Jeff as cough no LCD and av mode

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mart77

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So I was reading something jeff had said in an interview, he said he shoots without reviewing the LCD infant he has it turned off ie review time is off, instead he simply meters a neutral part of the room in aperture priority and locks the exposure and then shoots.

So I tried this but where I meter, in many plac I feel are neutral I get wildly varying results. I wanted to give this more of a go to test it fully out of interest. Has anyone tried this with more success or have any tips for doing this well?

Thanks
 
Jayst84 said:
Practice.
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+1

Jeff has 20+ years of experience, grew up on film cameras where there were no review screens, and has shot 100s of weddings.

You don't get that mastery of your equipment and light just by listening to an interview.

The reason he has his review off is because he *can* spot a neutral tone, or if he wants a low key image/silhouette an appropriate area to meter from.

Use your review & histogram to train yourself until you master it, or just accept that some people can, and use their tools one way, and some people don't all the time.

Jeff uses his cameras that way because it suits his style, and matches his skill level. You could get similar results with the review screen and histogram on. it isn't a deal breaker...
 
I imagine the key to this technique, apart from the experience required, is to make sure you are using spot (or possibly partial) metering so that you can indeed target a neutral tone and ignore any peripheral nonsense within the frame.

I use spot metering a lot, but not necessarily to target a "neutral" tone. As often as not I will meter from my highlight tones and set them to the right hand edge of the histogram.

Here is a little illustration of how the tones vary, stop by stop, with "middle grey" in the middle and ranging from -4 stops in the top left to +4 stops in the bottom right. If you look at a scene you can pick any tone you like, but you need to be able to figure out whereabouts to position that tone within the -4 to +4 range. More realistically it will be -3 to +3 in practice since that's the limit of most camera meters.

20110412_171648_000.jpg



It's probably worth emphasising the modest difference between the brightness at +3 vs +4. This is because at +3 the image is close to clipping point and +4 takes it beyond clipping. This means the image cannot become any brighter no matter how many more stops of light I add. This is why I find it so useful to meter highlights rather than mid tones and to place the highlights accurately at the right hand edge of the histogram by metering them at +3, allowing a small margin for error whilst minimising waste of useful dynamic range.
 
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I wonder if this term 'neutral tone' is confusing things. It doesn't have to be neutral as in plain grey, it has to have a known brightness - usually mid-grey/18% grey. Grass is usually around that, lightish tarmac, concrete, maybe a brick wall.

But as Tim says, it doesn't even have to be a mid-tone. Spot metering off white and then adding 3 stops (or whatever you experience tells you) is another popular technique.
 
thanks all of you that is great all read and taken onboard, i will try it more im not sure its for me though but maybe.
 
I shot a project exclusively on film in March, i employed my om-10 which uses center weighted metering and is also aperture priority. It performed with impeccable results, and i didn't have to chimp the once, very liberating!
I have shot with my lcd flipped round before and while it provided a certain "wait and see" element, i found getting around menus a bit of a pain.
My advice is if you want that element of excitement and that injection of skill then pick up a roll of 35 and something cheap to shoot it on and trust your intuition.
 
yes when I shot film - I don't see the point of not using the technology you have. Obviously Jeff has more experience than me but not to use the LCD to check is just a bit silly (I don't check every shot though).

This is the problem with "famous" photographers blogs - people read them as gosple and no one else is right. If you are happy with one method and it serves you right why bother changing.

mart77 said:
So I was reading something jeff had said in an interview, he said he shoots without reviewing the LCD infant he has it turned off ie review time is off, instead he simply meters a neutral part of the room in aperture priority and locks the exposure and then shoots.

So I tried this but where I meter, in many plac I feel are neutral I get wildly varying results. I wanted to give this more of a go to test it fully out of interest. Has anyone tried this with more success or have any tips for doing this well?

Thanks
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POAH said:
yes when I shot film - I don't see the point of not using the technology you have. Obviously Jeff has more experience than me but not to use the LCD to check is just a bit silly (I don't check every shot though).

This is the problem with "famous" photographers blogs - people read them as gosple and no one else is right. If you are happy with one method and it serves you right why bother changing.
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It had to happen eventually. For once I agree with POAH!
 
mart77 said:
and do you shoot in manual or aperture priority?
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99% of the time aperture priority,i know the dof i want in a photo,and hopefully i get a fast enought shutter speed,for the lens or any movment.

If not i push up the ISO.

Sometime it really nice to get home,and see your photos for the first time

:)
 
Like Simon I shoot AV 90% of the time (outdoors), I come from film and actually often use a similar method to Jeff's - if only I had his customers / talent / income.

I do use the LCD though - but I understand how liberating it could be to not use it.

I have said it before - but AV, TV, M or P make no real difference to anything. But understanding your meter is absolutely crucial to get the results you want to achieve. Using M often helps people feel they're connecting with their meter better but it's nonsense IMO. Using M will give consistent results quicker in unchanging conditions - Using a semi Auto mode will do the same in changeable ones, horses for courses.
 
i think the thing that did appeal to me a lot was the removal of the need to look at the lcd, i can imagine how nice that would be to just be able to shoot freely and not worry about the screen.

i suppose another option would be bracketed bursts in aperture priority of a stop either side, so exposures, would take up more space but i think that jeff has a really good point that we spend so much time looking at the back that we are thinking less about light and composition.
 
I can't see the sense in buying the technology and not using it to your advantage. When I shoot with my 60D half the time the screen is facing inwards, but I do flip it now and again to check the histagram mainly and occasionally to zoom in to see if I've got a particular area of the photo how I want it. With my 5D3 it's set to 2 seconds but again it's rare that I actually take much notice of it but I get the occasional glimpse of it when moving the camera away. I wouldn't want to go without it all the time though, besides it would be a nightmare going through all the menus if it wasn't there lol.
 
modchild said:
I can't see the sense in buying the technology and not using it to your advantage. When I shoot with my 60D half the time the screen is facing inwards, but I do flip it now and again to check the histagram mainly and occasionally to zoom in to see if I've got a particular area of the photo how I want it. With my 5D3 it's set to 2 seconds but again it's rare that I actually take much notice of it but I get the occasional glimpse of it when moving the camera away. I wouldn't want to go without it all the time though, besides it would be a nightmare going through all the menus if it wasn't there lol.
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I can see where your coming from,but then again most cameras have video in them,i have never used it.

And a lot of people like me came up from film SLR, so to me it was just a card now not film,the most useful thing i found about DSLR was i able to change ISO on the fly,i love that :)
 
modchild said:
I can't see the sense in buying the technology and not using it to your advantage.
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Jeff's point is simple.

As a documentary wedding photographer his primary goal is to capture fleeting moments during the day. As such his reputation lives and dies on spotting those moments to deliver the quality of coverage he is renowned for.

His advantage is his continuous observation of events unfolding before him, even more so than his skill in finding the best light and exposure to capture them.

If he looks at the screen all the time it is actually a disadvantage, not an advantage because he will be missing shots. The less he chimps the more he sees.
 
Guessing the correct exposure without review is one thing, but not reviewing images taken as you go along at a wedding is dangerous - people blink and images are ruined
 
simonblue said:
How did we used to get along film :D
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Yeah, that dumb Jeff Ascough, relying on outdated values like timing, understanding light and raw talent, rather than spraying and praying and chimping for insurance. The schmuck:lol:

It's worth remembering Jeff was still shooting film at weddings in recent memory.

Although I'm not sure how reading a scene and using a light meter can count as 'guessing':suspect:

And from a photography 'teacher':thinking:
 
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POAH said:
You bracketed exposures lol
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Yeah, the old BLF technique, though that's often impossible.

The way I used to do it was to spend ages checking the exposure first - spot off grass, palm of hand, incident reading, that kind of thing. Pro film also has/had the specific batch ISO on it too.

One job I did years ago was as assistant on shoot for Pedigree Chum, dogs running but light/clouds changing almost every second. My task was to stand at the subject position with an incident meter and shout the changes every half-stop :D

Then when we got back, run a clip test and push/pull the processing on the shoot.

Total PITA.
 
simonblue said:
How did we used to get along film :D
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Agree with you there, but if you've now got a tool to check why not use it? :thumbs:

This whole thing of not using the LCD nowadays sounds like some pretentious media spin BS to "make me better than everyone else" and unless you can do the same, you're crap :bonk:

POAH said:
yes when I shot film - I don't see the point of not using the technology you have. Obviously Jeff has more experience than me but not to use the LCD to check is just a bit silly (I don't check every shot though).

This is the problem with "famous" photographers blogs - people read them as gosple and no one else is right. If you are happy with one method and it serves you right why bother changing.
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+1
 
I think a lot of people must like the review time set to off. The default setting on the D3s is off. Surprised me a little, although I generally don't bother looking at the images when shooting either - maybe check the first few closely if in tricky lighting situations.

Gets a little annoying coming on after each shot with the camera at your eye too.
 
POAH said:
yes when I shot film - I don't see the point of not using the technology you have. Obviously Jeff has more experience than me but not to use the LCD to check is just a bit silly (I don't check every shot though).

This is the problem with "famous" photographers blogs - people read them as gosple and no one else is right. If you are happy with one method and it serves you right why bother changing.
Click to expand...

buckas said:
Agree with you there, but if you've now got a tool to check why not use it? :thumbs:

This whole thing of not using the LCD nowadays sounds like some pretentious media spin BS to "make me better than everyone else" and unless you can do the same, you're crap :bonk:
+1
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See what I read there is insecurity - Sorry guys, but no-one said that it's the only way to do it - or even the right way.:shake:
Someone just said they'd heard that someone (famous - but it makes no difference) shot in a certain way, and they were curious what would be the advantages?

To get so wound up about it is a bit - well funny!:nuts:

Most of us work in more or less the same way - we trust what we're shooting and we double check the histogram now and again - or some critical focus sometimes by zooming on the rear screen.

Jeff has some interesting things to say about lighting, composition and even his PP routine, however; for most people the reassurance of the rear screen far outweighs the loss of concentration on the subject - although I can see where he's coming from - I sometimes get lost in the people watching and forget I'm supposed to be photographing it.:bonk:

And there's still no 'guessing' going on - although Jeff is a very experienced photographer and I'd bet he could have an accurate guess at EV's - lots of old school guys can:cool: - but that's not what's being suggested here. Jeff's not turned the meter off - just the rear screen.;)
 
insecurity about what and who is wound up?

I just have no interest in what people rant about in blogs

Phil V said:
See what I read there is insecurity - Sorry guys, but no-one said that it's the only way to do it - or even the right way.:shake:
Someone just said they'd heard that someone (famous - but it makes no difference) shot in a certain way, and they were curious what would be the advantages?

To get so wound up about it is a bit - well funny!:nuts:

Most of us work in more or less the same way - we trust what we're shooting and we double check the histogram now and again - or some critical focus sometimes by zooming on the rear screen.

Jeff has some interesting things to say about lighting, composition and even his PP routine, however; for most people the reassurance of the rear screen far outweighs the loss of concentration on the subject - although I can see where he's coming from - I sometimes get lost in the people watching and forget I'm supposed to be photographing it.:bonk:

And there's still no 'guessing' going on - although Jeff is a very experienced photographer and I'd bet he could have an accurate guess at EV's - lots of old school guys can:cool: - but that's not what's being suggested here. Jeff's not turned the meter off - just the rear screen.;)
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I often turn the review off because I have taken to using back button focus. If I try to use the button again while the review is still on, the button serves to lock/protect the image rather than focusing.
 
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