Landscape Light Meter

EdinburghGary

EdinburghGary

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Guys,

I have a budget of £500 for a light meter, and I am looking for the best option for landscapes. It needs to be perfect for high contrast scenes, as well as the more subdued early and late golden hour lanndscapes. I want a meter that gets absolutely spot on readings to enable me to ensure I am shooting my film effectively.

This model appears to get LOTS of good reviews:
http://www.calumetphoto.co.uk/item/360-220V/

Is it overkill though? I will not spend £500 if I can get exactly what I need for half the price. However, if the more expensive models allow me to work quicker, and if they come with features which make my life easier, I will pay up.

The trouble is, I really don't understand exactly what type of metering is best. I hear some people say SPOT, and then others say instead of measuring reflective light, that I should use an incident meter.

What I like about the meter I have linked to, you can take several readings, and average them out into one final reading.

Any help appreciated.

Gary.
 
Only had a quick peek there Gary - but I didn't see what degree it's spot meter was. For your purposes I'd be looking at something with a 1 degree spot, and certainly no more than 3 degrees

The rest of the spec looks fine though, and telling you which ND grad to use I suppose could be a useful gimmick

There is a book on 'Understanding Exposure' - I think it's called, which everyone raves about. Personally, I think you'd do better to buy & digest it first to truly understand what you need to then purchase & why

:)

DD
 
The two main types of metering are Ambient and Incident.

Ambient is the simplest method and works by pointing the meter at the subject from the camera position. The meter works out the exposure based on the assumption that a normal scene reflects an average of 18% light. An extension of this is to measure an 18% grey card held in the same light.

Incident metering is the next stage. This is done by putting a diffusing dome over the meter's sensor and holding the meter at the subject position and pointing it at the camera. Great for outdoor portraits - not so good if your subject is a range of mountains two miles away!

This meter caters for both of those modes: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1006770

It can also do flash metering if you ever want to get into that.

Spot metering usually requires a separate dedicated meter with a one degree view although meters are available which combine the functions of the one above with a five degree spot: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1009841

A spot meter can be most simply used by pointing it at something in the scene which you consider to be mid grey and using the exposure the meter suggests. You can also use it to measure the shadow and highlight values and select an exposure in between.

Another advantage of a spot meter is that you can use it to meter the midtones, shadows and highlights, use the midtone reading for your exposure, ensure that the shadow reading will still record detail and if you are using a film with a lower dynamic range, use the highlight (sky) reading to decide which value of ND grad to use to hold back the sky.

As an example, you meter the mid tones and the meter suggests a setting of 1/125 f8. The shadow reading suggests 1/125 f4 which is two stops less light on the subject which is fine.

The highlight reading of the sky however may suggest 1/500 f22 which is five stops above mid and a total of seven stops range.

If you are using a transparency film with only a six stop range then you will need a one stop ND filter to reduce the brightness of the sky a bit and to allow the full range of the scene to fit into the range of the film.

That is a very simplified description so I suggest you do a search for an article written by someone more knowledgeable than me on this subject.

Here is a dedicated Pentax spot meter: http://www.microglobe.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?pName=pentax-digital-spotmeter

As you can see, the incident/ambient/flash meters are well within your budget but the spot meter may require a bit more saving!

DiddyDave said:
telling you which ND grad to use I suppose could be a useful gimmick
Click to expand...

replace the word 'gimmick' with 'technique'!!




Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
The two main types of metering are Ambient and Incident.

Ambient is the simplest method and works by pointing the meter at the subject from the camera position. The meter works out the exposure based on the assumption that a normal scene reflects an average of 18% light. An extension of this is to measure an 18% grey card held in the same light.

Incident metering is the next stage. This is done by putting a diffusing dome over the meter's sensor and holding the meter at the subject position and pointing it at the camera. Great for outdoor portraits - not so good if your subject is a range of mountains two miles away!

This meter caters for both of those modes: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1006770

It can also do flash metering if you ever want to get into that.

Spot metering usually requires a separate dedicated meter with a one degree view although meters are available which combine the functions of the one above with a five degree spot: http://www.warehouseexpress.com/product/default.aspx?sku=1009841

A spot meter can be most simply used by pointing it at something in the scene which you consider to be mid grey and using the exposure the meter suggests. You can also use it to measure the shadow and highlight values and select an exposure in between.

Another advantage of a spot meter is that you can use it to meter the midtones, shadows and highlights, use the midtone reading for your exposure, ensure that the shadow reading will still record detail and if you are using a film with a lower dynamic range, use the highlight (sky) reading to decide which value of ND grad to use to hold back the sky.

