1. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

    Messages:
    4,436
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    JUDGING FOR A CAMERA CLUB CAN BE A BIT TRICKY - and here's why...

    The requirement is for me to Judge with marks from 0-20 - sounds fair enough :)

    Except 20 is 1st place, 19 2nd place, 18 3rd place - so that's now a range of 0-17 - ok

    Except anything less than an 11 is insulting, and in fact its usual that a 12 is the lowest score unless the image is really poor

    So really I have a range of 12-17

    Oh and most members tell me they prefer a Judge not to give too many 15s & 16s as that suggests they are all of a similar standard - so - errrr :thinking:

    Anyone else see why this can be tricky? :LOL:

    Dave
     
    Manxmaid and yzfmike like this.
  2. Lindsay56

    Lindsay56

    Messages:
    158
    Name:
    Lindsay
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Sounds like a bit of a nightmare where no-one will be happy!
    Are you able to tell them to use a marking scheme devised by you, as you are clearly in some demand in this role? I'm thinking that if you award marks in several different aspects, eg x for composition, x for presentation, x for use of light, x for use of colour (or contrast/tone if B&W), etc, so that by the time the arithmetic is done, you appear to have given lots of consideration and value and feedback, whilst most/all can be happy they did well in some regard? I know it makes the job more involved, but maybe less easy to offend people? I've used similar weighted multi-factor valuation to carry out tender awards and maybe a similar approach can be used here to good effect?

    But in the end: if you can't take a joke, shouldn't have joined up! (only kidding)
     
    swanseamale47 likes this.
  3. StewartR

    StewartR Efrem Zimbalist Jr Advertiser

    Messages:
    11,578
    Name:
    Stewart
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Here's your problem.
    Be the judge who wasnt afraid to give single digit marks. They'll remember you forever.
     
  4. Marc

    Marc Mucky Rims Staff Member

    Messages:
    41,758
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    And probably never invite him back! :LOL:
     
  5. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic

    Messages:
    5,658
    Name:
    Terry
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Comparative judging seems pointless. especially when it is competitive.
    I understand appraisal and constructive criticism.. But then perhaps that is why I have nothing in common with the ethos of club photography.
    If they want marks, I would make them do that them selves on vote slips, and let them add them all up, to arrive a popular vote.
    However it is reasonable to chose a best in show and a reserve.
     
    sirch, StephenM and Bearair like this.
  6. Nawty

    Nawty

    Messages:
    6,252
    Name:
    Ned
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Win-win :D
     
  7. Nostromo

    Nostromo

    Messages:
    2,531
    Name:
    Dominic
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Judging at my club seems quite simple, feedback on all photos (obviously) then the judge, as he/she looks through each photo in turn will pull out the one's they feel warrent an extra look. Then they will award 3 commended, 2 highly commented then 1st, 2nd and 3rd.
     
  8. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

    Messages:
    4,436
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    To answer all at once lol

    The Judge is given the rules that the club wants to be Judged by, so whatever they ask for is what they get

    Several clubs are brave enough to allow the full range of 0-20, and in this case I often give below a 10 if that's what I think it deserves

    its also common to give a 0 if the images doesn't fit the theme, and I once gave three 0s on one night for this very reason - and they were ALL the SAME photographer!

    Its the comments that come with the Judging that makes the night for most members and this is where I try to be as positive as possible and give hints/tips for improvement, which is why I'm always asked back as many Judges just leave people miserable; trying to be helpful in one's crit is sadly 'refreshing'

    Clubs near me are increasingly going over to just a winner and a few merits rather than marks, and I feel this is they way forwards too; sadly, they still sometimes give you so many to Judge that you still can't make good comments for more than 30 secs per image, where that happens I always suggest they allow fewer entries so I can add more value

    It really is fun being a club Judge though, and I try to encourage everyone as much as possible :)

    Dave
     
  9. Box Brownie

    Box Brownie

    Messages:
    6,420
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Hmmm! If they are being that prescriptive it sounds like they want a trained poodle not a Judge.

    IMO this makes more sense ~ on the surmise that if there are 50 members and 35 entries let the members vote to produce the "order" and then the judges role is to "judge" on all relevant constructive critique and rank the top 5 of the member chosen pictures.

    The non-ranked ones get a C&C judges review.
     
  10. Wayne Els

    Wayne Els

    Messages:
    948
    Name:
    Wayne
    Edit My Images:
    No
    The problem with this, and one of the main reasons for using an external judge is impartiality. If you ever attend a club you will soon be able to have a good idea who shot to what.
     
