshot (in general) whereas 20 years ago photography enthusiasts were looking at digital seriously but would use the compact as if it were a film camera therefore taking just as much care over subject, composition and light as they always did.
 
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...whereas 20 years ago photography enthusiasts were looking at digital seriously but would use the compact as if it were a film camera therefore taking just as much care over subject, composition and light as they always did.
I have no proof but a strong suspicion, that such a statement applies to a very, very small number of people who might be called enthusiasts. Looking at the magazines and books of the period, there was still a "photojournalistic vibe" in the majority of publications aimed at photographers, both amateur and working.

Now, more photographers are in touch with one another, through this and other sites, than ever before. I think this is a good thing for us all, to see what others are doing and learn how they're doing it.
 
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I recently rebought another version of my very first PAS digital camera for £20 SH.

When I first bought it, it was £550.

I guess, that photography was still an expensive hobby back then. As cameras got better and cheaper, more people got them. The more people that do anything, the worse the overall standard is. I'm not saying that just because you spend more on a camera, you'll be better. But maybe to want to spend that much on a camera, you might WANT to be better. There is a massive caveat here of course in that some people just want expensive, shiny things to impress people. It's more about having the expensive camera than being judged on your photos.

In the right hands, ANY camera is capable of producing great* images. Sometimes inspite of their limitations and sometimes because of them.

*By great, I mean interesting. Maybe they won't be mega-sharp, but they will be well composed and worthy of looking at.

There is some stunning iPhone photography for example. But there is a hell of a lot more dross.

I still maintain that the cheaper you make something, the less value it has and therefore the less people care. My daughter probably takes more photos of herself in a day than I have of me throughout my entire childhood. But I doubt she'll have as many of those by the time she gets to my as no one keeps anything. They have no value to them because they're free. Imagine the youth of today having to spend £7 before being able to take 24 shots - then another £7 to see them. you can be sure there'd be a lot less 'imagery' in the world.

The same thing happened to music with the advent of the original streaming/download services like Napster. When I was a kid I could only afford a new LP every other month or so. So the music I did have I played to death. You considered it more. you went to a store to listen to it before committing to buying. Kids today will not listen to a full song from start to finish.

We had to implement a rule in our car when my daughter wanted to 'take charge' of the music that she was only allowed to skip 3 songs before she had to give up control.

Otherwise we'd only ever hear 20 seconds of something before it got switched.
 
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The same thing happened to music with the advent of the original streaming/download services like Napster. When I was a kid I could only afford a new LP every other month or so. So the music I did have I played to death. You considered it more. you went to a store to listen to it before committing to buying. Kids today will not listen to a full song from start to finish.

On the flip side, my 15 year old reported the other day that in 2022 she listened to Sam Fender's album Seventeen Going Under on Apple Music over 530 times
 
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On the flip side, my 15 year old reported the other day that in 2022 she listened to Sam Fender's album Seventeen Going Under on Apple Music over 530 times

My statistical mind had to investigate this: not including bonus tracks, 530 listens would equate to roughly 400 hours, so over once a day for a complete year. I don't know whether to be impressed or call into question her taste in music! :)
 
My statistical mind had to investigate this: not including bonus tracks, 530 listens would equate to roughly 400 hours, so over once a day for a complete year. I don't know whether to be impressed or call into question her taste in music! :)

That's at the top of the chart, but I'm told there's several other albums that have racked up over 300 plays in the year.

Her headphones are practically a permanent fixture on her head. :)

On the single songs front, Waterloo Sunset by the Kinks is up at well over 500 plays. I certainly can't complain about that :D
 
I still maintain that the cheaper you make something, the less value it has and therefore the less people care. My daughter probably takes more photos of herself in a day than I have of me throughout my entire childhood. But I doubt she'll have as many of those by the time she gets to my as no one keeps anything. They have no value to them because they're free. Imagine the youth of today having to spend £7 before being able to take 24 shots - then another £7 to see them. you can be sure there'd be a lot less 'imagery' in the world.
Not all, as I mentioned in a previous reply there are plenty of teens to mid twenties using Instax and Holga / Lomo, one of Nicholas' friends has a liking for £30 plus rolls of hipster 35mm film in various non descriptive brand names.
 
