Is this really the case?

DaveS2

DaveS2

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I'm looking to buy a new Canon 70-300 f/4-5.6 L IS USM lens, and note that play.com are offering this item at £279 cheaper than the UK High St price, which is of course a significant saving.

http://www.play.com/stores/SpencerMann/listing/657193795

The advert states that the product comes with a Canon UK/European warranty, which implies that its not a 'grey import'.

Anyone had any experience in dealing with this company, and is the statement:

"BRAND NEW - 12 month Canon UK / European warranty"

genuine?

Dave
 
It's a seller on the play marketplace. I presume this is the same seller:
http://www.spencermann.com

If they are a UK seller they are breaking all the rules with the website.

Edit:
It would appear the site isn't a UK site
SPENCERMANN.COM(Registered)

Domain Name: SPENCERMANN.COM
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2013-03-25 10:36:30
Creation Date: 2012-03-30 10:19:46
Registrar Expiration Date: 2014-03-30 10:19:46
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC

Domain Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Domain Status: clientRenewProhibited
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Domain Status: clientUpdateProhibited

Registrant Name: Registration Private
Registrant Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Registrant Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Registrant Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Registrant City: Scottsdale
Registrant State/Province: Arizona
Registrant Postal Code: 85260
Registrant Country: United States

Admin Name: Registration Private
Admin Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Admin Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Admin Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Admin City: Scottsdale
Admin State/Province: Arizona
Admin Postal Code: 85260
Admin Country: United States
Admin Phone: (480) 624-2599
Admin Fax: (480) 624-2598
Admin Email: SPENCERMANN.COM@domainsbyproxy.com

Tech Name: Registration Private
Tech Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Tech Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Tech Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Tech City: Scottsdale
Tech State/Province: Arizona
Tech Postal Code: 85260
Tech Country: United States
Tech Phone: (480) 624-2599
Tech Fax: (480) 624-2598
Tech Email: SPENCERMANN.COM@domainsbyproxy.com

Name Server: NS0.SERVE.CO.UK
Name Server: NS0.SERVE.NET.UK

The data contained in GoDaddy.com, LLC's WHOIS database,
while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is"
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
DaveS2 said:
Hi Dave

Yes, it is the same seller.

There also seems to be some link with Sunley Electronics (http://sunleyelectronics.com/acatal..._IS_USM.html?gclid=COvA3N28xroCFSXItAodIFAA0g), as both goods bought from Spencer Mann, if needed to be returned, have to be sent to the address of Sunley Electronics in Staffordshire.

It all seems a bit 'fishy' to me.:thinking:

Dave
Click to expand...

I agree, a lack of a UK phone number (or physical company details) always raises an alarm. For the kind of money you are spending I would like elsewhere (if it was me), even if it was a reputable grey retailer.
 
There's another thread in the shopping section.. for me, they're too cheap and not providing enough information as a seller to be believable. Some of their prices are lower than DR and OSD. Everything suggests grey imports from HK. A quick Google search shows that members at Overclockers received Hong Kong/Singapore/Malaysian spec Mac Book Air models with US keyboards sold as UK models/stock by this seller.

Given that he's selling the 6D for £100 less than any other UK dealer, and the 5Diii for £300 less.. that seems too good to be true for UK models, tax paid.
 
Panamoz is doing it at 845(802 by BT) with (I believe) a 3 year replacement warranty.
 
Isn't Play.com based in Jersey, which would still qualify for a UK warranty but they don't have the same VAT and Tax laws which might be the reason it's being advertised cheaper than the mainland. I don't know how it would work for "Spencer Mann" actually listing it though as their address is listed as Burton Upon Trent, Staffs. Seems a bit dodgy to be honest, I'd go for it at Panamoz as Magnus suggests, I've used them and got fantastic service and I've even had fantastic service when I had a problem with a lens and returned it under warranty. After only 11 days after contacting them I had another brand new lens delivered at my door, probably better service than most UK sellers.
 
Play.com is indeed based in Jersey, which is part of the UK. However, I'm not sure how SpencerMann fits into their equation.

I have in the past, bought from HDEW, who are of course 'Grey Importers', and do not claim that the Canon products they sell are covered by a Canon UK warranty.

They do however, offer their own warranty, and use a approved Canon repairer to carry out any repair work.

The 'bottom line' is that after 12 months the difference between having bought 'grey' and Canon UK stock, is that with the 'grey' route the saving becomes real.

The thing that always concerns me, is that a UK based company can import the products directly from the Far East, sell them several hundred pounds cheaper than the 'mainline' UK companies, and still make a profit.

I can only hazard a guess, that Canon UK get their stock from Canon Europe (the 'middle man'), who add their 'mark up', before Canon UK add theirs, and then we as the 'end user' have to 'pick up the tab'.

I'm pretty sure that while Canon cameras have a country/region specific warranty, their lenses have a worldwide warranty.

I guess the question is, are we 'the UK customer' being 'ripped off' ?

Dave
 
Last edited:
DaveS2 said:
I'm pretty sure that while Canon cameras have a country/region specific warranty, their lenses have a worldwide warranty.

I guess the question is, are we 'the UK customer' being 'ripped off' ?

Dave
Click to expand...

Not anymore, all Canon equipment comes with a Euro warranty now.
 
Very interesting Charlie, and the 'plot thickens'

I'll not be going anywhere near Sunley Electronics. :nono:

Dave
 
DaveS2 said:
Play.com is indeed based in Jersey, which is part of the UK. However, I'm not sure how SpencerMann fits into their equation.

I have in the past, bought from HDEW, who are of course 'Grey Importers', and do not claim that the Canon products they sell are covered by a Canon UK warranty.

They do however, offer their own warranty, and use a approved Canon repairer to carry out any repair work.

The 'bottom line' is that after 12 months the difference between having bought 'grey' and Canon UK stock, is that with the 'grey' route the saving becomes real.

The thing that always concerns me, is that a UK based company can import the products directly from the Far East, sell them several hundred pounds cheaper than the 'mainline' UK companies, and still make a profit.

I can only hazard a guess, that Canon UK get their stock from Canon Europe (the 'middle man'), who add their 'mark up', before Canon UK add theirs, and then we as the 'end user' have to 'pick up the tab'.

I'm pretty sure that while Canon cameras have a country/region specific warranty, their lenses have a worldwide warranty.

I guess the question is, are we 'the UK customer' being 'ripped off' ?

Dave
Click to expand...
If you look at the prices of the gear worldwide (without taxes and duties), you'll see there's nowhere near the difference you believe (there's a small discount in some emerging markets).

And the way tax is charged / paid varies around the world - in some US states you carry on paying business taxes for the gear you are using, but the up front price might look attractive.
 
I don't doubt that Phil, but it doesn't answer why a company like HDEW for example, can import the identical product, sell it with all taxes and duties paid', at several hundred pounds cheaper that other UK dealers, and still make a profit.

Dave
 
DaveS2 said:
I don't doubt that Phil, but it doesn't answer why a company like HDEW for example, can import the identical product, sell it with all taxes and duties paid', at several hundred pounds cheaper that other UK dealers, and still make a profit.

Dave
Click to expand...
I thought I had...
Phil V said:
(there's a small discount in some emerging markets).
Click to expand...

I also thought there are still question marks over their tax policies?
 
In theory, a business whose terms and conditions create a contract where the purchaser takes all liability for the importation of the goods and the apparent importer only contractually acts as agent/introducer could engineneer a situation where they were only liable for VAT on the agents fee.

I have in the past requested clarification as to what a VAT invoice from some UK-based importers would show - but none of them has responded.

On an item imported for £900 and sold for £1200 to a UK customer, would the invoice show the VAT paid as £220 or £60?
 
I bought my Canon 24-105L from HDEW ( a grey importer) located in the UK.

The invoice shows that they are VAT registered, and that they charged me 20% VAT on top of the base-price of the lens.

Dave
 
DaveS2 said:
I bought my Canon 24-105L from HDEW ( a grey importer) located in the UK.

The invoice shows that they are VAT registered, and that they charged me 20% VAT on top of the base-price of the lens.

Dave
Click to expand...
I bet you had to ask for the VAT invoice, though?

As Phil says, there are question marks over their tax compliance. Being registered for VAT is not the same as actually charging and declaring VAT and paying it to HMRC.
 
Last edited:
StewartR said:
I bet you had to ask for the VAT invoice, though?

As Phil says, there are question marks over their tax compliance. Being registered for VAT is not the same as actually charging and declaring VAT and paying it to HMRC.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree, their pricing structure probably only works as long as only a minority of buyers ask for vat invoices.
 
Dave1 said:
I tend to agree, their pricing structure probably only works as long as only a minority of buyers ask for vat invoices.
Click to expand...

If that is the case, I can't see how it's a legal structure. VAT isn't optional once you're registered, and it would be illegal to provide a VAT invoice if you're not registered. And the VAT invoice must reflect the actual VAT paid on the transaction.

Even if there's a cunning plan based on the margin scheme (used goods), that couldn't legally show VAT on the full value.

And it's more than one importer this applies to.
 
StewartR said:
I bet you had to ask for the VAT invoice, though?
Click to expand...

No I didn't, it was a proper headed invoice, with the company name and address, VAT registration number, with the base-price and the VAT (at 20%) shown separately, above the total purchase price.

Before purchase, I spoke to them on the telephone to ask how the warranty process worked, and was told that they used a specific Canon authorised repairer in Scotland, and was provided with the company name and address, which I was able to verify.

I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use HDEW again.

I would love to support the High Street shops, but am not going to spend several hundred pounds more, to do so.

Its not the High Street retailers that are to blame, as I understand that their margins are quite small. The problem lays further back in the supply chain IMO. Goods imported into the European based arm of the company (the Middle Man), who add their mark up, before being shipped to the UK arm of the company, who then add their mark up, before selling on to the High Street retailer.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, but this is how I think the system works.

The Grey importer, buys directly from the Far East, before selling onto us, the customer.

Dave
 
Last edited:
Alastair said:
If that is the case, I can't see how it's a legal structure. VAT isn't optional once you're registered, and it would be illegal to provide a VAT invoice if you're not registered. And the VAT invoice must reflect the actual VAT paid on the transaction.

Even if there's a cunning plan based on the margin scheme (used goods), that couldn't legally show VAT on the full value.

And it's more than one importer this applies to.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be that hard, they bring in 10 units, declare 5 to HMRC and hope no more than 5 buyers want a vat invoice. The other 5 units get channeled through an alternative system in house.

All just supposition of course, perhaps HDEW really do work on a negative profit margin for their sales.
 
Dave1 said:
It wouldn't be that hard, they bring in 10 units, declare 5 to HMRC and hope no more than 5 buyers want a vat invoice. The other 5 units get channeled through an alternative system in house.
Click to expand...

Simple but still not legal. I'm VAT registered (voluntarily, not because of turnover) and I can't pick and choose which clients do and don't pay VAT. They all do.

The quarterly VAT return is quite clear that all imports would legally need to be declared, not pick and choose.

Although it raises a question over what I'd have to do if I was also a weekend-warrior with a camera on-the-side. Unlike the import example, that would be the case of two independent business activities with no commercial ink.
 
Alastair said:
Simple but still not legal. I'm VAT registered (voluntarily, not because of turnover) and I can't pick and choose which clients do and don't pay VAT. They all do.

The quarterly VAT return is quite clear that all imports would legally need to be declared, not pick and choose.

Although it raises a question over what I'd have to do if I was also a weekend-warrior with a camera on-the-side. Unlike the import example, that would be the case of two independent business activities with no commercial ink.
Click to expand...

I totally agree, but it would explain how a business in the uk could be personally importing grey stock and somehow still being 15-20% cheaper than shops selling genuine Euro/UK stock.

Goods in Hong Kong aren't that much cheaper, and HK price plus import duty and vat becomes a similar price to UK pricing. Look at DigitalRev's price, and then add the duty and vat, and compare to someone like WEX.
 
Dave1 said:
Goods in Hong Kong aren't that much cheaper, and HK price plus import duty and vat becomes a similar price to UK pricing. Look at DigitalRev's price, and then add the duty and vat, and compare to someone like WEX.
Click to expand...
I wish I'd said that...

Oh wait... :whistling:
Phil V said:
If you look at the prices of the gear worldwide (without taxes and duties), you'll see there's nowhere near the difference you believe (there's a small discount in some emerging markets)...
Click to expand...

:D
 
DaveS2 said:
No I didn't, it was a proper headed invoice, with the company name and address, VAT registration number, with the base-price and the VAT (at 20%) shown separately, above the total purchase price.
Click to expand...

That's very interesting. (Not the contents of the invoice, but the fact that they sent you one without you asking.) Previous reports on this forum have implied that HDEW only send out VAT invoices when customers ask for them. And I've seen evidence that the directors of HDEW also control other companies selling the same types of items which are clearly (and illegally) not VAT registered. That obviously creates an opportunity for them to be a bit creative with the accounting. Whether or not they actually do that is of course impossible to say unless you have access to their books, which I don't. But of they are 100% legal, then it would appear that they are somehow managing to buy their equipment from Canon cheaper than every other retailer in the world.


DaveS2 said:
I would love to support the High Street shops, but am not going to spend several hundred pounds more, to do so.

Its not the High Street retailers that are to blame, as I understand that their margins are quite small. The problem lays further back in the supply chain IMO. Goods imported into the European based arm of the company (the Middle Man), who add their mark up, before being shipped to the UK arm of the company, who then add their mark up, before selling on to the High Street retailer.

Of course, I could be totally wrong, but this is how I think the system works.

The Grey importer, buys directly from the Far East, before selling onto us, the customer.
Click to expand...
I think you are totally wrong, unfortunately. The "mark up" is VAT and import duty, pure and simple. The UK market for photographic equipment is probably the most competitive in the world and there is no LEGAL way to significantly undercut the mainstream retailers.
 
StewartR said:
I think you are totally wrong, unfortunately. The "mark up" is VAT and import duty, pure and simple. The UK market for photographic equipment is probably the most competitive in the world and there is no LEGAL way to significantly undercut the mainstream retailers.
Click to expand...

Stewart, I really don't think anyone truly believes the "it's a rip off Britain mark up" unless they really can't do maths or don't want to face the reality, it's fairly simple to take the HK price of a lens, and add 6% and then add 20% and realise that is going to be pretty similar (or slightly more expensive) than the approximate UK selling price.
 
Dave1 said:
Edit:
It would appear the site isn't a UK site

SPENCERMANN.COM(Registered)

Domain Name: SPENCERMANN.COM
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2013-03-25 10:36:30
Creation Date: 2012-03-30 10:19:46
Registrar Expiration Date: 2014-03-30 10:19:46
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC

Domain Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Domain Status: clientRenewProhibited
Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited
Domain Status: clientUpdateProhibited

Registrant Name: Registration Private
Registrant Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Registrant Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Registrant Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Registrant City: Scottsdale
Registrant State/Province: Arizona
Registrant Postal Code: 85260
Registrant Country: United States

Admin Name: Registration Private
Admin Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Admin Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Admin Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Admin City: Scottsdale
Admin State/Province: Arizona
Admin Postal Code: 85260
Admin Country: United States
Admin Phone: (480) 624-2599
Admin Fax: (480) 624-2598
Admin Email: SPENCERMANN.COM@domainsbyproxy.com

Tech Name: Registration Private
Tech Organization: Domains By Proxy, LLC
Tech Street: DomainsByProxy.com
Tech Street: 14747 N Northsight Blvd Suite 111, PMB 309
Tech City: Scottsdale
Tech State/Province: Arizona
Tech Postal Code: 85260
Tech Country: United States
Tech Phone: (480) 624-2599
Tech Fax: (480) 624-2598
Tech Email: SPENCERMANN.COM@domainsbyproxy.com

Name Server: NS0.SERVE.CO.UK
Name Server: NS0.SERVE.NET.UK

The data contained in GoDaddy.com, LLC's WHOIS database,
while believed by the company to be reliable, is provided "as is"
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Just wondering how you worked out it is not a UK site from that info?
 
The registrant information is in Arizona would be the giveaway
 
No that's Domains By Proxy, LLC who are in Arizona - they are a domain privacy service who people use if they want to hide who really owns a domain - why a legitimate business would do this I don't know as it only makes them look dodgy. The owner of that domain could be anywhere in the world but as they have used a proxy service to hide their whoisinfo it's impossible to find out.
 
Is it not the case that Canon lenses have a worldwide warranty and that it is only body warranties that are regional?
 
Bawbee said:
Is it not the case that Canon lenses have a worldwide warranty and that it is only body warranties that are regional?
Click to expand...

No, Canon have a EU warranty policy on all items now, has been for quite some time.
 
Yep, hence 'grey imports' being an issue if you want the full warranty...
 
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