Just had Professional Photographs Taken, ADVICE DESPERATELY NEEDED!!

[richsmith2k1]

Hey guys,

I'm hoping someone can please spare a minute to help me without something important. I treated my girlfriend to professional photos of her and I yesterday at a high street photographer/studio...

Pictures all look great and then it came to the convo about pricing...! All 8-10" prints are £20 (Absolutely fine!) and then when it came to the 40x30" canvass that we want (the main reason for the shoot) he said it would be approx in the region of £350-420! I've subsequently searched online and seen you can buy prints on this size canvass at several places for between £50-80.

Can someone please help me to understand what, if anything, I am missing here... because there is an incredibly large difference in price and I cannot afford to pay up to £400 for it. My initial thoughts are buying it in 10x8" and seeing if I can then take that in to somebody for them to copy to a 40x30" canvass for me instead?

I don't know what to expect by way of replies, as this is a desperate attempt for advice and didn't know where to ask? ANY advice would be REALLY helpful (as it's for my girlfriends bday present)!

Thanks!

 

[Johnd2000]

That's how most High St places do it. Cheap shoot, expensive prints. One local studio charges £25 for the shoot. A mate's wife took the baby down and came out £250 lighter.

 

[ZoneV]

Hi, and welcome to TP.

I feel your pain but didn't you think of pricing-up before going ahead with the photo-shoot? Unless you can negotiate a better price for the canvas then you have no other legitimate option other than to research and find another studio within your budget for a 40x30 canvas, as scanning the prints to produce your own would very likely breach the studio's copyright.

 

[richsmith2k1]

Yeah I did get quotes over the phone, and he gave me the impression of a ball-park figure approx £150. Therefore I purchased a £150 voucher once I had that initial conversation, and now it seems that when I go back the prices have upped (as he knows I need to use my voucher and is taking liberties!)

I don't understand how this would contravene studio copyright as technically I am purchasing a picture from them. All i'd be requiring is for someone to make it in to a bigger size for me...? Would no places out there be able to do this???

 

[PsiFox]

Yes you can buy cheap canvases for £50-£80. the wood may warp, the canvas may sag and the colours fade.
Alternatively you can pay for a premium product that will last much longer.
Bear in mind the "premium price" includes the photographers time optimising the image for display and colour reproduction as well.
I have sold canvases that size in that price range (350-420) but know many that charge double that

 

[Johnd2000]

I should add I'm not criticising the pricing. A High St studio has overheads to cover.

I know several local freelancers who would do a home shoot + 1 full-res electronic image for around £100. To a lot of people that sounds expensive, until they try the £25 bricks and mortar studio shoot.

 

[richsmith2k1]

I appreciate the replies. I guess all i'm asking is where can I go for someone to print a photo to canvass for me if I give them a 10x8" print? I don't need 'top-end' quality, just someone who is prepared to do it for half that price? Who shall I contact??

 

[Yv]

Yeah I did get quotes over the phone, and he gave me the impression of a ball-park figure approx £150. Therefore I purchased a £150 voucher once I had that initial conversation, and now it seems that when I go back the prices have upped (as he knows I need to use my voucher and is taking liberties!)

I don't understand how this would contravene studio copyright as technically I am purchasing a picture from them. All i'd be requiring is for someone to make it in to a bigger size for me...? Would no places out there be able to do this???

NO - you are buying a print of a photograph, not permission to use or reproduce that print in any way - you will find that even if he will sell you that permission, it will cost you a LOT more then £20 I am afraid.

Yes you can buy cheap canvases for £50-£80. the wood may warp, the canvas may sag and the colours fade.
Alternatively you can pay for a premium product that will last much longer.
Bear in mind the "premium price" includes the photographers time optimising the image for display and colour reproduction as well.
I have sold canvases that size in that price range (350-420) but know many that charge double that

Basically this, you are paying for a premium product from a skilled artist/technician who has spent years learning his trade and has high street shop overheads to cover - or rather, that would have to be my assumption based on the information you have given. That is not to say that there aren't rip off merchants with little or no training/experience and are actually selling really cheap products as expensive ones, of course there are, but am basing my asumption on you having chosen a reputable local studio.