I guess the question is, as camera's have evolved have we been subjected to more dross being posted - quantity over quality, or have more people bought cameras who wouldn't normally have bought them as they don't have the photography bug, but just fancy a shiny new toy

Would be interested in your thoughts

No idea but I'd guess it depends where you/we look. I'd expect to see a lot of good pictures on a photography forum but maybe less so on other interest sites and social media.

As time moves on and newer gear comes out I do expect to see better pictures, maybe not more interesting pictures, but better ones because the kit is better and it makes taking technically good pictures easier. For example with my old Kodak Instamatic skies were very often blown but these days that doesn't happen anywhere near as much.
 
You have to put more effort into light levels on some older cameras. It is really easy to blow highlights or end up with too dark pictures. That slows people down.

Some early cameras have more non-linear sensors compared to more modern cameras to.
 
If you go back 20 years you were just before the real take-off of digital.
Most early adopters were skilled photographers willing to try out the new thing.
But assume a background in film with all it's limitations -36 per roll, cost, fixed ISO etc.
So they thought about what they were taking and could handle the limitations.
As for mobile phones, Nokia was dominant and cameras in phones werre rare.
 
We've got two major changes between the last days of the dominance of film and today's ubiquitous digital photography - certainly on the "domestic" front rather than the pro/enthusiast front. Firstly, film was (is) a lot more expensive and slower to create photos (by slower I mean you don't get the picture immediately - you need to finish the roll of film, get it processed etc.) and secondly, the way photos are viewed and shared.

Photography was harder then - not to get a decent picture but to get a picture at all: more effort, more money, more waiting days or weeks to see the result. Most people didn't carry a camera everywhere they went because of the sheer hassle and the inconvenience/expense of actually making photos out of it but now, just about everyone has a camera on them everywhere they go (even the bathroom - as evidenced via soc. media selfies).

And if the film ever got developed and printed (I'm sure that many rolls got half used and then left in the camera for months only to be removed and the camera reloaded for the next holiday or special occasion), then the photos were usually put in a box to be gotten out on rare occasions - or special photos were framed and displayed in the home.

Nowadays, anyone under the age of about 25 has been practically brought up in an age where everyone carries a camera everywhere and always - and photos can be immediately uploaded to social media or electronically posted for literally millions of people to see (even if only a handful of people see them) - and all this for next to nothing in running/production costs to the individual.

I'm sure that there are plenty of really bad photos in plenty of shoe boxes in the homes of people who grew up and raised families with film rather than digital photography but we'll never get to see them. I'm sure that some were so bad that they didn't even make it to the shoe box. But most photos were taken and kept for the memories, not as the practice of a craft or art: being bad only mattered if it failed to do the job of keeping the memory or proved prohibitively expensive.

I would hazard a guess and say that (domestic) photography today is as bad or better than domestic photography of the latter film era but because it's easier and cheaper, there's more of it and more people see it. But some of the young ones have got very adept at taken good photographs with the equipment they have - even if it's not to our tastes or we think it has little artistic merit - I'm amazed at the techniques and results of some of the selfies online.

Then there's the other side of the equation. Back in the days of film, people knew their limitations and if they wanted a special occasion properly captured, they would hire a professional, particularly for weddings or for family portraits (or they knew an enthusiast in the family who would do their best). People rarely had the equipment and were aware of the costs of film etc. Nowadays, almost everybody has some sort of equipment capable of far more than the cheap 35mm or 120 110* cameras from the film era, and almost everybody sees the act of producing photographs as something cheap. They fail to appreciate the value of a professional (often expecting the better results to be down purely to the expensive camera). You also get people who think that if they get an expensive camera then they will be able to get the better results. There's a product from all this where you get poor photographers touting themselves as professionals, often undercutting the true professionals - and the customer can't see why the true professional is charging so much.

Similarly, with journalistic photography, more amateurs are likely to get a photo of an event just because almost everyone has a capable camera on them at the ready. Printed newspapers are not what they used to be and most people expect to get their news online for "free". News producers are only too happy to publish a picture from an amateur (who is often happy with the kudos of their photo being used and not so bothered about remuneration).

So we see a lot more rubbish photography now than we would see 20 years ago. With a little effort and application, we can also see a lot more good photography than we would see 20 years ago. And (digital) cameras generally have got a lot better - both for taking crap photos and for taking good photos.

