Is it worth me upgrading or have I got 'upgradeitis'?

[danski]

Hi all - first post on here so please go softly with me.

Seeking a bit of advice if I may.

To set the scene, I ventured into the world of DSLR photography about 2 years ago now and can honestly say that I've discovered an artistic side to me that I never knew I had! Not bad for someone who doesn't have an artistic bone in his body (or so I thought!)

Anyway, I started off with the Canon 450D and 18-55mm and 55-250mm kit lenses as my toe in the water. It was a very close fight between the 450D and the 50D, but decided on the 450D as I figured it was a low risk (and cost) approach if I didn't like it.

Since I'm definitely enjoying it (12,000+ pics), I started upgrading/adding to my camera bag.

So, I'm now the proud owner of the Tokina 12-24mm f/4 lens which I bought on a recent trip to NY - great for wide angle city shots, as well as landscapes. I'm still getting used to the lens, but think I'll be hanging on to it for a while.

I bought the Canon 24-105 L f/4 back in November and absolutely love this lens. A great general purpose lens which spends the most time on the camera (80+% of my shots now)

Just bought (today) a Canon 70-200mm L f/4 non-IS lens - thinking of this for mixture of portrait, landscape and motorsport. Thought hard about the IS version, but figured I could hook it up to my (underused!) tripod (Manfrotto 190XB) for motorsport and landscape to compensate for lack of IS. Plus, I try to shoot in fairly good light, so hopefully I can get away with some decent handheld shots for the above.

I also just bought a Canon 430 EX II flash, mainly to help with some of my portraits when taking them indoors.

I fully expect I'll be selling the kit lenses in the not too distant future, given their range has effectively been replaced by better quality glass. I haven't got any major complaints with these lenses, other than they can be a little soft, hence I've been spending money on more expensive glass as I like my pics to be pin sharp, whenever I can.


A bit about my style/interests

I don't have a particular 'speciality', instead I enjoy a mixture of photography, which is mainly comprised of portraits, landscapes, foreign cultures, motorsport and fireworks.

I'm lucky (or unlucky depending on how you see it) in that I get to travel quite a lot with work, mainly to continental Europe, India and US, so tend to take my camera with me for the times when I'm not working, so I get to photo all sorts.

This is definitely a hobby for me, but I do like to buy the best I can afford when it comes to all my kit.


So what advice do I need?

I've been thinking about buying the new 7D having read some rave reviews about this, but not sure if this is a case of upgradeitis or if I should carry on with my 450D.

The main attractions of the 7D for me are the 19 point AF, micro-adjustment focus for lenses, more fps, prosumer class and build (although no complaints with 450D build), better at high ISO's, and obviously higher all-round quality. Not too bothered about the HD video filming, but it's a nice feature that I guess I will use occasionally.

None of these are absolute must haves for me, so there's definitely some upgradeitis, but I also think that it will help me to take my photography to the next level. What do you think?

I'm also thinking very hard about adding a Canon 100-400 L f/4 and a Canon 1.4x Extender to the collection, so I've essentially got all the focal ranges that I'm ever going to need covered.

Not sure if I should invest in these lenses first then the camera or the camera first then the lenses? What do you think? Luckily money isn't too much of an issue (I'm 99% sure I'll end up with all the kit at some point), just don't really want to buy it all at the same time.

Final question is whether it's worth spending £1250 for the peace of mind of having a UK spec one that Canon will service or saving £200 and buying a US spec one from a well established UK-based eBay seller for around £1050, which I can get serviced in the UK through the seller, should anything go wrong.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Also, apologies for being long-winded, but I like to set the scene to get the best advice.

Dan

 

[HoppyUK]

Welcome to TP

Never mind upgradeitis, you've got equipmentitis. Nothing wrong with that, it's been keeping me happy for many years, just don't expect it to make your pictures suddenly any better But you seem to have plenty of great photo opportunities, so go for it.

If you want sharp, you want full frame. No question about it. The 7D will be better, but it's not night and day. I tried one against my 40D and it's a mighty impressive machine, but I was also foolish enough to try a 5D2 at the same time, and that was. It proved expensive.