 

[Johnd2000]

I appreciate the replies. I guess all i'm asking is where can I go for someone to print a photo to canvass for me if I give them a 10x8" print? I don't need 'top-end' quality, just someone who is prepared to do it for half that price? Who shall I contact??

You can't do that. It's a copyright infringement that could land you with a hefty legal bill. No reputable printer will take such a job on.

 

[ZoneV]

Yeah I did get quotes over the phone, and he gave me the impression of a ball-park figure approx £150. Therefore I purchased a £150 voucher once I had that initial conversation, and now it seems that when I go back the prices have upped (as he knows I need to use my voucher and is taking liberties!)

You are quite possibly right but that's why it's important to ask for specific prices. A ball-park amount is no good at all - how can he know what the quantity and size of your order will be? Find out what sizes are available, the price of each and work out the costs before deciding to book. Don't forget to shop around for the best deal too of course.

I don't understand how this would contravene studio copyright as technically I am purchasing a picture from them. All i'd be requiring is for someone to make it in to a bigger size for me...? Would no places out there be able to do this???

You could get it done but as far as I know, most photographers/studios prohibit the duplication and manipulation of their prints.

 

[richsmith2k1]

Thanks for the info. One final question then, if, hypothetically, the studio that I get pictures from goes out of business next week, yet I was in love with a picture I got from them.. Then i'd Never be able to ever reproduce another copy of this?

 

[Yv]

Thanks for the info. One final question then, if, hypothetically, the studio that I get pictures from goes out of business next week, yet I was in love with a picture I got from them.. Then i'd Never be able to ever reproduce another copy of this?

basically correct, assuming that you haven't bought the printing rights, though of course, if they went out of business, contacting them and asking if you can purchase such rights would be an option.

Which brings me to the next thing - have you asked if they do a digital package, whereby you buy all/a selection of the images on a disc/USB together with permission to print them for your personal use? Many wedding/portrait photographers offer such an option - less so with studios, some do, some don't, but may well be worth finding out.

 

[a1ex2001]

Thanks for the info. One final question then, if, hypothetically, the studio that I get pictures from goes out of business next week, yet I was in love with a picture I got from them.. Then i'd Never be able to ever reproduce another copy of this?

basically correct, assuming that you haven't bought the printing rights, though of course, if they went out of business, contacting them and asking if you can purchase such rights would be an option.

Funnily enough I ran into almost exactly this situation, I wanted a copy of a University ball photo of me and my friends many years after the event. My friends all had copies but mine had gone missing, I got the details of the shot and the photographer and contacted them. They went back through there archive on DVD and sadly my photo was on one of a bad batch of DVD's so could not be retrieved. They were sensible and said I could scan and copy my friends shot (I think they were slightly surprised I hadn't already!)

 

[Metal God]

If you had purchased that size canvas from me, I would have charged £799.00. My nearest competitor charges £1,250.00 for near enough the same thing. Other studios may charge even more.

A lot of people make the mistake of comparing print prices with what they pay at the local minilab, when in reality the service a portrait photographer provides is totally different and bespoke.

You are paying for the studio's time, skill and expertise. A sitting at a studio is often a loss leader and they make their income from selling prints. That's how I and many studios work. I also make clients aware of what I charge before they book, so there are no nasty surprises.

The studio will often spend several hours processing/preparing the images for your viewing, the viewing itself - which could take 1-3 hours depending on the clients requirements (my longest viewing was 4 hours), the editing of the final images to the clients specifications and the production of the actual prints.

A studio who charges high end prices will use much higher quality materials than a minilab would use, which cost much more. All that time has to be accounted for and just like any business, the studio has overheads to pay for. Some studios I know often have to make a sale of at least £300.00 before they break even on the shoot.