* correction edit
 
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I have to admit that when I posted the above, I failed to read the OP properly and overlooked the Flickr bit. I think that by extension, what I said above would go some way to explaining re. Flickr inasmuch as there's a lot more low standard stuff available nowadays but I have to say that I haven't noticed one way or the other myself. Other things to take into consideration would be how and why people use Flickr now compared to "then" and that older photos couldn't be taken on newer cameras: if more people are posting a lower standard now than then - then it follows that more of the crap will be on newer cameras and conversely, a higher proportion of the good stuff will be on older cameras.

Flickr have also changed their rules. You can't have so many photos with restricted viewing now as you once could on free accounts - so anyone posting for sharing purposes (whether that be for hosting or for "family and friends") will now have to make those photos public - and those photos might be posted for reasons other than artistic merit or technical competence.
 
So we see a lot more rubbish photography now than we would see 20 years ago.
Which raises the question: why call anyone else's pictures "rubbish"?

Anyone has the right to say "I don't like that" because that simply expresses an opinion but use of the word "rubbish" is an absolute statement that really shouldn't be used, other than to define those items which cannot be placed in your home recycling bin.
 
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Which raises the question: why call anyone else's pictures "rubbish"?

Anyone has the right to say "I don't like that" because that simply expresses an opinion but use of the word "rubbish" is an absolute statement that really shouldn't be used, other than to define those items which cannot be placed in your home recycling bin.
Well of course "rubbish" can be a value judgement and subjective. There's also consensus as to what's good and bad. Unlike the curate's egg, there can be good and bad in a photograph. This whole thread is on the premise that there is "better" (and you can't have better without "worse" - and by extension, there must be worst and best). The OP also used the term "dross" which literally is rubbish. We have all seen the work of cowboy wedding photographers that can very much and unequivocally be described as below the required standard - ergo "rubbish".

As you say, anyone has the right to express an opinion - and to describe something as rubbish can be a valid opinion. It's not an absolute term - one man's rubbish is another man's riches. Rag and bone men and the recycling industry are proof of that. Just because I put something in the recycle bin at home doesn't mean that it isn't rubbish - quite the opposite - I only put rubbish in the recycle bin.

This thread isn't even dealing with specific pieces - it's a generalisation - and the term "rubbish" is perfectly adequate and understandable for the purposes of this thread.

There's context too. I did say "most photos were taken and kept for the memories, not as the practice of a craft or art: being bad only mattered if it failed to do the job of keeping the memory or proved prohibitively expensive". The context being that artistically or technically poor pictures are not bad pictures if they fulfill the purpose of a memento. They can be the best memento in the world but still rubbish technically or even artistically (though that is obviously more subjective).

I reserve my right to use the term "rubbish" in generalisations to describe the depths of "worse" as distinct from the "better" or "best", and it really isn't slagging off any single person's photography or treating any actual photo with contempt but it does acknowledge that some photos have reached those depths, particularly when judged from an artistic and/or technical perspective - and let's face it, that perspective and subjectivity is pretty much integral to a photography forum.
 
I reserve my right to use the term "rubbish" in generalisations
...and I reserve the right to consider such opinions specious, in a purely general sense, of course. :naughty:
 
To illustrate how cameras change here is the same scene shot on a D80 (10MPix CCD sensor) and a D750 ((11MPIX CMOS sensor in DX mode) using the same model lens (Nikon 18-70) with the standard vivid/landscape settings:

D80 Vivid

POW Bridge Comparison D80V 1.JPG

D750 Landscape (Vivid is even less close)

POW Bridge Comparison D750 L 2.JPG

It is possible to make the D750 picture look closer to the D80 one, but it is a lot of work.
 
It is possible to make the D750 picture look closer to the D80 one, but it is a lot of work.
I really don't see much, if any, difference between those two images.

What differences are you claiming?
 
The D80 has different colours. There is more saturation in the reds and yellows and a general shift to red. The D750 looks a bit murkier/flatter on the mud and the contrast in the reflected light on it is higher.
 
The D80 has different colours. There is more saturation in the reds and yellows and a general shift to red. The D750 looks a bit murkier/flatter on the mud and the contrast in the reflected light on it is higher.
Fair enough but I can't see any of that here.

Remember, few screens will agree with one another, if only because the ambient light will affect the perceived brightness, colour and contrast even of identical computers, so you may well be able to see what you claim but the differences won't be visible to others for a multitude of reasons.
 
