Is there such a thing as art photography?

TimHughes said:
I see what you're saying but that's a bit harsh, no? A structure to analyze and interpret is a helpful thing?
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Harsh, yes, sorry about that Tim - but the structural approach, whilst not wasted, never addressed the core issue of how we might experience art directly - it was to do with 'thinking about' (which is retrospective), rather than 'experiencing' which happens live in real time.
 
myotis said:
But thanks for the pointer, it's obviously going to be an interesting, but difficult, read.
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I'm not suggesting that it's a book that I fully understand, and you may do better than me - but it was an eye-opener for me that I've never forgotten.
 
droj said:
I'm not suggesting that it's a book that I fully understand, and you may do better than me - but it was an eye-opener for me that I've never forgotten.
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I think the author anticipated us both as readers, for the intro explains that even if you don't understand everything in the book, you will still get value from it :)
 
Ed Sutton said:
1) Why should art need an objective assessment?

2) Art isn't about pleasing people.
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A guy I know has an MA in Photography. He is very arty and expects many to dislike his work. The only thing he does hate is having his work ignored. Critical comments suggests that the viewer has looked at his work and formed an opinion. I find some of his photographs challenging but some of them are brilliant but the next person would group them differently.

He did try to encourage me to sign up for the MA on my retirement but as a scientist, I did not feel I would be comfortable with many aspects of the course. However, I accept that the most successful photographer in my Club are Artists. I am not sure if they call themselves artists (probably) but their colleagues do. They may struggle sometimes with the technology but tend to learn enough to do what they want. These artistic photographers see a picture in a scene that others miss.

Dave
 
Ed Sutton said:
1) Why should art need an objective assessment?
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It doesn't but if you're going to pretend that art can be assessed then it can only be assessed objectively or subjectively.
Ed Sutton said:
2) Art isn't about pleasing people.
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It is if you're going to claim that art can be assessed. If you don't claim that art can be assessed, then whether it should be about pleasing people becomes a decision for the creator.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
if you're going to pretend that art can be assessed then it can only be assessed objectively or subjectively
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That's akin to saying that things can only be black or white. What happened to colour? There's a spectrum - hybrids thrive in it!

Of course art can be assessed. And pleasure might be an element of that, but is hardly a core component. I think that an arbiter is that some sort of revelation has occurred - for both creator and receiver, hopefully (not that comprises a whole summary of the business).
 
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droj said:
That's akin to saying that things can only be black or white.
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Many things are binary. I happen to think this is one of them.

I am, of course, open to persuasion otherwise, if you have some reasoned arguments to offer.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Many things are binary. I happen to think this is one of them.

I am, of course, open to persuasion otherwise, if you have some reasoned arguments to offer.
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Check out the plonky wikihow guide to assessing art linked above, it provides a structure that combines objective and subjective elements. It does this because "While no two people will experience the same reaction to a work of art, or interpret it the same way, there are a few basic guidelines you can follow to achieve a thoughtful, thorough critique."
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Many things are binary. I happen to think this is one of them.

I am, of course, open to persuasion otherwise, if you have some reasoned arguments to offer.
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I would be interested in some other binary examples, I'm much more in the "nothing is black and white" camp,

But then I don't recognise the idea that experts in art, judge art on a like/don't like basis, if that is what you mean by binary. In the books and documentaries I've seen on art, liking something has never been part of the argument justify the value (not monetary) placed on art.

But you wouldn't expect that , most of these books/documentaries are from people with academic backgrounds in art, who are used to making reasoned and objective arguments with colleagues who are likely to have different, to very different, views to their own. No one is going to put any weight into an argument of "liking it"

In my experience, people with arts backgrounds are very good at making reasoned and logical arguments, I learnt far more about critical thinking and argument at University from my single Philosophy module than all my science modules added together. And, my experiences since leaving University has reinforced this idea of arts subjects superiority. I think its possibly because, as scientists, we rely too much on the numbers and don't always put enough effort into the argument; possibly believing the numbers make the argument obvious.

The Challenger Disaster in 1986 is a good example of this, where it was predicted with considerable confidence, but the scientists failed to put across a good enough argument to stop it going ahead.

But back on topic, I gave some examples of non-binary "marking" methods for both science (statistics) and photography university level assignments, which, like all marking I am aware of, uses an objective structure to provide a framework for the unavoidable subjective/professional judgement nature of marking for exams and assignments, whether they are from the sciences or the arts.

www.talkphotography.co.uk

Is there such a thing as art photography?

there is a difference between expressing opinions about a presented work or expressed opinions on one hand and personal attacks.This is true. However, I don't think there have been any personal attacks in this thread. Some strongly expressed opinions, yes, but my experience of this site is...
www.talkphotography.co.uk www.talkphotography.co.uk

I know that exam marking isn't the same as the wider assessment of art, but, but it's still relevant as an example of the types of thought processes available.
 