 

[riddell]

Unfortuantely there is a MASSIVE difference between the cheap canvases you see online and the professional ones any decent photographer would supply.

The cheap ones are awful. There is no way I would want my customers to have them.

On top of this, the photographer will most likely be doing extra work to make the canvas look even better before he sends it off.

 

[Metal God]

The 40" canvasses you buy from Loxley's cost over £200.00 each.

 

[SixToes]

...he gave me the impression of a ball-park figure approx £150. Therefore I purchased a £150 voucher once I had that initial conversation, and now it seems that when I go back the prices have upped (as he knows I need to use my voucher and is taking liberties!)...

That's out of order if it you specifically asked about a canvas at that size. What did he say when you reminded him about this conversation?

 

[Phil Young]

Pay the studio £25 to put a full resolution on CD for you and then buy the canvas from eBay for £50...you're being ripped off. Canvases don't take that much work, someone could knock one up in way under an hour.

 

[simonblue]

This thread not going to have a happy ending

I kinda feel the only way you would had been rip off,is if you had said at the start, i want a canvas print 30x40 how much will that cost ?

 

[Thedodo]

If you had purchased that size canvas from me, I would have charged £799.00. My nearest competitor charges £1,250.00 for near enough the same thing. Other studios may charge even more.

A lot of people make the mistake of comparing print prices with what they pay at the local minilab, when in reality the service a portrait photographer provides is totally different and bespoke.

You are paying for the studio's time, skill and expertise. A sitting at a studio is often a loss leader and they make their income from selling prints. That's how I and many studios work. I also make clients aware of what I charge before they book, so there are no nasty surprises.

The studio will often spend several hours processing/preparing the images for your viewing, the viewing itself - which could take 1-3 hours depending on the clients requirements (my longest viewing was 4 hours), the editing of the final images to the clients specifications and the production of the actual prints.

A studio who charges high end prices will use much higher quality materials than a minilab would use, which cost much more. All that time has to be accounted for and just like any business, the studio has overheads to pay for. Some studios I know often have to make a sale of at least £300.00 before they break even on the shoot.

£799 for a 40" canvas??, loxley print superb quality for less than half that

 

[Phil Young]

This thread not going to have a happy ending

I kinda feel the only way you would had been rip off,is if you had said at the start, i want a canvas print 30x40 how much will that cost ?

I'm prepared for that as folk will try to justify extortionate pricing but I believe in fairness and that price is far from fair.

A canvas would cost the maker what... £20-30?? Then the time it takes to print and put together the canvas, an hour tops.

Let's say we'd be happy to work for £30 per hour, that's a near £400 net profit.

Ok so they are a business and theY have rates etc to pay...so what? It's still a fairly cheap product to buy to the company and they would wack at least 400% on top of their cost price. That's crazy.

I understand prices are going into the thousands of % but then a 10"x12" doesn't require a loan to buy for some...

 

[DemiLion]

How lovely it must be to make your money in a day job, charge for photography part-time and then have the sheer front to critiscise those that price in order to make their living from the profession.

It's people like you two that are wrecking this industry.

 

[Phil Young]

How lovely it must be to make your money in a day job, charge for photography part-time and then have the sheer front to critiscise those that price in order to make their living from the profession.

It's people like you two that are wrecking this industry.

Lets be serious - it's everyone getting into photography and it being so cheap to buy and produce "ok" shots that make it tougher for the industry to male the profit margins it used to...but I'll accept some bullets from others that can't see that times change and as a result their standard of service and innovation has to as well.

It's harder for personal trainers to make money as well but you don't see me complaining about that - I simply adapt and innovate my product to be something that others can't really compete with, give something that people don't get from wii video games and online articles.

Photographers that charge so aggressively are living on borrowed time and if they don't think about how to innovate themselves from competition in future, they probably won't have a future.