As an example, you meter the mid tones and the meter suggests a setting of 1/125 f8. The shadow reading suggests 1/125 f4 which is two stops less light on the subject which is fine.

The highlight reading of the sky however may suggest 1/500 f22 which is five stops above mid and a total of seven stops range.

If you are using a transparency film with only a six stop range then you will need a one stop ND filter to reduce the brightness of the sky a bit and to allow the full range of the scene to fit into the range of the film.

That is a very simplified description so I suggest you do a search for an article written by someone more knowledgeable than me on this subject.

Here is a dedicated Pentax spot meter: http://www.microglobe.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?pName=pentax-digital-spotmeter

As you can see, the incident/ambient/flash meters are well within your budget but the spot meter may require a bit more saving!



replace the word 'gimmick' with 'technique'!!




Steve.
Click to expand...


Nicely done there Steve - I still think Gary (anyone) should truly understand what they are after before spending £xxx on a lightmeter though, as just 'playing' could mean disappointment

:thumbs:

DD
 
DiddyDave said:
Nicely done there Steve
Click to expand...

Thanks. That was the second time I wrote it out as the first time I hit the back navigation by mistake and lost it!

DiddyDave said:
I still think Gary (anyone) should truly understand what they are after before spending £xxx on a lightmeter though, as just 'playing' could mean disappointment
Click to expand...

I agree. They are a lot of cash which could be spent on.... more film!

I personally meter with a 1950's Zeiss Ikon Ikophot meter which is surprisingly accurate and works fine with transparency film (and I refuse to bracket shots) and a not quite so old Weston Master II which I am sure has had a cell replacement in recent years.

Both of these were given to me by my father so were free (my favourite price!) but can be picked up fairly cheaply.

In normal daylight though, the sunny sixteen rule works fine for me as I usually use black and white negative film which isn't as picky as transparency film.

Another good resource is this:
DiddyDave said:
telling you which ND grad to use I suppose could be a useful gimmick
Click to expand...

As an extension of the sunny 16 rule.



Steve.
 
DiddyDave said:
Only had a quick peek there Gary - but I didn't see what degree it's spot meter was. For your purposes I'd be looking at something with a 1 degree spot, and certainly no more than 3 degrees

The rest of the spec looks fine though, and telling you which ND grad to use I suppose could be a useful gimmick

There is a book on 'Understanding Exposure' - I think it's called, which everyone raves about. Personally, I think you'd do better to buy & digest it first to truly understand what you need to then purchase & why

:)

DD
Click to expand...

I have the book, read half of it and lost it :( Will buy it again. The meter has a 1 degree spot function.

Gary.
 
DiddyDave said:
replace the word 'gimmick' with 'technique'!!

I said gimmick as after the first few uses you should be realising that you don't need that feature and will never use it again ;)
Click to expand...

Ah. I assume you mean the gimmick of the meter doing the maths for you.


Steve.
 
EdinburghGary said:
I have the book, read half of it and lost it :( Will buy it again. The meter has a 1 degree spot function.

Gary.
Click to expand...

Goodo - and there was me thinking you new sod all about zone methods etc.

Well if it has decent reviews too, then I think that's a good price for such a device as a mate of mine bought a 2nd hand one (some other make) for over £500 recently

DD
 
I'd highly recommend the Sekonic L-558 although I think it's been replaced now by a newer model. I bought mine 2nd hand, and saved a few bob. It's all the meter you'll ever need, with 1 degree spot mode, incident light mode, flash mode, and so many other modes that I've disabled some of them in the interests of keeping things simpler. It also comes with a radio module installed which enables the meter to trigger remote flashguns, and also has the facility to take multiple spot readings.

It's all the meter you're ever likely to need, and a 1 degree spot is pretty well essential for landscape work as DD says.

A spot meter can cause more problems than it solves though unless you have a good understanding of what you're doing with it, so you need to get your nose stuck into some reading Gary. ;)

A meter is something I'd look for 2nd hand. Ffordes usually have a good selection in stock.

L-558
 
CT said:
I'd highly recommend the Sekonic L-558 although I think it's been replaced now by a newer model. I bought mine 2nd hand, and saved a few bob. It's all the meter you'll ever need, with 1 degree spot mode, incident light mode, flash mode, and so many other modes that I've disabled some of them in the interests of keeping things simpler. It also comes with a radio module installed which enables the meter to trigger remote flashguns, and also has the facility to take multiple spot readings.

It's all the meter you're ever likely to need, and a 1 degree spot is pretty well essential for landscape work as DD says.

A spot meter can cause more problems than it solves though unless you have a good understanding of what you're doing with it, so you need to get your nose stuck into some reading Gary. ;)

A meter is something I'd look for 2nd hand. Ffordes usually have a good selection in stock.

L-558
Click to expand...

Thanks CT - any recommended reading other than "Understanding Exposure"?

I just bought the Kenko model, but I guess they and the 508 have similar functionality, or at least, everything I will need.

Gary.
 
FFordes have one NEW L-558 in stock for 279.99- hugely reduced. Grab it quick! ;)
 
EdinburghGary said:
Thanks CT - any recommended reading other than "Understanding Exposure"?
Click to expand...

To be honest Gary there must be a gazillion articles on the web which will tell all you need to know

I just bought the Kenko model, but I guess they and the 508 have similar functionality, or at least, everything I will need.

Gary.
Click to expand...
Oh well you've done nowt wrong there - it looks a very well spec'd meter.
 
LOL. I know exactly what your mean! :lol:

Actually that one does cine as well if you want to go into Speilberg mode.:woot:

I might be misinforming you about the radio module Dave - might in fact be an option - mine came with it.
 
When I gave up film I sold my Weston Master V with invercone for incident light readings.
That was a mistake. Never had problems with exposure when using that meter.
 
arclight said:
When I gave up film I sold my Weston Master V with invercone for incident light readings.
That was a mistake. Never had problems with exposure when using that meter.
Click to expand...

How can you incidence a distant landscape? I could send my wife down the road in the car, and get her to SMS me the settings I guess :D

Gary.
 
EdinburghGary said:
How can you incidence a distant landscape? I could send my wife down the road in the car, and get her to SMS me the settings I guess :D

Gary.
Click to expand...
That's the beauty of an incident reading - as long as the light falling on the distant subject is the same as where you take the reading, you're good to go.
 
EdinburghGary said:
How can you incidence a distant landscape? I could send my wife down the road in the car, and get her to SMS me the settings I guess :D

Gary.
Click to expand...

That's certainly one way of doing it ;)

Seriously though, if you're in the same light as the distant landscape, the reading will be the same

DD
 
LOL. There's nothing mysterious about that white incident cone Gary. All it does is reduce the amount of light to 18% so it gives a very similar result to metering on an 18% grey card.
 
CT said:
LOL. There's nothing mysterious about that white incident cone Gary. All it does is reduce the amount of light to 18% so it gives a very similar result to metering on an 18% grey card.
Click to expand...

So as long as the light falling is the same, then it should be as accurate as it gets in terms of an average scene?

I guess then the problems you have are, if you are standing in extreme shade/brightness, and the focal point is not, OR if my landscape has crazy variations in contrast and light, that you want that bit more creative freedom. Having the spot as an option is "spot on" :D

Gary.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Thanks guys,

I am like a sponge - love how much knowledge there is here.

Gary.
Click to expand...

Time for a change of Avatar mate :thumbs:

DD

EG_-_sponge.jpg
 
EdinburghGary said:
So as long as the light falling is the same, then it should be as accurate as it gets in terms of an average scene?

I guess then the problems you have are, if you are standing in extreme shade/brightness, and the focal point is not, OR if my landscape has crazy variations in contrast and light, that you want that bit more creative freedom. Having the spot as an option is "spot on" :D

Gary.
Click to expand...

You've pretty well got it Gary. You obviously wouldn't take your incident reading in the shade if those distant mountains were bathed in sunshine, and the very narrow 1 degree spot helps you cope with difficult scenes by metering a small tone or tones in those distant mountains.

Every tog should have a meter whether they know how to use it or not - it impresses the arse off people when you wave one about at a wedding. :lol:
 
Gary, If you mainly want it for landscapes and flash you could do a lot worse than a S/H Minolta Flashmeter F. I have one and it is great for flash but even better for landscapes.

Allows you to take highlight based readings and shadow based readings.

Brochure here

Manual here

I picked mine up from ebay, mint, with case and manual for £230, doesn't do incident though, but to be honest if you get to know your spotmeter you don't really need it.
 
That's a lovely meter, but how difficult is this exposure business? Especially bearing in mind that...

Film speed is only accurate to plus/minus 1/3rd stop.
Leaf shutters are notoriously inaccurate (1/500sec is nearer 1/350sec).
High f/numbers are often inaccurate, and/or inconsistent.
Film changes over time (stick it in the freezer).

Which explains why even the most confident photographers shoot Polaroids, bracket important shots, and clip-test the processing. You'll be wanting a colour temperature meter next, and a pile of Wratten filters.

But I do admire the pursuit of excellence and if you really really want to get into the academic side of exposure, then Ansel Adams' Zone System is the place to be. He wrote several books about it. TBH that Understanding Exposure book that people rate so highly is pretty superficial.
 
Agree with HoppyUK, Ansel Adams and his Zone system is the ultimate guide. The thing to get your head around is that accurate exposure is more aligned to black and white. In ansels zone system 18% grey is zone 5. So if you had a grey card and pointed your spot meter at that and set for that exposure you would record the image tones as accurately as possible.

I have taken this from a website

* Zone 9 pure white +4
* Zone 8 white with little detail +3
* Zone 7 greyish-white highlights +2
* Zone 6 light grey +1
* Zone 5 18% grey 0
* Zone 4 darkish grey -1
* Zone 3 blackish grey -2
* Zone 2 greyish black some texture -3
* Zone 1 Black with little detail -4
* Zone 0 key black no detail -5

What you can now do by using your experience of the system is alter where zone 5 is. Suppose you want detail in zone 0 and you are happy to lose the detail in zone 8..... take you spot meter reading and then alter your exposure to expose for zone 4 which alters the tonal range accordingly.

Remember a spot meter only gives you more control. Once you have mastered it then becomes an asset. Until you master i.e you learn where to point it you will think it useless

Have a look at http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/photography/84891

stew
 
HoppyUK said:
Leaf shutters are notoriously inaccurate (1/500sec is nearer 1/350sec).
Click to expand...

It's usually only the fast speeds. 1/500 and possibly 1/250. That's probably why the top speed on an RB67 is marked 1/400 instead of 1/500.


Steve.
 
Just a further note to Stew's post above.

The thing that most people don't seem 'to get' is that 'the zone system' is designed to work in conjuction with the developing process, and is really designed for Monochrome use only!

Firstly, everyone should be metering off a known tone, and then setting the camera accordingly, whether it be off a mid grey (zone 5) such as grass, light tarmac, blue sky about 90 degrees from the sun, this would be a straight setting for a correct exposure, if you meter from something darker or lighter say something on zone 3 or zone 7 then you would adjust the exposure accordingly. This is not using the zone system :nono: but many people think it is. It is just correct exposure control!

It is very difficult to use the zone system with 35mm Film as it was primarily developed (pun intended) for sheet film use, but can be used with MF if you have a camera with interchangeble backs and a minimum of 3 of these.

How it works is that you use your experience to decide what is the dynamic range you want for the scene you are taking. If the scene is too contrasty you would under develop the film (-1 known as contraction) to enable the full range of tones to be printed, and if the image was lacking contrast you could over develop the film (+1 known as expansion) to boost the contrast to give a full range of printable tones. Hence the need for 3 backs. Each back would be designated either -1, N, +1 and shots taken accordingly on each. Each film would then be developed seperately according to the required contrast control.

This is much easier to do with sheet film as you can develop each individual sheet

The idea of the zone system is that you have to visualise the final image, expose for a full tonal range and then develop the film to give you that full tonal range, then, using the correct grade of printing paper to fine tune the dynamic range make your perfect print.

If you every get the chance to see a fine 20" x 24" print from one of the exponents of the true zone system, it will blow you away!
 
Guys,

Thanks again for all the hints, tips, expert viewpoints and overall kindness. Amazes me that people take the time to share knowledge like this. Us kids of the digital era must have it so easy to the guys cutting their teeth on the old stuff all those years ago.

Don't be fooled though, cutting said teeth is required, and I wonder how many of us actually try hard enough. I personally (talking about myself), I personally feel that it's so easy to grab your digital camera, bracket like a fool, take 1,000s of photos on a day out, and try and salvage from what would literally, be hundreds of pounds worth of film if not shooting digital. This "spread shooting" is as much luck as it is skill. I now have a hunger to at least try and remove this "weakness" that my digital technique has instilled.

My biggest problem, is knowing where to focus next (heehee), and how extreme to be with my hunger to improve. I don't want my bags of digital gear going unused, but perhaps I will limit myself to a 1GB card or so.

Anyway. Where the hell do these spontaneous rants come from, beats me. I only wanted to say thanks, then my fingers went for a walk down qwerty lane!!

Gary.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Guys,



Don't be fooled though, cutting said teeth is required, and I wonder how many of us actually try hard enough. I personally (talking about myself), I personally feel that it's so easy to grab your digital camera, bracket like a fool, take 1,000s of photos on a day out, and try and salvage from what would literally, be hundreds of pounds worth of film if not shooting digital. This "spread shooting" is as much luck as it is skill. I now have a hunger to at least try and remove this "weakness" that my digital technique has instilled.



Gary.
Click to expand...

Using colour transparency film (with an incident light meter) was a good teacher. It had a very tight exposure latitude (maybe still does - I am out of touch with film now)
The film was relatively expensive and shooting off reams was out of the question for normal mortals on average incomes.

I indulge in "spread shooting" from time to time, but wrongly exposed images still annoy me.
Your post has tempted me to get an incident light meter again.
 
arclight said:
Using colour transparency film (with an incident light meter) was a good teacher. It had a very tight exposure latitude (maybe still does - I am out of touch with film now)
The film was relatively expensive and shooting off reams was out of the question for normal mortals on average incomes.

I indulge in "spread shooting" from time to time, but wrongly exposed images still annoy me.
Your post has tempted me to get an incident light meter again.
Click to expand...

Mine has just arrived - it's fricking huge! And looks complicated :(
Gary.
 
EdinburghGary said:
Mine has just arrived - it's fricking huge! And looks complicated :(
Gary.
Click to expand...

LOL. It's only has complicated as you want it be Gary - but I do know what you mean. :D

Sit down and play with it - at least have a token go at reading the manual and understanding at least one of the modes - Incident readings would be a good start.

This is where your digital DSLR comes in handy - you can now set your meter and DSLR on the same ISO. Now take an incident light reading with your new meter. Set your DSLR in Manual Mode and set exactly the readings from your meter( Ignoring any indicated imbalance in the camera meter display) See what you get. Now take the same scene with your DSLR on Aperture Priority and matrix metering, noting any difference in exposure readings. You'll be surprised how often there's a very significant difference between the two images.

Play, play and play some more. ;)
 
CT said:
LOL. It's only has complicated as you want it be Gary - but I do know what you mean. :D

Sit down and play with it - at least have a token go at reading the manual and understanding at least one of the modes - Incident readings would be a good start.

This is where your digital DSLR comes in handy - you can now set your meter and DSLR on the same ISO. Now take an incident light reading with your new meter. Set your DSLR in Manual Mode and set exactly the readings from your meter( Ignoring any indicated imbalance in the camera meter display) See what you get. Now take the same scene with your DSLR on Aperture Priority and matrix metering, noting any difference in exposure readings. You'll be surprised how often there's a very significant difference between the two images.

Play, play and play some more. ;)
Click to expand...

I have a week of Mull, me, and the cameras :) Gonna nail film. I promise.

Gary.
 
EdBray said:
Just a further note to Stew's post above.

The thing that most people don't seem 'to get' is that 'the zone system' is designed to work in conjuction with the developing process, and is really designed for Monochrome use only!

Firstly, everyone should be metering off a known tone, and then setting the camera accordingly, whether it be off a mid grey (zone 5) such as grass, light tarmac, blue sky about 90 degrees from the sun, this would be a straight setting for a correct exposure, if you meter from something darker or lighter say something on zone 3 or zone 7 then you would adjust the exposure accordingly. This is not using the zone system :nono: but many people think it is. It is just correct exposure control!

It is very difficult to use the zone system with 35mm Film as it was primarily developed (pun intended) for sheet film use, but can be used with MF if you have a camera with interchangeble backs and a minimum of 3 of these.

How it works is that you use your experience to decide what is the dynamic range you want for the scene you are taking. If the scene is too contrasty you would under develop the film (-1 known as contraction) to enable the full range of tones to be printed, and if the image was lacking contrast you could over develop the film (+1 known as expansion) to boost the contrast to give a full range of printable tones. Hence the need for 3 backs. Each back would be designated either -1, N, +1 and shots taken accordingly on each. Each film would then be developed seperately according to the required contrast control.

This is much easier to do with sheet film as you can develop each individual sheet

The idea of the zone system is that you have to visualise the final image, expose for a full tonal range and then develop the film to give you that full tonal range, then, using the correct grade of printing paper to fine tune the dynamic range make your perfect print.

If you every get the chance to see a fine 20" x 24" print from one of the exponents of the true zone system, it will blow you away!
Click to expand...

Taking all that into account you can be sure that Ansel Adams would have been into digital .....
 
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