To illustrate how cameras change here is the same scene shot on a D80 (10MPix CCD sensor) and a D750 ((11MPIX CMOS sensor in DX mode) using the same model lens (Nikon 18-70) with the standard vivid/landscape settings:

D80 Vivid

View attachment 397955

D750 Landscape (Vivid is even less close)

View attachment 397956

It is possible to make the D750 picture look closer to the D80 one, but it is a lot of work.
Looks like a white balance difference to my eyes.
 
Hmm - if you genuinely can't see a difference, I'd either get yourself a better monitor or look a little harder.

To me, the top one is markedly better in colour and tone.

Though I admit I might be being swayed by the fact it's a better composition and it's not on the wonk.
 
Hmm - if you genuinely can't see a difference, I'd either get yourself a better monitor or look a little harder.
No thank you. I'm perfectly happy with the screen I'm using.

Perhaps you might consider that other people have other standards.
 
No thank you. I'm perfectly happy with the screen I'm using.

Perhaps you might consider that other people have other standards.
I'm afraid I don't understand that comeback.

if you're looking at both images on the same monitor and can't see any differences, then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't see how standards come in to it.
 
Hmm - if you genuinely can't see a difference, I'd either get yourself a better monitor or look a little harder.

To me, the top one is markedly better in colour and tone.

Though I admit I might be being swayed by the fact it's a better composition and it's not on the wonk.
I agree about the composition and wonkyness. The D750 one was the second set and I spent less time looking at the scene. I was just trying to get a picture for colour comparison to help work up a fake D80 picture control.
 
The D80 has different colours. There is more saturation in the reds and yellows and a general shift to red. The D750 looks a bit murkier/flatter on the mud and the contrast in the reflected light on it is higher.

Thanks for doing the comparison, which is interesting for several reasons.

Differences - I can see that the D80 is both warmer and more saturated than the D750. In addition contrast is very notably lower with the D80: highlights are softer, shadows less dense and the image looks fairly heavily compressed. This is presumably using jpg images relying on the in-camera processing, rather than raws which would give a better sensor comparison.

Remember, few screens will agree with one another, if only because the ambient light will affect the perceived brightness, colour and contrast even of identical computers, so you may well be able to see what you claim but the differences won't be visible to others for a multitude of reasons.

I'd politely suggest this is much more about observer than screen - I've looked at these on my phone, on an uncalibrated screen at work, on my calibrated screen at home, and in each case the difference is clear, even on the 6.5" phone screen. It's been obvious for some time that you see pictures differently from many of us, Andrew, and at one stage I thought it was more about taste and aesthetics. Now I'm inclined to believe that you actually see images differently from many of us, and that's why these aren't obviously different to you.

I know some forum users could open up photoshop and measure luminosity and colour value from different parts of the image to give the differences numbers - standards if you want to call it that - but there's not really a need to do so. It's unfortunate that one image was described as 'better' than the other (if pressed, that poster might say they like that image more than the other, which would be more accurate) when they're really test images without a strong pictorial intent.

Please let me also apologise for the times when I've not understood why you've posted some of the pictures that you have.
 
it’s unfortunate that one image was described as 'better' than the other (if pressed, that poster might say they like that image more than the other, which would be more accurate) when they're really test images without a strong pictorial intent.

If you re-read the post you’ll see that I started it with “To me… “ which means the following statement is a personal opinion.

And it wasn’t a comment on the artistic merit of either picture. Only highlighting that I can clearly see the difference in the two pictures and it’s enough for me to, subjectively, think one has better tones and colours than the other.
 
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As I was browsing images from Sony cameras I came across some surprisingly good ones from the Sony DSC H1, 2 and 3 ranges. Checked the cameras out and decided I'd buy a H9 for £40 based on the images I was seeing (have a look yourselves) some really stunning ones from a 20 year old (compact) camera.

I then decided to see what the evolution of this range was in case I like it and fancy upgrading. So had a look at the HX400V which came out 10 years later. The images are nowhere near as good

To be clear, I don't mean from a pixel peeping point of view I mean from a composition and choice of subject. If you have a look you'll see what I mean

I guess the question is, as camera's have evolved have we been subjected to more dross being posted - quantity over quality, or have more people bought cameras who wouldn't normally have bought them as they don't have the photography bug, but just fancy a shiny new toy

Would be interested in your thoughts

It is never the camera it is down to the photographer.
 
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