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myotis said:
In my experience, people with arts backgrounds are very good at making reasoned and logical arguments, I learnt far more about critical thinking and argument at University from my single Philosophy module than all my science modules added together. And, my experiences since leaving University has reinforced this idea of arts subjects superiority.
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:)
 
myotis said:
I would be interested in some other binary examples, I'm much more in the "nothing is black and white" camp,
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Some real world examples of binary...
  • This torch is on/off.
  • My result agrees/disagrees with your result.
  • The temperature in this room is the same as/different to the temperature in that room.
  • Your account is adequate/too low to make that transfer.
  • He is late/on time for the start of his shift.
  • That wheel's diameter is in/out of tolerance.
I could go on but it would be silly... :naughty:
 
TimHughes said:
"While no two people will experience the same reaction to a work of art, or interpret it the same way, there are a few basic guidelines you can follow to achieve a thoughtful, thorough critique."
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That sounds pretty much like the sort of thing that appeared in the "Camera Club" columns of various magazines.

It disappeared in the 1960s, when the readership got younger. I was there at the time and we had stopped believing that there were "superior" people who "knew what we should like." Interestingly, the coy nudes, portraits of bearded old sailors and chocolate box photos of "picturesque" tumbledown slum cottages disappeared at much the same time. :naughty:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Some real world examples of binary...
  • This torch is on/off.
  • My result agrees/disagrees with your result.
  • The temperature in this room is the same as/different to the temperature in that room.
  • Your account is adequate/too low to make that transfer.
  • He is late/on time for the start of his shift.
  • That wheel's diameter is in/out of tolerance.
I could go on but it would be silly... :naughty:
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This lens is naked / has a UV filter.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Some real world examples of binary...
  • This torch is on/off.
  • My result agrees/disagrees with your result.
  • The temperature in this room is the same as/different to the temperature in that room.
  • Your account is adequate/too low to make that transfer.
  • He is late/on time for the start of his shift.
  • That wheel's diameter is in/out of tolerance.
I could go on but it would be silly... :naughty:
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The cat in the box is alive and dead. :coat:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Some real world examples of binary...
  • This torch is on/off.
  • My result agrees/disagrees with your result.
  • The temperature in this room is the same as/different to the temperature in that room.
  • Your account is adequate/too low to make that transfer.
  • He is late/on time for the start of his shift.
  • That wheel's diameter is in/out of tolerance.
I could go on but it would be silly... :naughty:
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OK,

  • This torch is on/off.
What about a torch that is on, but without a battery, it may well be on but is still serving no useful purpose
  • My result agrees/disagrees with your result.
Wearing my statistician hat that means nothing. Often (far more often than most people realise) results appear to disagree or agree but when you dig into it they weren't measuring/assessing the same thing or there is an easily discovered reason to discredit the agreement/disagreement.
  • The temperature in this room is the same as/different to the temperature in that room.
Depends on the calibration of the thermometers, the scale and precision of the measurements, and room temperatures are different depending on where you measure them from
  • Your account is adequate/too low to make that transfer.
I'll give you that one, but I've had a similar situation (or my wife has) when transferring money between accounts with the same bank, and she got a message that the money wasn't available, and that it had been transferred at almost the same instance
  • He is late/on time for the start of his shift.
Or maybe he had actually arranged a day off that had been forgotten about
  • That wheel's diameter is in/out of tolerance.
Or maybe the tool used to make the measurement has developed a fault, or there has been a change in the tolerances needed for that specific wheel because the of the type of material used to make it.

But I agree this is silly and I don't think it's worth you trying to come up with more and more ingenious examples and me spending more and more time trying to counter them.

We are obviously just reflecting our life experiences. I am used to problem solving in multi-disciplinary teams, where each discipline will suggest a solution only for the other disciplines to point out why it won’t work. On one example from the Environment Agency, we got a list of strict do's and don'ts from the EA flood defence team, that was almost the exact opposite of the strict do's and don'ts list we got from the EA Nature conservation team.

I just never expect things to be a simple yes/no; good/bad; best/worst, type question or answer.
 
But is it deaf?
 
myotis said:
But I agree this is silly
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  1. If there's no battery in a torch, then it's off.
  2. If two answers don't agree the non-agreement is a fact.
  3. A temperature is a number. It can only be the same as another number or not.
  4. Everyone forgetting about the day off doesn't alter the fact that he's late arriving - the reason is irrelevant.
  5. Why the wheel is out of tolerance is a whole different question.
Hence: you're quite right to say this is silly, because all your arguments against the given examples being binary are specious.