I went from the 'ultimate' crop format outfit of a 40D, 10-22, 17-55 2.8, 70-200L 4 IS and 100-400L - skipped the 7D upgrade - and sold the lot for a 5D2, 17-40L, 24-105L and kept the 70-200. I am now seriously short of long lens reach so if you want that, then put the 100-400L back in.

That should sort you out. And fix any excess in your bank balance at the same time.

 

[danski]

Hi HoppyUK - thanks for that. Seems like you're be better at spending money than I am. That's pretty good going

I've read several reviews on the 5D Mk II as this was also a camera I thought about, however I had kind of discarded it having concluded that it's probably a step too far for me at the moment. I also read a few threads from people that had taken a similar jump from xxxD and were considering both 7D and 5D Mk II - some went 5D and others 7D - those that went 7D were generally very happy, those that went 5D were mixed bag, with some even going as far as to sell their 5D to replace it with a 7D.

I may well end up going FF in the future, so always try to bear this in mind when buying lenses, to avoid a costly lens upgrade at the same time as a costly camera upgrade.

Guess a trip down to my local camera shop would be a worthwhile investment of time.

Anyone else got any comments/recommendations?

 

[trevorbray]

Mmmm, no such thing as a step too far. However it's easy to buy twice. Get the 5d2. Hoppys route I reckon is the way to go.
Which ever you choose, 7 or 5D. There is still a bit of a learning curve. Get it right, buy right, buy once.

 

[ding76uk]

5D2. There is no major learning curve really. It does the same job, you have the same control over aperture and shutter speed, there are a few more options, but really not that hard to learn.

As Hoppy says, lens wise: 17-40L 24-105L 70-200L and 100-400L is pretty much the perfect set up.

I switched to the 5D2 from a 40D just over a week ago. It really is astounding the difference. The only thing people moan about sometimes is the autofocus. I honestly think it is fine. You will notice a slight improvement in it coming from a 450D TBH.

The only thing you shoot that a 7D would benefit is motorsport (saying that there are plenty of motorsport togs who use the 5D2), with it's better autofocus system.

Everything else you shoot, the 5D2 will easily be better than the 7D.

Seems like that is where you should be heading.

 

[HoppyUK]

Hi HoppyUK - thanks for that. Seems like you're be better at spending money than I am. That's pretty good going

I've read several reviews on the 5D Mk II as this was also a camera I thought about, however I had kind of discarded it having concluded that it's probably a step too far for me at the moment. I also read a few threads from people that had taken a similar jump from xxxD and were considering both 7D and 5D Mk II - some went 5D and others 7D - those that went 7D were generally very happy, those that went 5D were mixed bag, with some even going as far as to sell their 5D to replace it with a 7D.

I may well end up going FF in the future, so always try to bear this in mind when buying lenses, to avoid a costly lens upgrade at the same time as a costly camera upgrade.

Guess a trip down to my local camera shop would be a worthwhile investment of time.

Anyone else got any comments/recommendations?

Haha! If you want lessons in spending money, you've come to the right place. I am a mere beginner compared to some

As you say, the choice between a 7D and a 5D2 can go either way. It's a bit like the difference between a 1D3 and a 1Ds3 - some folks have both.

I actually think crop format is the better all round choice for most people, and it certain suited me very well for a long time. Smaller, lighter, cheaper, better for long lens and action photography, and really excellent image quality.

But on the IQ front, full frame is better. The sensor is 2.5x larger - never mind the number of pixels, after a certain point it's the size of the pixels that makes the biggest difference. You really need to print big to see what full frame can do, and most people rarely do that in practise and often only view on screen, but if you do, when you do, printing big off full frame has a sharpness and a tonal richness that is stunning.

 

[danski]

not sure I'm clue'd up enough about the differences between crop & FF when it comes down to quality. I appreciate that crop cameras are squeezing pixels into a smaller sensor, therefore noise can sometimes be an issue, although from what I've seen and read the 7D seems to fair very well on that front.

Are you saying that I will generally get much better quality pics from FF as opposed to crop - assuming that my technique is up to scratch of course. If so, please define 'better quality' - is it sharpness, colour?

Of course the 5D Mk II has more pixels, but that doesn't necessarily mean more quality, does it?

Also please bear in mind that I'm an amateur/hobbyist and don't really see myself coming out of that bracket for a long time (if ever), so would the 5D (or 7D for that matter) be overkill? Everyone seems to classify the 5D as a semi-pro camera, which is definitely not me - even the 'prosumer' label for the 7D is probably pushing it for me, however I think I can justify (to myself at least - missus is a harder sell!) spending what would effectively be approx £700-800 once I factor in the sell price of the 450D and kit lenses. Can't help but think that I'd struggle justifying a net £1200 to £1300 upgrade - even to myself!

thanks

Dan

 

[danski]

Hoppy - just noticed your in the East Mids - where abouts? I'm from Notts.

 

[Nod]

Upgardeitis/equipmentitis is extremely contagious and is alos incurable. It is most easily caught by looking at magazine write ups or while posting on forums. The symptoms can be eased though - quite easily - buy the kit you want! Of course, this can lead to sore ears, loss of conjugal priveleges and letters in red ink from bank managers, mortgage companies etc BUT it does stop the itch. For a while.

Good move in avoiding APS-C only lenses. Quite apart from avoiding too many lens upgrades if/when you go FF, you get the benefit of the sweet spot (the central part of the image circle, usually the sharpest area) on crop sensors.

Ignore the labels Pro, ProSumer etc - if that's the model you want, that's the model that'll stop the itch for longest! To help justify it to yourself and other half, leave ads for the thing at a high price lying around and start saving. When you can afford it, "suddenly" find somewhere that's selling at a significant saving and say "Ooooh! Look! I can afford it now AND I'll save £X00 compared to back then." (Worked for me - SWMBO said "Well, if it'll shut you up about the ****ing thing, BUY IT!")

 

[HoppyUK]

not sure I'm clue'd up enough about the differences between crop & FF when it comes down to quality. I appreciate that crop cameras are squeezing pixels into a smaller sensor, therefore noise can sometimes be an issue, although from what I've seen and read the 7D seems to fair very well on that front.

Are you saying that I will generally get much better quality pics from FF as opposed to crop - assuming that my technique is up to scratch of course. If so, please define 'better quality' - is it sharpness, colour?

Of course the 5D Mk II has more pixels, but that doesn't necessarily mean more quality, does it?

Also please bear in mind that I'm an amateur/hobbyist and don't really see myself coming out of that bracket for a long time (if ever), so would the 5D (or 7D for that matter) be overkill? Everyone seems to classify the 5D as a semi-pro camera, which is definitely not me - even the 'prosumer' label for the 7D is probably pushing it for me, however I think I can justify (to myself at least - missus is a harder sell!) spending what would effectively be approx £700-800 once I factor in the sell price of the 450D and kit lenses. Can't help but think that I'd struggle justifying a net £1200 to £1300 upgrade - even to myself!

thanks

Dan

Don't get hung up about it - crop format is extremely good. Just that full frame is better, but only from an ultimate image quality point of view. Everything else is a disadvantage IMHO.

The way to find out is to try it - go in to Jessops and try a 7D and 5D2 side by side, use the same lens, same settings etc and make a couple fo big prints. That's all it takes, nothing fancy. You will see the difference immediately. But don't expect SWMBO to see it, or for it to magically make you a great photographer. It's just that you mentioned sharpness, and that's what full frame gives you (plus better tonality, more shadow detail, higher ISO).

I think it boils down to the reach issue. If you use long lenses a lot, maybe for motorsport or birding/wildlife, crop format undoubtedly has major advantages in practise. Of course you can enjoy the benefits of full frame with long lenses, but you need massive (and massively expensive) primes to do it. Getting 300mm focal length is really quite cheap with a consumer zoom. 400mm gets harder, eg 400L or 100-400L at a grand-ish, but to get the equivalent reach on full frame you'll need 640mm which is huge money.

There is the argument that with a 5D2 and 21mp, you can enlarge that to match crop format and still have 8mp to play with (roughly equivalent to a 40D) but it's not ideal and the 5D2 can't compare to the 7D as a fast action camera.

BTW, I disagree with buying full frame lenses 'in case' you upgrade. You can sell quality stuff on here within hours and if you buy well in the first place, eg used, it will cost you nothing. Lenses specific to crop format are even sharper, plus have more range and can have lower f/numbers for your money. The 17-55 2.8 is a case in point and TBH if I were you I'd swap your 24-105L for one of those - fab lens on crop format with decent wide angle focal length which the 24-105L lacks

Hoppy - just noticed your in the East Mids - where abouts? I'm from Notts.

I'm in Peterborough, you northerner!

 

[danski]

Right - I'm starting to get confused now but I guess that's what forums do to you!

I take the point re: FF and sharpness, but I also like my reach so think I'm going to stay crop for the time being as I don't want to start shelling out thousands on mega primes!

So I guess that brings me back to whether I'm better off buying a 100-400L and possibly a 1.4x extender or if I should treat myself to the 7D. As I said, I think it's a matter of which comes first as opposed to one or the other.

Also, nobody seems to have any comment on whether buying a US spec one from a UK based seller is worth the saving (approx £200) over buying a UK spec camera. Surely someone must have a view (never been on a forum where people don't!)

Re: your comment on buying FF compatible lenses as opposed to EF-S/crop ones, I guess I'm swayed in that I'm tending to buy L lenses as I'm 'sold' on the 'quality' marketing, so will generally end up with EF lenses. I did buy the Tokina lens which is essentially a crop lens (although I think it also works from 17 or 19mm on FF), but bought that in the US quite a bit cheaper than you can get it here in the UK. That also gives me the extra wide angle that the 24-105 doesn't. The 24-105 really is a great lens - no desire to let it go or swap it for another.

BTW - Hoppy - given that we're both north of the Watford Gap, I think we're both officially classed as northerners!

 

[HoppyUK]

Right - I'm starting to get confused now but I guess that's what forums do to you!

I take the point re: FF and sharpness, but I also like my reach so think I'm going to stay crop for the time being as I don't want to start shelling out thousands on mega primes!

So I guess that brings me back to whether I'm better off buying a 100-400L and possibly a 1.4x extender or if I should treat myself to the 7D. As I said, I think it's a matter of which comes first as opposed to one or the other.

Also, nobody seems to have any comment on whether buying a US spec one from a UK based seller is worth the saving (approx £200) over buying a UK spec camera. Surely someone must have a view (never been on a forum where people don't!)

Re: your comment on buying FF compatible lenses as opposed to EF-S/crop ones, I guess I'm swayed in that I'm tending to buy L lenses as I'm 'sold' on the 'quality' marketing, so will generally end up with EF lenses. I did buy the Tokina lens which is essentially a crop lens (although I think it also works from 17 or 19mm on FF), but bought that in the US quite a bit cheaper than you can get it here in the UK. That also gives me the extra wide angle that the 24-105 doesn't. The 24-105 really is a great lens - no desire to let it go or swap it for another.

BTW - Hoppy - given that we're both north of the Watford Gap, I think we're both officially classed as northerners!

Go with the 7D. What you would gain in quality with a 5D2, you might never notice. But you will definitely miss the reach.

And nobody ever regrets getting the 100-400L. Forget the 1.4x extender though - it won't AF as you'll be at 560mm f/8 and AF stops working above f/5.6 but that's a heck of a lot of reach anyway.

Don't dimiss EF-S lenses. They are designed for crop format. EF are designed for full frame and you are throwing away most of the image they deliver on a crop camera. They can still be excellent of course, but EF-S can be at least as good optically, and usually have a better spec. However, the EF-S upsides diminish dramatically at longer focal lengths, which is why EF-S are all on the short side.

I wouldn't hesitate to buy from Kerso, if that's who you mean. I have bought from him and no doubt will again. I was going to buy the 5D2 from him but at the time his prices had just been hit by the exchange rate and there wasn't a huge saving. Also, on cameras, although I don't think there are any UK warranty worries, I did wonder if the resale value might be hit with a body that doesn't have a big CE sticker on the bottom. Just a thought.