Lighting indoor events, direct flash - technical improvements?

[dancook]

I'd like to improve my technical approach of lighting event work in poorly lit environments, particularly when bounce flash is not an option (in these photos it was not an option, the central ceiling was a tall inverted wooden pyramid)

I've avoided direct flash for so long, opting for 1.2/1.4 primes instead.

Attached are some direct flash examples,

Using 24-70 2.8 Zoom lens
Godox TT685s Flash zoomed to about 70/85 to vignette the lighting
TTL mode
Haven't used a gel, but open to using one.

I have some magmod attachments, the bounce and dome diffusor/reflectors - is there a significantly good reason to use them?

Less importantly, I'm thinking about replacing my flash with something that can keep up with 5 fps and give consistent output (hello profoto) - in case that influences opinions.

 

[swanseamale47]

Off the top of my head I' struggling to come up with anything that will work a 5fps. I was going to suggest an off camera softbox wireless but I cant see that keep up. I'm sure someone else will have a proper idea though.

 

[dancook]

Off the top of my head I' struggling to come up with anything that will work a 5fps. I was going to suggest an off camera softbox wireless but I cant see that keep up. I'm sure someone else will have a proper idea though.

If I was using a prime/fixed focal length, having an off-camera flash held in my left hand could give me some added light direction, but with having to zoom, it sounds fiddly.

I think I read the Profoto A10 can keep up, it'll probably be an improvement on the Godox anyhow - it's not too integral to the solution here, just that I'm considering it in general if it makes a difference to anything suggested

 

[LC2]

Something like this, on camera, would soften the light a little - I've used one, it does eat the flash power

I've moved onto using a small Umbrella held at arms length, which eats far less power and allows for a modicum of light shaping (or you can get someone else to hold it).
But as you say, zooming the lens would be difficult (it's bad enough moving the focus point / changing from single point to eye detect one handed).

 

[Phil V]

2 very separate questions:
What’s better than on camera flash?
You know very well that the answer is off camera flash.
And once flash is off camera, auto zoom isn’t a thing - auto zoom is only a relevant feature for in camera pointed straight ahead flash. It switches off as soon as you tilt the flash head or remove the flash from the camera cos the flash no longer knows where it is in relation to the subject.

I never think of ‘bounce’ as simple up and forward, more often bouncing from behind me or off a wall. But my other option would be hand held away from camera

Q2? If you ‘need’ 5fps, your options are limited, but you probably know that. It’s a question designed to supply a justification.

I sometimes wish for slightly faster flash recycling, but never felt the need for 5fps.

 

[dancook]

2 very separate questions:
What’s better than on camera flash?
You know very well that the answer is off camera flash.
And once flash is off camera, auto zoom isn’t a thing - auto zoom is only a relevant feature for in camera pointed straight ahead flash. It switches off as soon as you tilt the flash head or remove the flash from the camera cos the flash no longer knows where it is in relation to the subject.

I never think of ‘bounce’ as simple up and forward, more often bouncing from behind me or off a wall. But my other option would be hand held away from camera

Q2? If you ‘need’ 5fps, your options are limited, but you probably know that. It’s a question designed to supply a justification.

I sometimes wish for slightly faster flash recycling, but never felt the need for 5fps.

I'll brain dump and see if anything makes sense ..

I often read that the on camera diffusers/reflectors being dismissed as marketing, said that they are still just a tiny light source, that would lead me to conclude that direct flash beats are on-camera modifier for simply not getting in the way, because adding modifiers adds more bulk/weight/cost/and makes you look increasingly odd.

So first and foremost I wondered whether anyone would argue that a particular modifier would greatly improve results, I mentioned the consideration of a change of flash because it may affect the available modifiers. I have since found that you can at least still use the magmod rubber adapter on a round flash head.

With regards to bounce, this environment didn't have much going for it, with distant brick walls. I also thought consistency would be good, rather than make use of an occasional bounce opportunity.

So, if the next improvement is take the flash off camera -

Left hand flash + right hand camera + zoom lens = impedes zooming capability
Left hand flash + right hand camera + 28/35 prime = that'll work nicely (makes me want to buy the Leica q again, perfect for this! maybe I should get the Sony 28/2 )

edit - I could just fix the zoom to ~28 !

Bare flash, or go with a modifier large enough to have an impact on light quality, but doesn't get in the way of me moving around tight spaces......
Hand held or on short extension pole, or long pole.

Going up to having multiple off-camera lights on stands around the room for rim lighting..

As it's already been mentioned, I'll note I'm never going to have an assistant to hold lighting.



I guess in the end I was looking for the optimal tried and tested approach that doesn't get in the way of photographing candid moments.



With regards to 5fps flash I had, the other day for example, 20 minutes of the headmasters time to shoot multiple group photos of him with students and portraits of him around a new development. The idea being he talks to them, we try to get everyone smiling and then when we get a moment of natural smiles I blast them at 5fps looking for that shot with perfect smiles, eyes, expressions, across them all. 12 students, 3 at a time, 3 locations - swap them around as soon as I think we have something. Due to the short amount of time I opted to bounce on camera flash off the ceiling instead of having an external flash to manage. The lighting was good, when it triggered, it just didn't keep up with 5fps.

 

[dancook]

All this being said, I like the idea of left hand flash, right hand fixed focal length - will allow for more interesting lighting without over complicating things and getting in the way.

I do so many different types of event photography that I have no idea when I will next get a job that requires me to implement this approach and if left to my own thought cycle it'll just be another thing which stops me from sleeping !

my brain needs rewiring to be fair.

 

[wiltw]

In order to keep up with 2fps, you flash can only shoot at 1/2 power max, for 1 sec. before it HAS TO recycle!
In order to keep up with 4fps, you flash can only shoot at 1/4 power max, for 1 sec. before it HAS TO recycle!
You can extrapolate fps rate vs. power (an inverse relationship).

Even studio flash can only recharge itself in 1 sec. Most battery powered speedlights take 2 sec. to recycle even with supplementary power packs feeding in electricity.

This photo shows what a tiny modifier (5" x 7") can do for 'softening' light, when shooting at a distance of 20'

...minisucle elimination/softening of shadows cast by flash with 5" x 7" light modifier!

This phoo shows what a 16" x 20" modifier can to for 'softening light, when shooting at a distance of 20'

I used to shoot medium format SLR using a Metz 45CT 'potatomasher' flash and 15"x20" softbox poised over lens axis so that shadows cast by flash were not visible to the lens. The 16"x20" softbox material had noticeably yellowed in the 30 years since I used to use it for weddings and receptions, which is why that photo is 'warmer' than the smaller 5"x7" softbox.

 

[Phil V]

In order to keep up with 2fps, you flash can only shoot at 1/2 power max, for 1 sec. before it HAS TO recycle!
In order to keep up with 4fps, you flash can only shoot at 1/4 power max, for 1 sec. before it HAS TO recycle!
You can extrapolate fps rate vs. power (an inverse relationship).

Even studio flash can only recharge itself in 1 sec. Most battery powered speedlights take 2 sec. to recycle even with supplementary power packs feeding in electricity.

You do realise that all of those calculations become model specific?

Whilst you’re right about the relationship, it’s also true that some flashes definitely recycle faster than others, and something like a Lencarta or Godox quick flash will fire at greater power than a speedlight at 10fps. It may not be ‘full power’ but it’ll be brighter than a speedlight.

 

[wiltw]

You do realise that all of those calculations become model specific?

Whilst you’re right about the relationship, it’s also true that some flashes definitely recycle faster than others, and something like a Lencarta or Godox quick flash will fire at greater power than a speedlight at 10fps. It may not be ‘full power’ but it’ll be brighter than a speedlight.

The generality, regardless of specific model and brand, is that NO FLASH can keep on firing for long, before depleting the power capacitor, as the charge rate is NEVER suiificient to keep up with fps firing rate. The fastest studio flash still takes 1 second to deplete a fully discharged power capacitor. And stroboscopic flash rates in commercially available photographic units are never ever at higher power than 1/8 power, and if it did it would endanger itself due to excessive heat buildup.

 

[Phil V]

This would be my choice too (oh wait it was my choice well the older version anyway). I'd prefer the 600J version, however it's only half a stop at a given flash duration. It can easily keep up with my D850 at 7fps at 1/4 power (150J - about the same as 2 SB900's at full power). As with all IGBT flashes, the capacitors are always charging, so as long as you pause between bursts, it'll be ready. If you do empty the capacitors completely, it'll fire again as soon as the minimum amount of charge is available for the output you have dialed in. I can't remember the last time I overshot the 3 SuperFast 600's I have. I've had them (previous version of yours) for 6 years and they're still going strong. I've replaced 2 glass domes, one flash tube and 2 modelling bulbs in that time, but all of those failures were accidental damage - and Lenacrta are very quick at sending out spares).

Here's what I thought in 2014 when I used them for the first time on a shoot:-
https://owenlloydphotography.com/?p=1554

..and later shooting some promo videos for Lencarta
https://owenlloydphotography.com/?p=1685
https://owenlloydphotography.com/?p=1699

and this last one, which also has a picture of Garry hoovering up flour in the warehouse...
https://owenlloydphotography.com/?p=1732

@wiltw have a look at the above.
Yes it will only empty the capacitor, and the Lencarta version appears to be discontinued, but I think the Godox is still available and bursts of 7fps easily meet the need in the question

 

[wiltw]

@wiltw have a look at the above.
Yes it will only empty the capacitor, and the Lencarta version appears to be discontinued, but I think the Godox is still available and bursts of 7fps easily meet the need in the question

OK, thanks for evidence that there is a unit capable of 7fps at 1/4 power...technology moves on and products evolve. It would be interesting to learn precisely HOW MANY flash bursts at 1/4 power and 7fps it is capable of outputting before waiting for recycle time, and specific mention of brand and model (the quote somewhat vague about that).

 

[Phil V]

OK, thanks for evidence that there is a unit capable of 7fps at 1/4 power...technology moves on and products evolve. It would be interesting to learn precisely HOW MANY flash bursts at 1/4 power and 7fps it is capable of outputting before waiting for recycle time, and specific mention of brand and model (the quote somewhat vague about that).

@Scooter might be able to give more detail re the bursts.
But the brand and model are clear in the discussion I linked.
It’s a Lencarta Superfast, related to the Godox QT series.

But back to Dans original question, there’s also a Profoto that’ll fit the brief and is part of his thinking.

 

[TimHughes]

I'd like to improve my technical approach of lighting event work in poorly lit environments, particularly when bounce flash is not an option (in these photos it was not an option, the central ceiling was a tall inverted wooden pyramid)

I've avoided direct flash for so long, opting for 1.2/1.4 primes instead.

Attached are some direct flash examples,

Using 24-70 2.8 Zoom lens
Godox TT685s Flash zoomed to about 70/85 to vignette the lighting
TTL mode
Haven't used a gel, but open to using one.

I have some magmod attachments, the bounce and dome diffusor/reflectors - is there a significantly good reason to use them?

Less importantly, I'm thinking about replacing my flash with something that can keep up with 5 fps and give consistent output (hello profoto) - in case that influences opinions.

TT685 uses AA batteries, no? Switching to V860 with lithium battery will give more power and faster recycle time. Adding PB960 battery pack with both outputs combined will improve it more. My V860 can manage more or less unlimited shooting at 1/16th power and almost 5fps at 1/8th.

When bouncing won't work, I go for direct TTL flash, shutter speed quite slow, say 1/60th, ISO for the ambient and flash exposure compensation -2. If the people are moving a lot it may need a faster shutter and higher ISO. Domes and small diffusers don't really work. To have an effect the modifier needs to be quite large and I find that a hassle.

 

[imattersuk]

Rotolight, plenty powerful enough, zero recycle time, don’t listen to the naysayers, suggest you go on one of the free walks / days they organise. I’ve used it with Fujifilm, Sony and Leica, it’s brilliant.

 

[TimHughes]

Rotolight, plenty powerful enough, zero recycle time, don’t listen to the naysayers, suggest you go on one of the free walks / days they organise. I’ve used it with Fujifilm, Sony and Leica, it’s brilliant.

interesting - and working with electronic shutters too.... not too disturbing in use? what sort of flash power equivalence?

 

[imattersuk]

interesting - and working with electronic shutters too.... not too disturbing in use? what sort of flash power equivalence?

To be honest I’m a 99% natural light shooter no matter how challenging, but whenever I’ve used a rotolight in something like edge of dance floor or corporate event it’s always been more than adequate and that’s the Neo 2, the newer Neo 3 Pro is awesome and has a lot of features plus they are great as a continuous light. When I had Sony I used a small rig cage with the light mounted at 45 degrees and the Elinchrom trigger on the camera hot shoe. I’ll try and dig out a couple of shots tomorrow.

 

[Scooter]

@Scooter might be able to give more detail re the bursts.
But the brand and model are clear in the discussion I linked.
It’s a Lencarta Superfast, related to the Godox QT series.

But back to Dans original question, there’s also a Profoto that’ll fit the brief and is part of his thinking.

They are Lencarta SF600's which are based on the original QT600 as far as I know. I think Lencarta modified them to create a better compromise between flash duration and colour consistency across the power range (so somewhat ironically, they are a bit slower than the QT's) They have a 600Watt power supply and so whilst discharging ~150J every 1/7 of a second they are also putting in ~86J for a net discharge of ~64J. Assuming you start with a full charge of 600J, it'll do a burst of just over 9 shots at quarter power before emptying the tank completely (or a burst of roughly 1.3 seconds - which is normally enough for a leaping dancer for example. Tbh, I never shoot like this though - the flash duration was more important to me - I just shoot one frame per leap.

 

[wiltw]

They are Lencarta SF600's which are based on the original QT600 as far as I know. I think Lencarta modified them to create a better compromise between flash duration and colour consistency across the power range (so somewhat ironically, they are a bit slower than the QT's) They have a 600Watt power supply and so whilst discharging ~150J every 1/7 of a second they are also putting in ~86J for a net discharge of ~64J. Assuming you start with a full charge of 600J, it'll do a burst of just over 9 shots at quarter power before emptying the tank completely (or a burst of roughly 1.3 seconds - which is normally enough for a leaping dancer for example. Tbh, I never shoot like this though - the flash duration was more important to me - I just shoot one frame per leap.

Thank you much for the breakdown of energy used vs. what is put back in, and the estimation of number of shots at 7fps

 

[Phil V]

They are Lencarta SF600's which are based on the original QT600 as far as I know. I think Lencarta modified them to create a better compromise between flash duration and colour consistency across the power range (so somewhat ironically, they are a bit slower than the QT's) They have a 600Watt power supply and so whilst discharging ~150J every 1/7 of a second they are also putting in ~86J for a net discharge of ~64J. Assuming you start with a full charge of 600J, it'll do a burst of just over 9 shots at quarter power before emptying the tank completely (or a burst of roughly 1.3 seconds - which is normally enough for a leaping dancer for example. Tbh, I never shoot like this though - the flash duration was more important to me - I just shoot one frame per leap.

I knew I could rely on you for the absolute breakdown Owen.

Thanks, that’s brilliant

 

[imattersuk]

interesting - and working with electronic shutters too.... not too disturbing in use? what sort of flash power equivalence?

You can vary the power on all the Rotolights, I wouldn't use one outside for fill flash but indoors being able to adjust it to give a subtle boost is very handy. Image below looks soft because i've cropped and reduced file size to upload it here but you'll get an idea on the lighting. I think there's a Rotolight event coming up in London soon and they also demo at The Photography Show in March at The NEC.

 

[bovey9]

I also use a rotolight . A handy thing to have in the bag