    TheBigYin and cargo like this.
  11. wave01

    wave01

    Messages:
    1,445
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I think what most clubs like is a speed of scores between as you say 11-20. what they don't want is a clutch of votes around 15. so 16 and 17 are good pictures and you are leaving 18-20 for the the best pictures. may be you might get a joint first so scores them both 20. Best of luck
     
  12. viewfromthenorth

    viewfromthenorth

    Messages:
    2,637
    Name:
    Andy
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Back in my camera club days, we had a similar marking scheme to what Dave described - a 20, 19, and an 18 with the the rest scored between 11 and 17. All judges were external and briefed accordingly. Except one judge decided to ignore these instructions and did a 20, 19, 18 and then everything else between 8 about 10. This had a rather detrimental effect on the league tables as the scores for each month were added up (we could all enter 3 (or was it 5?) images) and the highest over the year won a prize.

    Needless to say this particular judge was not asked to return.....
     
  13. gerry s

    gerry s

    Messages:
    671
    Name:
    Gez
    Edit My Images:
    No
    Not too bad, at least he wasn’t asked not to return
     
    khakoo likes this.
  14. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

    Messages:
    4,436
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    That's a sorry tale :(

    And I've heard similar before

    I see the role as being one to help the club, so working within whatever system they wish to use (whether I think its the best or not) is an obvious way to do that

    Dave
     
  15. dcash29

    dcash29

    Messages:
    2,394
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Why use a scoring system of 20 if youre only going to use an 8 point range, or is it psychological for the poor photographer?
     
  16. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

    Messages:
    4,436
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Once upon a time most clubs used 0-10, but then under 5 was an insult; so they jumped to 0-20 which sounds better until you realise its basically just the same as under 10 is an insult lol

    That said, the range is a bit better as 11-20 rather than 5-10, so its a bit like having 1/2 marks - until of course you knock off the top 3 marks for a 1st, 2nd & 3rd instead :banghead::banghead::banghead:

    Dave
     
  17. AgentOrange76

    AgentOrange76

    Messages:
    231
    Name:
    James
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    because then they just use half points.

    My club has league competions, Beginners, intermediate and Advanced leagues, all are scored out of 10 with a * for best of each league. This is used to separate people on the same points.
    I never get why judges score half points, and cant just stick to 7,8,9 etc

    Rarely if ever does the score go below 5.

    stand alone comps have a top 6 scored commended, 3,2,1st

    All are external judges
     
  18. Chipper

    Chipper

    Messages:
    1,822
    Edit My Images:
    No
    My club has changed it's system recently after too many poor judges that either ignored the full range of scores, were unable to critique an image and just describe technical elements, or described what was in the photo eg it's a xxxx [car, horse etc etc]. We switched to a set of internal judges with a score pad this season which would submit the scores digitally and the judge was to give critique.

    I wasn't there when we did this the first time but it saved the evening as the man who came was so bad that at least one member wanted to throw him out - obviously, they didn't. At one point, this man said "eurgh" about a photo and said that was his critique. He talked about himself a lot, identified objects in images and generally waffled about everything and "I like it" was a favourite avoidance too... Obviously he won't be coming back!

    However, it is really good when a judge comes who can see beyond a list of 'rules' and interpret what he sees and / or offer ideas for improvement. Fingers crossed we get that for the prints comp later this month. Of course, a judge can't please everybody and some do spend a great deal of time preparing and that is always appreciated.
     
  19. dcash29

    dcash29

    Messages:
    2,394
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    What ive always thought, a sham to stop the poor photographer crying on the floor and later leaving the club. :LOL:

    At the end of the day its another individuals opinion, however theres not many club members that can take a difference of opinion on their images.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
    DG Phototraining likes this.
  20. Mr Badger

    Mr Badger

    Messages:
    3,188
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Might this depend on how many marks the committee members get? :LOL:
     
    Bebop, dcash29 and Marc like this.
  21. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

    Messages:
    4,436
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    QUICK UPDATE - the Judging went very well with me being thank profusely for passing on so many hints & tips as well as (mostly) useful marks lol

    And they've asked me to come back next year already and also enquired about what talks I offer

    Good result then :)

    Dave
     
  22. cargo

    cargo

    Messages:
    5,269
    Name:
    Gary
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Hi Dave. Good read this thread. Funnily enough it was our final externally judged comp of the year last night too.
    I am a member of Stalybridge club which is Tameside/Manchester.
    We are scored like you say out of 20 and I have never seen a score lower than 13 and that is very rare. Majority score 14 to 17.
    When I first joined you had a third place 18 marks, 19 marks second place and winner with 20 marks. As time as gone by the standard as become way way higher and more entries.
    Last night there were 40 dpi's the judge held 12 back.

