Is Adobe flash going to die?

I cant discuss my business properly on here, so please dont push me down the path where I need to defend my position

No, but you're happy to promote it at EVERY given opportunity aren't you?

You can't argue about the merits of particular technologies without referring to your business? This thread isn't an opportunity for you to sell your business offerings. It's here to discuss a particular technology and it's usefulness in todays age.
 
So 2 art directors go out for a Pinot Grigio. One says to the other "hey, I saw this great new photographer today - we should get him to do some works for us". "Sweet - let's fire up his website on our iPads - oh. So anyway, there's this other guy who's really good....".

If the big companies didn't believe this was already happening or that Big Steve would relent then they wouldn't be altering all the major portfolio skins to serve up a a special version for the iPad. Soon they will remember that coding 2 versions of a site is harder than coding 1 and adios Flash.

'Course it won't die completely. People still use tables for layout and the flashing text tag...

When I started this thread, I think that was exactly the sort of scenario I had in mind. Having spent some time with art directors recently, I'm amazed/impressed at how much they user their ipads. I know there will be other tablets but I don't see arty types moving away from Apple.
And as apple seem unrelenting, that was why I questioned whether flash will survive.

I should probably re-phrased the question, will flash die for photographers portfolio sites?
 
This is the crazy thing. I'm defending Flash and it's staying power because I KNOW how good it is at certain things. I spent 5 years building desktop applications with it and Adobe AIR, the later for almost 3 years as I had access to it before it went gold.

My own site is built using Wordpress, jQuery and a few other bits. No Flash. Personally I wouldn't build my portfolio site in Flash but I can see why some do. But just because I don't use Flash for my own site doesn't mean I think the technology is poor. For example. I recently built a basic top trumps style flash game in 2 days. It was 50kb in size. It loads assets that add to the total file size, such as images and text, but the actual flash file that's generated is only 50kb or so. That's smaller than the total loading size for this one forum page you're reading and it's javascript and HTML.

The same can be said for a well developed portfolio site. You could build, if you wanted, your own custom slideshow application in AS3 and it might come to around 20 or 30K as a compiled flash file. The assets it would load and animate would be your images and captions... assets that are going to be displayed on your website regardless of whether or not you're using Flash or something else.

I think in future if I was to ever work with Flash/AS3 it'd be for writing AIR applications, which are themselves platform independent. Imagine creating a portfolio using AIR that can be run on ANY computer without an internet connection. You could send out custom portfolios for each potential contact. Something for them to carry around or keep for reference. You could couple that with your online portfolio using either html or Flash and then combined with print material you'd have a pretty solid marketing strategy right there.

I'm not sure the argument is really whether or not Flash is still relevant for photographers, more that it should be how to effectively use all tools available to you to put together an effective marketing strategy for yourself. After all that's what you're starting to do when you're thinking about your first website.
 
This is the crazy thing. I'm defending Flash and it's staying power because I KNOW how good it is at certain things. I spent 5 years building desktop applications with it and Adobe AIR, the later for almost 3 years as I had access to it before it went gold.

My own site is built using Wordpress, jQuery and a few other bits. No Flash. Personally I wouldn't build my portfolio site in Flash but I can see why some do. But just because I don't use Flash for my own site doesn't mean I think the technology is poor. For example. I recently built a basic top trumps style flash game in 2 days. It was 50kb in size. It loads assets that add to the total file size, such as images and text, but the actual flash file that's generated is only 50kb or so. That's smaller than the total loading size for this one forum page you're reading and it's javascript and HTML.

The same can be said for a well developed portfolio site. You could build, if you wanted, your own custom slideshow application in AS3 and it might come to around 20 or 30K as a compiled flash file. The assets it would load and animate would be your images and captions... assets that are going to be displayed on your website regardless of whether or not you're using Flash or something else.

I think in future if I was to ever work with Flash/AS3 it'd be for writing AIR applications, which are themselves platform independent. Imagine creating a portfolio using AIR that can be run on ANY computer without an internet connection. You could send out custom portfolios for each potential contact. Something for them to carry around or keep for reference. You could couple that with your online portfolio using either html or Flash and then combined with print material you'd have a pretty solid marketing strategy right there.

I'm not sure the argument is really whether or not Flash is still relevant for photographers, more that it should be how to effectively use all tools available to you to put together an effective marketing strategy for yourself. After all that's what you're starting to do when you're thinking about your first website.

see post 31.. that's just part of what a flash site is up against

Will it stay? probrably will be persistent for a while

Many of the forum page files are cached on the client machine

Is it the best tool for building sites with? Not in most cases

Do flash sites sites load quickly? nope not usually - often when people see the loading symbol that you see on most flash sites, they click back on the browser. Its a common complaint from a lot of users
 
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could you guys keep any personal stuff out of it please. Once you get going on the tech side it's a good debate (y)
 
Im a bit lost in all this but i have a question.

When we talk about flash lasting, is it the brand or what the brand does? What i mean is that flash is just a way of combining various media formats into one interactive program right, so is it slow because its trying to achieve too much or is it more to because the code architecture is fundamentally flawed, or because of the people writing scripts inefficiently?

Another question;
If you want to make a flash program do you have to buy Flash software from adobe, or is it just a case of learning a language, like from a book or something?
 
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Im a bit lost in all this but i have a question.

When we talk about flash lasting, is it the brand or what the brand does? What i mean is that flash is just a way of combining various media formats into one interactive program right, so is it slow because its trying to achieve too much or is it more to because the code architecture is fundamentally flawed, or because of the people writing scripts inefficiently?

Another question;
If you want to make a flash program do you have to buy Flash software from adobe, or is it just a case of learning a language, like from a book or something?

Flash is the brand name. The programming language serious Flash developers use is ActionScript. Current ActionScript 3 is the latest incarnation of the language.

You're close on the combining media thing. Basically you can use Flash to create multimedia experiences. Images, audio, movies are all assets that you can use in your flash development.

What makes Flash slow is bad developers. It's not the tool for the most part, it's how people develop with it. There used to be stability issues with the technology but now those are largely resolved. If you are, or can get someone who is, a competent flash developer then you'll end up with a good solid flash application that works well.

If you want to become a good Flash developer you need to forget about the Adobe product and stop thinking about the timeline animation that was basically all Flash was in it's early days. It's much more than that. It's a fully fledged object orientated programming language. There are some open source tools available to you but the best are commercial and therefor command a fee. I develop using Eclipse. If you want to build flash applications you can use Eclipse (free) and a plugin called FDT (not free). It's not cheap but I swear by it. There are all sorts of libraries available on the internet to make things easier and quicker to develop, things such as the Tweener library to make animation a lot easier and quicker to do using code.

If you want to get books then the most important one to get is Colin Moock's Essential Actionscript 3. That would form the foundation of you're learning.
 
Interesting. Off topic but interesting.

Having come from a C background and progressing into C++ and now C# I have found it quite a challenge to convince some people. There is definitely much fear over adding layers of abstraction but typically the issue is that people are stuck in an old paradigm which doesn't lend itself to achieving performance with abstracted architecture. Working with the architecture now I'm achieving greater performance than years ago developing at a lower level. Its mostly about understanding the constraints and intended use of the architecture. The scientific applications I've developed and productionised in C++ and C# wouldn't have been viable in anything lower level.

Would be interesting to hear more that sometime.

Andy.

The best example I can provide is what happened when I re-wrote our RC4 function from 'C' to assembly. Execution time whent down by a factor of six (executable code size by a factor of four). If you aren't familiar with RC4 it's a very simple algorithm (the wikipedia page shows it) which works with a lot of 8 bit values so lends itself well to assembly, where I can make efficiency savings that a compiler can't (in fact, one of the things that depresses me is the quality of assembly that compilers produce, but it also keeps me in work ).

Re-writing into c# simply wouldn't achieve anything, it's not something that lends itself to abstraction.


arad85, don't get the quiche reference at all. I feel that I should, since I sent my first email before there was a www, but no idea.
 
Thanks KayJay, that clarifies things for me (y)

I cant see myself ever learning to code though, the concept of it all is fascinating but the practical side of it doesn't appeal to me.

Heres another question if i can without derailing the tread (i have been known),

All these different scripts/codes languages, who made the code that enabled others to write these different codes? I mean i cant just open notepad and start inventing my own programming language from a base level can i?

Maybe a link to somesort of programming bible for dummies is in order, if i google myself im not sure i'd know how to find what it is i want to know, im not even sure i know what it is i want to know.
 
Jeez.. does it matter. With loads of processing power and memory available, it shouldn't make a difference.

When you consider that more and more people are accessing the web on mobile devices that are limited by

a) processing

b) memory

c) power

it becomes an issue, whether or not Flash is supported on the platform (and sometimes for the reasons above - see Apple iPhone).

Even on a 'proper' laptop, not using Flash can have a significant effect on battery life.

http://www.reghardware.com/2010/11/05/apple_macbook_air_flash_crash/
 
With all due respect this statement is absolutely ridiculous when you consider what other forms of multimedia are transmitted over the internet. You're basically saying that video will die on the internet because of bandwidth issues.

No I'm saying is if the big sites have to pay the service providers for the bandwidth then they'll look to cut the wasteful bandwidth, to concentrate on real content, and out goes any silly flash crap, then again the more likely scenario, we will have to pay a subscription to view the bigger usage sites, as The Times are now doing.



I must say that using flashblock I'm seeing less and less of the logo showing where flash has been blocked, so I guess it's already reducing in usage, then again I do tend to avoid heavy flash sites anyway.
 
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For someone who likes to think of themselves as being at the forefront of web technology it astounds me you don't know much about one that is on 98% of machines connected to the internet.
Assuming there that you are trying to quote from Adobe's website? There are a couple of problems I have with that.
Firstly, they are not sampling machines, they sampled PC's only. Which means that they excluded all MACs, all slates, all hand-held devices.
Also, if you look at their data, it was compiled in July 2009, and only published 2010, this suggests that it was used as a timing function, rather than possible actual fact.
Also, they have used a minuscule sample size, and scaled to ginormous amounts. I do not believe their 3.5% error rate. For a start, at 3.5% of 98.7% (the claimed amount), that give 101.94% of PC users have flash installed. (HMMM)
The final problem, is that the survey gives a list of those machines/PCs which have installed flash, but not those that can use it. For the last year, 64bit OS's have primarily been sold, however, 64bit flash is still in beta mode. Meaning that the default web-browser won't see flash, or you have to use a 32bit browser (OK, so a 32bit browser means no real difference to most people).

I know there will be other tablets but I don't see arty types moving away from Apple.
And as apple seem unrelenting, that was why I questioned whether flash will survive.

I should probably re-phrased the question, will flash die for photographers portfolio sites?
There are various problems with flash, one of them being lazy people who program it. You can get bloated flash programs, and some which have memory leaks. This means that low-powered devices would be susceptible to these programs slowing them down, a good reason not to run them if you have the choice. If you have a choice of technologies which can perform the task you want to do, then a decision needs to be made as to which is most suitable. This should be a weigh-up between the number of people who can view/use it, and how easily it is to generate it.
If you can produce a portfolio site, using DHTML, then this might be the best bet.

because the code architecture is fundamentally flawed, or because of the people writing scripts inefficiently?
In my view, a mixture of the two. As an interpretive/JIT style platform, it cannot fully be optimised for the architectures that it has to run on.
Also, because it is easy to program, there are a lot of people who state that they are good programmers, but just throw them together. They have nice fast machines, and don't realise how bloated their programs are.

All these different scripts/codes languages, who made the code that enabled others to write these different codes? I mean i cant just open notepad and start inventing my own programming language from a base level can i?

The initial programs were written in machine code, by people who understand how the processors worked. Then came assemblers, which allowed people to write instructions to the processors, such as MOVWe memory from address 0x0001 to working memory, ADD 0x0030
An understanding of how the processor is functioning is useful for assembly, an assembler then compiles it into machine code for you.
Then in an assembly language, someone would write a compiler, which took more meaningful textual type language like C/fortran and convert it into an assembly/machine code for you.

You could easily write a new programming language using a C compiler, and notepad. For example, the GNU C compiler, is written in C and compiled now. The perl scripting language is written in C
 
When you consider that more and more people are accessing the web on mobile devices that are limited by

a) processing

b) memory

c) power
....
Even on a 'proper' laptop, not using Flash can have a significant effect on battery life.

Quite, my laptop has 2GB of memory, but one of the sites I have to use is running flash code, which has a memory leak in it. After 40 minutes of running, the laptop either is out of memory, or the OOM reaper has killed the flash applet. (Closing the tab with the flash applet in it will reclaim the memory for me otherwise).
 
When you consider that more and more people are accessing the web on mobile devices that are limited by

a) processing

b) memory

c) power

it becomes an issue, whether or not Flash is supported on the platform (and sometimes for the reasons above - see Apple iPhone).

Even on a 'proper' laptop, not using Flash can have a significant effect on battery life.

http://www.reghardware.com/2010/11/05/apple_macbook_air_flash_crash/

Its a larger issue than that. 15 years ago, everyone had a similar PC and screen, now we have widescreens, TV's, mobiles (portrait format), PDA's, laptops.. In addition there are litterally 100's variants of browser/OS, and a myriad of user options that turn things on and off like security measures, flash, scripting, adverts etc..

The other side of the coin is that banks are demanding PCI DSS compliance, and extra's are creeping into that as well - things like personal data security (things like your name, as opposed to your credit card details)

At the same time, there is a strong lobby of users demanding extra interactivity, swisher interaction. So while devices are diversifying, Users are demanding different experiences depending on the device they are on

If you have 3G connection, where you are paying real ££ for bandwidth, you wont appreciate fancypants weighty interactive content rich sites. You will appreciate your browser cache. If you have a always on connection with a widescreen windows 7 PC - you will love a full width full screen glossy interactive site - the same site is a nightmare on a phone
 
Loads of versions of this, http://www.dcs-media.com/Archive/humor-real-programmers-dont-eat-quiche-AI. It harps back to the early days but it still makes me laugh.
This is the one I remember when I was a young programmer working using both Pascal and FORTRAN back in the mid 80's (before moving to hand crafting software for bit-slice processors - now that was a labour of love)...

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html

Such great memories of systems - I even remember working on an old PDP 11/70 with no OS on the (5Mbyte) disk and toggling in an assembly program to echo characters back to an attached terminal... And yes, it did work!

I just wish I'd kept one of the core memory boards when the thing was finally decomissioned...
 
Prompted by a comment on Twitter, I thought it might be time to re-start old arguments over the merit, or not, of flash sites.

I'm sure I read somewhere, possibly here, that Flash would not be around in a couple of years time.

I'd be interested to hear what the good folk of TP think :)

It is without doubt on it's way out because there are better ways now of doing a lot of the things that it does. jQuery is a prime example.
 
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