Is it illegal to sell images of landmarks under the national trust

Johnny1982

Johnny1982

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Johnny
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Yes
I ask because myself and my friend were up at Mow Cop castle (Cheshire) y'day having fun taking some portraits and landscapes.
A man wearing a national trust jacket walked upto us and asked us if we were amateurs.
He then went on to say its ok if you are but we will prosecute anyone selling images of the castle.

He said the castle is copyrighted by the national trust.

He then waffled on about some guys who were taking portrait shots of themselfs and having the castle as the back drop and using them shots commercially was illegal or whatever. I tuned out at this point.

I want to know if there is any truth behind this and wether you can or can't sell images of the castle at your own desire.

Anyone with some trusty know how wanna share their thoughts?
 
I know they are pretty strict and have their own photo library so it wouldn't surprise me if it was true.
 
Hi, I have a copy of the National Trust handbook and it says that amateur photography is welcomed outdoors, but is not permitted inside when houses are open to visitors. However, special arrangements can be made to take interior photographs by appointment outside opening hours.

For commercial photography, you have to contact the Broadcast Media Liaison Officer, tel: 020 7799 4547.

I hope this is of some help.
 
I would think this comes under 'conditions of entry' to the 'private' land/grounds etc, if your were on say the public highway with said NT castle in your shot then they can go whistle. However I suspect this was not the case and you were within the NT boundaries and any reasonable conditions can be imposed.
 
I saw an article on this a while ago. If they spot one of your images they could sue you. You wont go to jail. This includes National trust beaches.
 
The shots I was taking was for fun and I won't be using them comericially.
However I have taken on photograph of the castle that I wouldn't mind selling which was taken from the road therefore off their grounds.
 
natjag said:
If they spot one of your images they could sue you.
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I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just unsure.

What they going to sue you over? The national trust doesn't own the 'intellectual property' of the land or the buildings?

I'm going to do some research and find out.
 
I think I read the same article but I seem to remember it saying that you can't sell images taken on their land but if you take an image of their land from off their land then you can. Unless you get a permit first in which case you can sell images of their land taken from on their land.

Clear? Good;)
 
I am Chris Lacey - Photographic Manager, working for the National Trust in the photographic library. I have been forwarded your email which you sent to Rosalind Stone last week - see below for your ref.

I note from your website that you advertise the images are for sale. Could I ask if you have written permission from the National Trust to be able to photograph and commercially exploit images of it's properties in this way please? I am afraid that if you do not, to financially benefit from commercial image sales of National Trust intellectual property in this way would be to contravene the National Trust's policy of no commercial photography of it's properties.

(Once you pay for a ticket and enter the property - which is privately owned by the NT - you are abiding by the terms and conditions of entry, of which one is no commercial photography allowed without first gaining written permissions. Amateur photography or photography taken for person use only is permitted.)

If you can produce confirmation of permissions then please do so, I would be most grateful. If not, then please may I kindly ask that you take the images of National Trust properties off of your website, and that you refrain from exploiting them for financial gain please.
If you shoot NT properties from a public stand point then this is not contravening the policy and would be acceptable. (Public highway, road, public footpath etc.)
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Tbabe said:
I am Chris Lacey - Photographic Manager, working for the National Trust in the photographic library. I have been forwarded your email which you sent to Rosalind Stone last week - see below for your ref.

I note from your website that you advertise the images are for sale. Could I ask if you have written permission from the National Trust to be able to photograph and commercially exploit images of it's properties in this way please? I am afraid that if you do not, to financially benefit from commercial image sales of National Trust intellectual property in this way would be to contravene the National Trust's policy of no commercial photography of it's properties.

(Once you pay for a ticket and enter the property - which is privately owned by the NT - you are abiding by the terms and conditions of entry, of which one is no commercial photography allowed without first gaining written permissions. Amateur photography or photography taken for person use only is permitted.)

If you can produce confirmation of permissions then please do so, I would be most grateful. If not, then please may I kindly ask that you take the images of National Trust properties off of your website, and that you refrain from exploiting them for financial gain please.
If you shoot NT properties from a public stand point then this is not contravening the policy and would be acceptable. (Public highway, road, public footpath etc.)
Click to expand...

It's a relief to read that they only forbid commercial photography of the properties that you have to pay to enter. They own so much land - some of the most stunning landscapes in the UK - it would be a real problem if they started trying to restrict photography of that.

I'm coming to the conclusion anyway that the National Trust is not a charity I would like to support, and which has far money than it knows what to do with.

And buildings as intellectual property? I suppose they've taken legal advice on this but it sounds pretty dodgy to me....
 
The castle isn't copyrighted by the National Trust, talking out of his bumhole for that one.

However, it's part of the conditions of entry that you don't use photos for commercial purposes...that bit is correct. Basically what Kev M says.

It's not what's in the photos that is paramount...it's where the photos were taken from.

From off their land, you're OK (mostly anyway...). From ON their land, then youve broken the conditions of entry, which would legally be a 'contract'.

Could they sue you? Possibly, for breach of contract.
What would they be allowed to sue you for......their losses? So maybe your profits from the image, plus court / legal costs etc? I'd say that's about it.....

Apart from breach of contract, the only other thing you would be guilty of is trespass. But you're already off the property :)
 
If you can produce confirmation of permissions then please do so, I would be most grateful. If not, then please may I kindly ask that you take the images of National Trust properties off of your website, and that you refrain from exploiting them for financial gain please.

Not that I sell my images (not good enough) :crying: but I do show them on my web site (well Stourhead).
Because of their (NT) attitude I did not renew my membership last month.
I think Lulworth Cove area may be covered with the same rules.
Won't be long now for our town council to jump on the bandwagon and stop you selling photos of the towns relics :rules: :nono:
 
kissfoto said:
Who OWNS the National Trust ???
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They're a charity organisation, independent from the Government or State.

Their money comes from wills, donations, sales and membership. Their properties are either left to them in wills or bought in an effort to avoid them falling into ruin - but the key thing is that they are privately owned by the charity itself and they are within their rights to forbid commercial photography from within their lands.
Even if you're a member that doesn't give you ownership or photography rights.

It's a relief that they only seem to be enforcing their rules on properties with an entrance fee/ticket that allows them to impose their t&c's - it would be a real shame if they started enforcing this restriction on any National Trust land.

If this was an English Heritage property then we might have more to complain about since I think they are a distant arm of the Department of Culture, Media and Sport.


The only thing I'm not sure about is their response describing
commercial image sales of National Trust intellectual property
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since I'm not convinced that a building could be described as IP? It would be different if you'd stolen images and were passing them off as yours but how can they claim you are selling something that is their IP?
 
is that a quote or directed directly at me?
I am Chris Lacey - Photographic Manager, working for the National Trust in the photographic library. I have been forwarded your email which you sent to Rosalind Stone last week - see below for your ref.

I note from your website that you advertise the images are for sale. Could I ask if you have written permission from the National Trust to be able to photograph and commercially exploit images of it's properties in this way please? I am afraid that if you do not, to financially benefit from commercial image sales of National Trust intellectual property in this way would be to contravene the National Trust's policy of no commercial photography of it's properties.

(Once you pay for a ticket and enter the property - which is privately owned by the NT - you are abiding by the terms and conditions of entry, of which one is no commercial photography allowed without first gaining written permissions. Amateur photography or photography taken for person use only is permitted.)

If you can produce confirmation of permissions then please do so, I would be most grateful. If not, then please may I kindly ask that you take the images of National Trust properties off of your website, and that you refrain from exploiting them for financial gain please.
If you shoot NT properties from a public stand point then this is not contravening the policy and would be acceptable. (Public highway, road, public footpath etc.)
??
 
incapete said:
The only thing I'm not sure about is their response describing since I'm not convinced that a building could be described as IP? It would be different if you'd stolen images and were passing them off as yours but how can they claim you are selling something that is their IP?
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You'd imagine that any intellectual property would belong to the architect or designer, and in most NT properties such a person would have died a long time ago.

This just goes to support my case that the NT has too much power and too much money.

£4.00 to use their car parks in Pembrokeshire this year...absolute b****y ripoff. Just thought I'd mention that....
 
Also down here in Cornwall they own most of the coastline & I refuse to pay £4 - £6.00 to park in "thier" car park to walk around the beaches & cliffs that I am allready paying to keep clean etc !!!
 
I contacted the NT a couple of years ago offering to sell them one of my photos that i took at a NT place, and i ended up cowering away with my tail between my legs!
 
The NT intellectual property is stuff like logos. The buildings them selves are not the IP of the NT.
In the e-mail from Chris Lacey, he states that if you sell a photo taken from land that you didn't have pay to get in, that's ok.

But. Bearing in mind that it is an identifiable private property you should still get a property release if you want to sell the photos.
 
Johnny1982 said:
is that a quote or directed directly at me?
??
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Hi Johnny - it's a quote from the response you got from Chris Lacey - second paragraph mentions sales of National Trust IP.
Just struck me as odd that they're trying to use IP law to cover themselves when I can't work out what IP is being infringed here - there's plenty of other reasons they could have given for you not being able to sell photos of their properties.
 