    We ended up with quite a few attaining 18 marks some with 19 and 2 or 3 with 19.5 marks (not had that before) and 1 winner with 20 marks.
    Often we have two with 20 marks.
    The judge was good though.

    I don't envy your task at all.
    In my experiance, if your going to have comps they are only of use if an external judge comes in. Our sort of in house comps are chaos and are not well supported with entries nor attended well.

    Gaz
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2018
  23. droj

    droj

    Messages:
    2,950
    Name:
    droj
    Edit My Images:
    No
    That reads as slightly garbled. But it appears to me that technical aspects (of photos) are things that can be readily critiqued - you can put your finger on them. And of course they're valid criteria. Surely, though, the other aspects of images are cultural. How discussable is this in a camera club context (or indeed on this forum)?

    I know little of camera clubs, but suspect that to many members of them, culture is a foreign word.

    Enlighten me.
     
  24. TheBigYin

    TheBigYin Staff Member

    Messages:
    22,197
    Name:
    Mark
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    a little like some areas of certain fora... nearest they get to culture is if they open a pot of Yoghurt...
     
    StephenM likes this.
  25. droj

    droj

    Messages:
    2,950
    Name:
    droj
    Edit My Images:
    No
    But not all yoghurt is alive ...
     
  26. Nod

    Nod Kronus

    Messages:
    30,794
    Name:
    Nod (NOT Ethel!!!)
    Edit My Images:
    Yes

    Or toe-jamb...
     
  27. keety

    keety

    Messages:
    326
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I've always thought marks should be out of 3

    1 - Technical issues
    2 - No Technical Issues but not a great image
    3 - No Technical issues and great image

    How on earth could you compare a macro of a Butterfly to a black and white portrait of an Indian Fella. Keeping the scores as simple as possible removes that issue and seeing as its all subjective it should remove "This judge only likes trains" type issues...

    Personally, the thing that most annoys me about Judging is when I get say 8/10 but the Judge doesn't tell me why they knocked two points off. I don't actually care about the score, I just want the critical feedback to help me improve as a photographer.
     
    davholla likes this.
  28. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

    Messages:
    4,436
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Which is why its often best to have only a 1,2,3 and any commends too - but a lengthy explanation of what's both good and potentially could be improved on every shot - that's something I try to do and when achieved its always well appreciated

    Unfortunately sometimes there are so many to comment on that you just don't have time to do each image justice :(

    I also try to avoid the 'Open' category if I can, as this is where I may be asked to judge a butterfly & gritty portrait & sports shot & a record of a church window against each other; which is crazy

    Dave
     
  29. anwa

    anwa

    Messages:
    75
    Name:
    Anthony
    Edit My Images:
    No
    My camera club used to score competitions with only a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Highly commended, Commended etc. but we changed last year to scoring out of 20 and still awarding the 1st, 2nd, 3rd placings. This way more than one image can score 20 and the judge is still able to choose a winner, thus avoiding the "really scoring between 12 and 17" scenario.
    The reason was that newer members entering competitions weren't getting placings and therefore never knew if their photography was improving or not. By scoring out of 20 they could see if their average scores were going up and they were getting better. If their average score was 14 last year and 16 this year then it should indicate an improvement.

    Also, we used to have themed competitions but the number of entries was so poor that we had to make them open to keep them viable. We do still have some annual competitions that are themed and the number of entries is considerably lower than for the open ones. I fully understand why making competitions open in subject makes them near impossible to score for the judges, though.

    Personally I don't understand the "scoring out of 20 but never giving less than 10 because it might offend somebody". We should either say scores are between 1 and 10, or properly scored between 1 and 20, but that seems to be just me.
     
  30. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

    Messages:
    4,436
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    That's my view entirely too :)

    Dave
     
  31. Box Brownie

    Box Brownie

    Messages:
    6,420
    Edit My Images:
    No
    I seem to recall that at the one club I was a member for the longest time (actually might have been the only one I joined.....Woking......this back in the film days ;) ) had quite a line up of very good photographers who printed their work including Tim Rudman and one whose name I cannot recall who printed his own large Cibachromes).

    But i digress, they had two classes in every competition Advanced (see note above about the level of experience there....) and intermediate/beginner. IMO this ensured that there was some level of parity within each class.