Shall we discuss the number of angels dancing on the head of a pin while we're at it? :tumbleweed:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Hence: you're quite right to say this is silly, because all your arguments against the given examples being binary are specious.
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We obviously need to just agree to disagree, as I am only turning your examples into real world situations, which is how I think they should be judged.
 
myotis said:
We obviously need to just agree to disagree, as I am only turning your examples into real world situations, which is how I think they should be judged.
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The examples I gave are all real world situations that people encounter every day. It's probably best not to over egg the pudding in these discussions as it undermines the validity of your argument. :thinking:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
The examples I gave are all real world situations that people encounter every day.
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They are and they are also, to varying degrees, good examples of how inappropriate and misleading binary decisions can be. There are situations where the practicality of a binary decision is desirable, but they carry very little information, and can easily be misleading, or just wrong.

But people like binary choices because it makes decisions easy. For example, In spite of being discredited decades ago, many scientists still use meaningless statistical significance testing, because it allows easy and rapid conclusions to be drawn.

Reducing things to a binary decision nearly always hides something more complex and nuanced. It was this I was trying to illustrate in my initial response, and I don't agree with any of your rebuttals.

Maybe it's because I live in a complex world of science and statistics, where I am (or was before retiring) constantly battling through complexity to try and turn data into practical decisions, that I just see these things differently. I certainly don't see numbers or "facts" as the absolutes that you seem to.

I doubt we are ever going to agree. You seem to be more focussed on the simplicity of binary decision making where I am more concerned about the consequences, and implications of a binary approach.
 
myotis said:
They are and they are also, to varying degrees, good examples of how inappropriate and misleading binary decisions can be.
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That just comes across as facile and is clearly erroneous. Sometimes, an apple really is just an apple.
myotis said:
I doubt we are ever going to agree. You seem to be more focussed on the simplicity of binary decision making where I am more concerned about the consequences, and implications of a binary approach.
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It's possible that I'm "spoiled" by 35 years of building practical computing systems, where the world has to be brought down to "yes or no". Then again, perhaps I achieved some moderate success in that field because the world so often is simple, if you don't pretend otherwise.
 
sirch said:
In what way is the digital representation of a floating point number "yes or no"?
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Obviously, it isn't, then again, nor is an ASCII representation of a character.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
It's possible that I'm "spoiled" by 35 years of building practical computing systems, where the world has to be brought down to "yes or no". Then again, perhaps I achieved some moderate success in that field because the world so often is simple, if you don't pretend otherwise.
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As I said in another post, we are all products of our experiences, and I was just trying to explain where I was coming from

I've had thirty years of teaching, writing about and providing consultancy on Environmental Impacts, statistics and decisions science. The consultancy was mainly for the construction industry (roads and bridges), but it also included other industries.

Problems were complex, had multiple conflicting priorities (social, economic and environmental) and there could be serious financial and legal implication for the client if I gave the wrong advice.

After about 10 years in consultancy I realised the need for formal decision making processes and began studying decision science. Decision Science covers numerical decision making techniques, as well as things like the psychology behind decision making and risk taking.

All too often people jump into thinking about the solutions without fully understanding the problem. So the key skill I brought to a problem was in helping the client use various techniques to identify the "real" problem before providing a structured approach to resolving it. A major part of this is separating the important problems from the unimportant ones, or to use your analogy to separate the real apples from the imposter apples.

I've spent a career working in situations where I have needed to simplify the complex, whether its been in my consultancy work or my teaching. In both roles, I've learned not to pretend things are simple when they aren't, even though the goal is always to make them as simple as possible.
 
myotis said:
In both roles, I've learned not to pretend things are simple when they aren't, even though the goal is always to make them as simple as possible.
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In that, our experiences are parallel.

Much of my work was converting analogue information on paper into digital data that would provide the same or more information. In the '80s and '90s, that just wasn't practical with the storage and processing power available. Much of the work was simplifying the material that was going into the system and providing tools that could validate both the data and the relationships.

As storage and power prices dropped it didn't become easier, because the customers wanted more and more facilities with ever greater data volumes. We knew more and more and found we could satisfy fewer and fewer of the ever increasing demands. I sometimes wonder at how we actually got those systems into operation! :thinking:
 
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It's interesting how this thread developed organically as it did - and surprisingly since the term art was involved, without any great acrimony - and how the transatlantic trumpet of its OP seems to have gone quiet. And now, perhaps, it's entered a well-earned sleep ...
 
But just before the nap, I saw this on a tree below a piece of 'art' and thought it might be of interest in the thread.

IMG_20210708_214402.jpg
 
The phrase SUPER DOOPER in the heading of that poster reminds me of a couple with a dog seen on a walk yesterday where the woman (yes I know that these days not all couples include a woman or a man, & that there are a thousand shades of sexual identity all denoted by impenetrable acronyms) - but where the woman, as it happened, was carrying a black plastic pouch dangling from one hand.

Now when you see a thing like that, it's hard not to imagine the contents of the pouch ...
 
droj said:
and how the transatlantic trumpet of its OP seems to have gone quiet.
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He's still logging in and trying his "luck" elsewhere.
 
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