A friend of mine Genese was asked to leave St Michaels mount for taking picks with a 5d and you would expect the nt to love cannons - lol:woot:
 
retired said:
I think Lulworth Cove area may be covered with the same rules.
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Lulworth Cove is owned by the Weld Estate - nothing at all to do with the National Trust - and yes, is covered by similar restrictions on what you can do with the pictures.

B.
 
I wonder how this works for places such as the Farne islands which are NT owned, and require a ticket to enter.

There are I'm sure a god number of wildlife shots sold commercially that were taken there...
 
In Cornwall as through out the country the nt now rents out venues for weddings, would you therfore not be able to have any print sales that showed the property inside or out during the proceedings !!!
 
You need a property release form, in a similar way you need a model release form. It can depend on the end use of the image. If they own a property they own all rights to it. If the image is used in a big ad campaign, then the release form should be used. If your selling prints at a local art fair, hope they don't see you profiting from it. If your not on their property when you took the picture, then tough (unless it's used in a big ad campaign).
 
It was something I came up against on NT land, they own the Deer Park at Fountains Abbey, although you don't have to pay to walk around it, it still comes under the same restrictions as paid entry fee land/buildings regarding 'not for commercial use'.

Although it did cross my mind, because there is a public footpath going across the park, if I stood on the public footpath to take photos of the deer, would the same restrictions apply.

And I do have the deer shots from NT land on my website, but as I don't intend to sell them it shouldn't fall foul of their regulations?
 
retired said:
I think Lulworth Cove area may be covered with the same rules.
Click to expand...

As far as I'm aware, Lulworth Cove, Durdle Door and Stair Hole are all part of the Weld Estate, not the NT, not that the Weld Estate are any better. It was the Weld Estate who illegally closed a public ROW then made a big fuss saying how great they were for reopening it. I've had many arguments with their over zelous staff at Durdle Door and the Cove, with 2 of them telling me that photography with an SLR is not allowed. This is of course nonsense.

It appears now that it's all operated by 'The Lulworth Estate' but as far as I'm aware, this is in fact the same old Weld Estate.
 
there is nothing to stop you selling a print even if its taken on the land. they don't own the copyright to the buildings and thus have nothing to enforce. if you used the image for advertisment other than your own work I still think they woul dhave a pretty hard time sueing you for it.
 
Some more information for you.

Mow Cop castle is completely free to enter. There is no parking fees but is a carpark. There is no information kiost or anything like that. I don't know where the NT man came from but there is a house kinda located at the castle.
 
Les McLean said:
It was something I came up against on NT land, they own the Deer Park at Fountains Abbey, although you don't have to pay to walk around it, it still comes under the same restrictions as paid entry fee land/buildings regarding 'not for commercial use'.

Although it did cross my mind, because there is a public footpath going across the park, if I stood on the public footpath to take photos of the deer, would the same restrictions apply.
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If I was feeling bloody-minded I would do just this, and see what happened if anyone tried to stop me!

Having said that, I think the only right you've got on a public footpath, strictly speaking, is to walk along it. I'm fairly sure they would have every right to move you along, especially if you had a tripod!
 
Johnny1982 said:
Some more information for you.

Mow Cop castle is completely free to enter. There is no parking fees but is a carpark. There is no information kiost or anything like that. I don't know where the NT man came from but there is a house kinda located at the castle.
Click to expand...

Perhaps he's a car park attendant with ambitions of greater things.

I've had a nasty row with a pillock of a National Trust car park attendant....
 
POAH said:
there is nothing to stop you selling a print even if its taken on the land. they don't own the copyright to the buildings and thus have nothing to enforce. if you used the image for advertisment other than your own work I still think they woul dhave a pretty hard time sueing you for it.
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It's a bit like saying you don't have the copyright to your face that statement. You won't mind me taking a photo of you and trying to flog it then will you. It's not about the copyright of the building it's about it being their private property and them setting the rules for your entry to it. By buying a ticket you agree to those rules and if you break them then there may be consequences.
 
There is a moral question anyway.....why would anyone want to benefit off a charity? To actually go out to take photographs of something that is lovingly cared for, with the purpose of selling them on, without any come back for the NT seems bit immoral to me.

If I ever made a profit from a photo from the NT I'd be inclinded to donate it to the cause :)
 
jerry12953 said:
I think the only right you've got on a public footpath, strictly speaking, is to walk along it.
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The following is what is stated on my County website with information on Public Rights of Way (includes Footpaths / Bridleways etc).

Q: Can i stop on a right of way?

A: You may pause for breath, to admire the view, make a sketch or do other things incidental to your journey but you must not obstruct other people when you do so.
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