...if you seriously think it's people like me that are "wrecking" the industry, good luck to you.

 

[DemiLion]

Yup. I think that any part-timer who uses their day job to subsidise non viable prices is trashing the industry.

Go full time and you'll soon change your tune.

 

[neil_g]

I don't think 300-350 quid is too bad for a 40" canvas. While we don't have that size as a standard option if someone asked for an adhoc quote it'd be at that level.

I would question why they are saying "in the region of", surely they know their own pricing?

 

[ecoleman]

I'm with Phil on this. £800+ for a canvas is ridiculous. There is no way in hell that your materials and time would come to this sort of money.

For the record I don't make any money from photography.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Hey guys,

I'm hoping someone can please spare a minute to help me without something important. I treated my girlfriend to professional photos of her and I yesterday at a high street photographer/studio...

Pictures all look great and then it came to the convo about pricing...! All 8-10" prints are £20 (Absolutely fine!) and then when it came to the 40x30" canvass that we want (the main reason for the shoot) he said it would be approx in the region of £350-420! I've subsequently searched online and seen you can buy prints on this size canvass at several places for between £50-80.

Can someone please help me to understand what, if anything, I am missing here... because there is an incredibly large difference in price and I cannot afford to pay up to £400 for it. My initial thoughts are buying it in 10x8" and seeing if I can then take that in to somebody for them to copy to a 40x30" canvass for me instead?

I don't know what to expect by way of replies, as this is a desperate attempt for advice and didn't know where to ask? ANY advice would be REALLY helpful (as it's for my girlfriends bday present)!

Thanks!

You want a photographer to operate a studio-space to give you a great experience, produce bespoke work, just for you, and then you expect to pay no more than £150? He has to pay his rent on the studio, advertising, production costs, staff, utility bills etc. It probably cost him £100 just to get you to walk through the door!! No one has ripped you off. Why didn't you ask how much a 40x30 canvas was before you bought the £150 voucher?

I'll apply your logic next time I call a plumber out to fix a leaky tap then. He'll fit a washer that costs 50p, so that's all I'll expect to pay him... if I feel generous I'll give him perhaps £20 for his time... after all, it only took an hour. LOL

You're paying for skill, talent and something you can in no way get yourself unless you spend an equal amount of time training for. You're not just paying for the cost of producing a print. You think the guy's talent and skill should come for free?

 

[Jayst84]

£799 for a 40" canvas??, loxley print superb quality for less than half that

David already said that:

The 40" canvasses you buy from Loxley's cost over £200.00 each.

I wasn't aware that Loxely provided a studio portrait service to go with it though...

...
A canvas would cost the maker what... £20-30?? Then the time it takes to print and put together the canvas, an hour tops.

Let's say we'd be happy to work for £30 per hour, that's a near £400 net profit.

Ok so they are a business and theY have rates etc to pay...so what? It's still a fairly cheap product to buy to the company and they would wack at least 400% on top of their cost price. That's crazy...

Think you've over simplified just a touch there.

I very rarely print, providing a CD or DVD costs me a couple of dollars in product and postage, and takes me about 20 minutes to burn and send out. So, I should charge 20 quid? Uploading files to Dropbox costs even less than that and takes even less time...

As you're well aware, photographers charge for the rights to use their images in various ways. As with a lot of industries, the visible cost to produce the product has little to do with its value.

I charge more than some of my competitors because I produce a better product, that is worth more to the customer. Whether I spend more or less than my competitor to produce that product isn't relevant.

 

[simon ess]

Where did £800 come from?

I'm sort of kind of with Phil on this.

The market is changing. Adapt or fail.

I don't care if the "traditional" industry is suffering.

Work out a way to give give people what they want, at a price they're willing to pay.

Or find a profitable niche.

Pro photographers are primarily business people. So work out how to be profitable in the current climate.

 

[tiler65]

Where did £800 come from?

I'm sort of kind of with Phil on this.

The market is changing. Adapt or fail.

I don't care if the "traditional" industry is suffering.

Work out a way to give give people what they want, at a price they're willing to pay.

Or find a profitable niche.

Pro photographers are primarily business people. So work out how to be profitable in the current climate.

I don't think David aka Metal God is failing though.

 

[tiler65]

I'm with Phil on this. £800+ for a canvas is ridiculous. There is no way in hell that your materials and time would come to this sort of money.

For the record I don't make any money from photography.

Never been to a Venture shop then have you.

 

[simon ess]

Hey no - good luck to him. He's doing something right.

I get a bit miffed with "pros" blaming others. That's all.

Deal with your business.

 

[DT01]

I'm prepared for that as folk will try to justify extortionate pricing but I believe in fairness and that price is far from fair.

A canvas would cost the maker what... £20-30?? Then the time it takes to print and put together the canvas, an hour tops.

Let's say we'd be happy to work for £30 per hour, that's a near £400 net profit.

At least everyone knows who to come to for the correct rates. Thanks for that.

Ok so they are a business and theY have rates etc to pay...so what?

Yes, they have rates, and rent and a range of pro-spec camera bodies, lenses, lights, modifiers, computer hardware, software, insurance, marketing and promotions costs, cost of sales, tax..... so yeah, so what?!:shrug:

they would wack at least 400% on top of their cost price. That's crazy.

Wrong! Not 'crazy', just industry standard for anyone wishing to make a wage from portraiture, taking the afore-mentioned overheads into account...

I understand prices are going into the thousands of % but then a 10"x12" doesn't require a loan to buy for some...

No, a 10'x12' requires 195 quid if it's in a premium bespoke frame and you buy it from me.

Photographers that charge so aggressively are living on borrowed time and if they don't think about how to innovate themselves from competition in future, they probably won't have a future..

The fact that you consider the OP's scenario to reflect 'aggressive pricing' (along with everything else you have said on this topic)only reinforces your 'amateur' status. What people tend not to consider when spouting off on TP or other fora, is that TP is not the industry....there are plenty of people running successful studios out there who wouldn't come near an internet forum and would see your comments as nothing more than a rant from someone who knows nothing about their business.

That said, it's your opinion and who's to say your not entitled to it. Is it damaging? Well it's certainly misleading and the photographers who should be worried about their future would be anyone who applies your 'cost+hourly rate=right price' method of charging.

 

[Johnd2000]

I don't begrudge anyone for charging whatever they get for photography. It's a luxury service after all.

I do, however, think its massively misleading to slant one's pricing in a way that hides to total end cost to the consumer. Advertising £30 portrait shoots that give the customer 2 postcard-sized pictures, then adds 500% profit margin to any extras is clearly designed to mislead. I know so many people who have been completely put off buying photography by such practises.

 

[Cyclops]

 

[neil_g]

I don't begrudge anyone for charging whatever they get for photography. It's a luxury service after all.

I do, however, think its massively misleading to slant one's pricing in a way that hides to total end cost to the consumer. Advertising £30 portrait shoots that give the customer 2 postcard-sized pictures, then adds 500% profit margin to any extras is clearly designed to mislead. I know so many people who have been completely put off buying photography by such practises.

But then surely some responsibility is with the client to check additional product cost before hand.

 

[Adow2]

basically correct, assuming that you haven't bought the printing rights, though of course, if they went out of business, contacting them and asking if you can purchase such rights would be an option.

Which brings me to the next thing - have you asked if they do a digital package, whereby you buy all/a selection of the images on a disc/USB together with permission to print them for your personal use? Many wedding/portrait photographers offer such an option - less so with studios, some do, some don't, but may well be worth finding out.

My two little ones had their portraits done in Nursery. There was a selection of poses, in colour and B&W. we were offered different packages with an assortment of sizes, none were suitable, in so much as the different size packages didn't give us enough of a selection for family. We also couldn't decide on a 1 or 2 shots out of the selection of poses so we decided to take the option of buying a package on DVD which came in presentation box, thumbnails of the selection of poses (3 in total) and a certificate for the rights of the images so we can go wherever to get whatever prints that we want. This package was, IMO, very reasonable priced at £110.

 

[st599]

I don't understand how this would contravene studio copyright as technically I am purchasing a picture from them. All i'd be requiring is for someone to make it in to a bigger size for me...? Would no places out there be able to do this???

No you aren't. The photographer owns the copyright unless stated in a contract of employment. You have purchased a licensed print.

If you took it elsewhere to scan and print you and the printer would be in breach of copyright. You could be sued for damages (the cost of his canvas), the printer could face charges of deliberately breaching for financial gain.

However, you do have a verbal quotation and he sold you a voucher based on it. He could be fraudulently selling the voucher based upon the verbal quote.

 

[DT01]

I don't begrudge anyone for charging whatever they get for photography. It's a luxury service after all.

I do, however, think its massively misleading to slant one's pricing in a way that hides to total end cost to the consumer. Advertising £30 portrait shoots that give the customer 2 postcard-sized pictures, then adds 500% profit margin to any extras is clearly designed to mislead. I know so many people who have been completely put off buying photography by such practises.

Not quite....if anything, its designed to get them through the door so that you can create something awesome that they will want to buy. Whether they do buy or not is 100% down to them. We have a choice about how we might persuade them and the 'hard sell' stuff you hear about is invariably linked to a national studio franchise whose name sounds a bit like 'denture'. There are other, more relaxed, and probably commercially less effective ways of doing it (which is my preferred way) In fact I have had a dinner meeting with a client tonight to discuss purchases from a shoot I did before Christmas (no rush then). Two options I had presented were at around £700 and £1000. He chose the higher amount and bought dinner. No pressure, no hard sell, happy client and happy photographer...

I know, shameful isn't it??!!

 

[Phil Young]

At least everyone knows who to come to for the correct rates. Thanks for that.

Yes, they have rates, and rent and a range of pro-spec camera bodies, lenses, lights, modifiers, computer hardware, software, insurance, marketing and promotions costs, cost of sales, tax..... so yeah, so what?!:shrug:

Wrong! Not 'crazy', just industry standard for anyone wishing to make a wage from portraiture, taking the afore-mentioned overheads into account...

No, a 10'x12' requires 195 quid if it's in a premium bespoke frame and you buy it from me.

The fact that you consider the OP's scenario to reflect 'aggressive pricing' (along with everything else you have said on this topic)only reinforces your 'amateur' status. What people tend not to consider when spouting off on TP or other fora, is that TP is not the industry....there are plenty of people running successful studios out there who wouldn't come near an internet forum and would see your comments as nothing more than a rant from someone who knows nothing about their business.

That said, it's your opinion and who's to say your not entitled to it. Is it damaging? Well it's certainly misleading and the photographers who should be worried about their future would be anyone who applies your 'cost+hourly rate=right price' method of charging.

You can nit pick my replies as much as you like but what do we have here: pros arguing that consumers are paying for their costs hence the pricing. Does the consider care about the costs they are paying for? No.

In their mind: Can they get the same quality from an.....amateur? Yes.

Go figure...

For the record: it is extortionate pricing because of what it costs vs what is charged. Businesses have to make a certain turnover and profit each day/week/month/year, this doesn't have to come from extortion.

Like I said, people that charge this will try to justify it but I am yet to see any worthy justification.

I think that if a product needs so much persuasion to buy, the price is wrong. If everyone's customers just hand over their money without objection then it's clearly not extortionate pricing for you.

Does anyone have an argument for such high pricing other than paying business rates?? Forget skill: that doesn't justify extortionate prices just because you deliver a job that should be at that standard anyway. You don't expect a mechanic to be rubbish but because there are so many, we now have this obscure vision of paying more for what SHOULD be the industry standard anyway.