    As for the scoring, too long ago to remember details but it was not out of 20. Oh! the nice thing they did to encourage developing ones critique skills was to have sessions where we all had the opportunity to stand up at the front and do "judging".....it certainly made sure that all was constructive criticism and never 'personal' !

    FWIW I joined Woking because at the time, apart from being the nearest, was the least cliquey and most welcoming ;)

    PS as an aside ....fairly sure Tim Rudman and 3 or 4 other Woking members started a group whose name escapes me right now, who exhibited widely for some years???
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  32. Mr Badger

    Mr Badger

    Messages:
    3,188
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    So a score of less than 'Y' is an 'insult' for some/many/most camera club competitions? What if a photograph is not worth Y, is the judge supposed to tell lies or simply pretend it's worth more?

    If the 'Y' threshold is say 12 points, what if one person's photo genuinely deserved 12 points out of 20, won't they feel insulted if a photo that genuinely deserves about 8 points is also given 12? What's the point of the competition if photos can't receive the score they are truly worth, is it just to make people feel artificially good about their ability (or possible lack of it)?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  33. Terrywoodenpic

    Terrywoodenpic

    Messages:
    5,658
    Name:
    Terry
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I have never joined a club. but have visited as a guest a club in Colchester while in the Artillery, and much later another that met in my building. I was very much a square peg in a round hole in both situations. However Though I may not be a "Club" person. For a long time I was a member of the Kent guild of spinners weavers and Dyers, and the Hawkhurst guild of Craftsmen ( who restricted their membership to no more than two people representing each craft. and had a selection process that involved recommendation and submitting original work)
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  34. DG Phototraining

    DG Phototraining Woof

    Messages:
    4,436
    Name:
    Dave
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    That doesn't happen - at least not with me

    So if its a 12 (I gave a couple of 11s this week) then it gets a 12, if its nowhere near a 12 I will give 10 or lower; I recall giving an 8 once but explaining well the reasons for that. Realistically, few who enter comps are poor enough to deserve lower than a 10 and those that would score lower probably just don't enter

    Dave
     
  35. cargo

    cargo

    Messages:
    5,269
    Name:
    Gary
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    This is our experience too. All the external judged comps are open. These are well supported.
     
  36. Brian G

    Brian G

    Messages:
    1,485
    Name:
    Brian
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I don't understand why you a restricted to only one 20, 19 &18 for 1st, second and third.
    The other week at our club the judge awarded seven 20's and then went on to select first, second and third plus highly commended from those.
    It's nice to score a 20, but it's no guarantee you are going to win.
     
    Yvette Smith likes this.
  37. Mr Badger

    Mr Badger

    Messages:
    3,188
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I see, it was just that from your first post I got the impression the first 10 or 11 points were almost compulsory, and couldn't really see the point in that.
     
  38. Mr Badger

    Mr Badger

    Messages:
    3,188
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    I'm struggling to understand that, if something gets top marks then surely it can't be bettered in any respect (including appropriateness of theme, technical quality in both image and print, etc.), in which case it would come down to personal preference in order to choose an outright winner? If they all scored 20 points then IMO they should all have got first prize by the very nature of them all being equally perfect in every respect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2018
  39. Yvette Smith

    Yvette Smith

    Messages:
    23
    Edit My Images:
    No
    In my camera club, (Bottisham and Burwell), the competitions are open, but mono and colour are separate sections. Judges usually hold back the images they particularly like, and consider those again at the end. Most of them will then mark the images they have held, higher than the other ones. Quite often, the 1, 2, 3 and highly commended may all have 20/20, but not always, some just give the 1st the only 20. At the end of the day, it is only the judges opinion. For those on here that aren’t in a club, these Judges have all been on courses and had training in how to critique images, they are normally very experienced photographers with lots of letters after their names...!
     
    Brian G likes this.
  40. Brian G

    Brian G

    Messages:
    1,485
    Name:
    Brian
    Edit My Images:
    Yes
    Our club comps are usually open, without a theme or set subject, so fitting a theme or subject is not a factor in the judging.
    It's quite possible to have two, or more, technically excellent images of completely different subjects, in which case the choice of a winner comes down to the judges preference.
    A judge with a prefernce for a wildlife image is bound to pick that over, say, a portrait, even though both may be equally excellent in every other respect.
    Many times judges have said "This is purely my opinion, and someone else may have a different opinion."
    I believe that having an objective critique of an image is an important factor in understanding why it failed to achieve top marks.
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice