Lightweight Portable Lighting System

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dancook

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So I learnt a few things shooting comic con at the weekend (for my own enjoyment)

Using YN-E3-RT with 2 x Canon 600EX-RT on Sony A7S

1) A beauty dish is much easier to manage in one hand when not on a monopod
2) I forget to increase ISO for small group shots, as this would be easier than trying to change flash settings manually
3) I forget to increase ISO for people with darker skin or predominately dress in black
4) Battery replacement, waiting for the odd flash recycle causes me to miss shots and bail out of some photo opportunities.

I've seen from profoto threads professionals might not be so much of a fan of TTL and call it a consumer gimmick, but I think it would be pretty ideal for what I'm doing.
It would mean having to use my 5DM3 though, as TTL isn't support on Sony.

The lighting system would also be a good investment for weddings, indoor and outdoor portrait work.

I love the look I get from my Kacey 22inch Beauty Dish, but bigger and better is good too!


So other than Profoto B2, are there any other suggestions for me to look at ?

Cheers
 
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I'm not aware of anything else with TTL.

Plenty of neat systems without it, including Godox, Lencarta, Broncolor Mobil, Profoto acuteb, B1 or B2, elinchrom quadras
 
I'd have to say it took me a while to come to the conclusion that Manual flash wasn't such a PITA, if you remember that once you have your settings nailed you can actually move all kinds of things, so long as your subject to flash distance is constant.

I grew up on auto (thryistor) flash with leaf shutters, which was later replaced by ETTL and HSS. I put up with it's imperfections because it was 'easy', but now I realise that the auto bit is actually taking over something often quite straightforward and then adding it's own quirks
dancook said:
...I forget to increase ISO for people with darker skin or predominately dress in black...
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increasing ISO wouldn't have helped - you'd need to increase FEC.
and
dancook said:
... I forget to increase ISO for small group shots, as this would be easier than trying to change flash settings manually
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Actually, increasing ISO or the flash output would both be as easy here Manually here as using ETTL.
Then add you can use it with both camera systems...

IMO we need ETTL for events (particularly weddings), but when you're shooting the kind of static setups you posted recently, fully Manual would be fine if not more efficient than ETTL.

An AD360 in the beauty dish would be a much better option than the 600 ex rt, but keep the 600 for on camera bounce use (calculating bounce distances and surface reflectivity is a stupid option that's better covered with ETTL).
 
there's the phottix indra 500 for ttl, I'm sure I saw at least one other similar head also but can't remember name.

Is the primary reason for the change power or ttl though? If it's ttl primarily couldn't you just use your current flash with the 5d to see if ttl is needed. Then if you need more power and ttl you're options are pretty restricted but you know you need it but if you just need more power there's then a lot more options.
 
Phil V said:
increasing ISO wouldn't have helped - you'd need to increase FEC.
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I was on manual flash, can't do TTL with the Sony and this setup.

Phil V said:
IMO we need ETTL for events (particularly weddings), but when you're shooting the kind of static setups you posted recently, fully Manual would be fine if not more efficient than ETTL.
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Are you referring to the Comic Con images? those images were taking all over excel, it might seem static because I'm showing what my setup was primed for, half-body single person portraits. ETTL would give versatility for group shots and varying distance shots where my lighting suffered. Alternatively having more time/experience/hands I could have changed settings on the fly - but I had those in limited amounts :)
 
Does the 5D mk3 trigger the 600EX-RT wirelessly? Would you need anything else?
 
Byker28i said:
Does the 5D mk3 trigger the 600EX-RT wirelessly? Would you need anything else?
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With the transmitter YN-E3-RT and it will use TTL as well.

CraigDHD said:
there's the phottix indra 500 for ttl, I'm sure I saw at least one other similar head also but can't remember name.

Is the primary reason for the change power or ttl though? If it's ttl primarily couldn't you just use your current flash with the 5d to see if ttl is needed. Then if you need more power and ttl you're options are pretty restricted but you know you need it but if you just need more power there's then a lot more options.
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Reduce down time with flash recycling and battery replacement.
Power that I can use it for outdoor portraits too.
Change light modifier for something bigger and better.. speed-light options are limited
Not so heavy I cannot hand hold.

I just feel it would be more reliable
 
Phil V said:
An AD360 in the beauty dish would be a much better option than the 600 ex rt, but keep the 600 for on camera bounce use (calculating bounce distances and surface reflectivity is a stupid option that's better covered with ETTL).
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I was trying to remember what this was, and they come with battery packs too. So it might be the cost effective option :)
 
dancook said:
I was trying to remember what this was, and they come with battery packs too. So it might be the cost effective option :)
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AS per a recent thread, you need to check the various sellers against what's included (triggers, warranty etc) IMO the Lencarta with a 3 year warranty sits at one end whilst you can get a bare pack straight from HK with no warranty at the other.
 
dancook said:
...Are you referring to the Comic Con images? those images were taking all over excel, it might seem static because I'm showing what my setup was primed for, half-body single person portraits. ETTL would give versatility for group shots and varying distance shots where my lighting suffered. Alternatively having more time/experience/hands I could have changed settings on the fly - but I had those in limited amounts :)
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Aah! I see your point now, the advice stands though, if it's close to 'static' use Manual (you do soon learn distance / aperture or ISO relationship), if you're completely lost re distance, use ETTL but you have to remember it's limitations (TTL metering being sensitive to subject reflectance - it can also be over sensitive to bright background objects).
 
Power pack wise I have a godox for my 580, worked well powering the flash all day at a wedding Saturday.

dancook said:
Oh and whilst the 5DM3 gives me TTL, I don't have a 35mm lens for it - so that's one thing :)
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Though you had a 40mm pancake?
 
Byker28i said:
Power pack wise I have a godox for my 580, worked well powering the flash all day at a wedding Saturday.

Though you had a 40mm pancake?
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I didn't consider the Canon's could have power packs, my excitement is deflated by not getting new stuff though..

I have the 40mm pancake, I was never that impressed by it - I suppose I could do a comparison shoot to know whether it's any good.

This will be comparing it to a 35mm 1.4 Zeiss Distagon lens though, both stopped down - so ..
 
If you get the Atom you can also get a lead that powers the top-end Canon flashguns, and which not only produces a vast number of flashes but also recycles the 580 in just one second - full power:)

A couple of years ago Godox were planning to introduce TTL for their portable flashes but it has come to nothing so far and I doubt whether it ever will - there is some marketing benefit in it for them but my own view of TTL is that is is little more than a marketing benefit, because it employs a 'fuzzy logic' that is always going to be vastly inferior to the real logic of a real photographer - it will stop the flash contribution from being hopelessly wrong, but will very rarely produce the exposure that we really want it to...
 
If you really want TTL in an AD360 type of unit, look into Quantum units. Huge price jump just to get TTL though.
Personally, I think the comicon type subjects are largely enthusiastic/cooperative enough that TTL isn't really needed.

The AD360 (or rebrand) is *very* easy to adjust power (even remotely w/ the FT-1). Another way to quickly adapt in a varying situation is to put the camera into full manual and adjust the aperture or ISO for changes in distance (2x or 1/2 = 2 stops... I'll use 1 stop for 1/2 changes and accept the error). The last way is to put the camera into an automatic mode and let the flash contribution fall off at larger distances. The difference is between getting "the shot" and getting "your shot."

If the situation requires TTL, or you just want it, then I'd stick with a speedlight... but I'm not sure an external pack is worth the hassles over just rotating a few sets of batteries (i.e. eneloop pro); particularly if you are handholding the light. A pack is good if you *need* faster recycle times (higher power shooting) or if you can't risk having the speedlight batteries die at an inopportune moment. But the recycle times are not reduced to being negligible; plus having a cable, the added weight, and another thing attached to your body are drawbacks.

As I stated in the other post... if I were doing this I would probably have the camera, AD360 (by extension arm), and battery all attached to a monopod. Otherwise I would probably just use a speedlight handheld like you did.
 
dancook said:
3) I forget to increase ISO for people with darker skin or predominately dress in black
Cheers
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Phil V said:
increasing ISO wouldn't have helped - you'd need to increase FEC.
and Actually, increasing ISO or the flash output would both be as easy here Manually here as using ETTL.
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I'm sure I've misunderstood something here (it certainly wouldn't be the first time!), but why would one need to change exposure in any way just because of the subject's skin colour or because they're wearing black or white?
If one needed different FEC or whatever for white and black subjects one could never get a properly exposed photo of a black and a white person next to each other.
If you take an incident meter reading at a black face, a white face, a black tux or a white dress in the same light, the reading will be the same for each.
 
Nionyn said:
I'm sure I've misunderstood something here (it certainly wouldn't be the first time!), but why would one need to change exposure in any way just because of the subject's skin colour or because they're wearing black or white?
If one needed different FEC or whatever for white and black subjects one could never get a properly exposed photo of a black and a white person next to each other.
If you take an incident meter reading at a black face, a white face, a black tux or a white dress in the same light, the reading will be the same for each.
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I could be wrong there, and probably paying too much attention to the LCD on the back of the camera. It is probably also because black background and black subject don't contrast very well.
 
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Nionyn said:
I'm sure I've misunderstood something here (it certainly wouldn't be the first time!), but why would one need to change exposure in any way just because of the subject's skin colour or because they're wearing black or white?
If one needed different FEC or whatever for white and black subjects one could never get a properly exposed photo of a black and a white person next to each other.
If you take an incident meter reading at a black face, a white face, a black tux or a white dress in the same light, the reading will be the same for each.
Click to expand...

You might need to alter the Flash Exposure Compensation, because when it's metering it's assuming an 'average' subject. In exactly the same way you'd use exposure compensation for light or dark subjects in ambient light.

A reflected meter reading will vary dependant on the subject. an incident meter measures the light falling on the subject. To follow that through to flash, once your lighting and subject distance are all set (with Manually set flash output), then any changes in subject are irrelevant. But if you're using TTL flash metering the flash output will attempt to compensate for the different subjects.

"If you take an incident meter reading at a black face, a white face, a black tux or a white dress in the same light, the reading will be the same for each." But we're not talking about an incident reading, we're discussing ETTL
 
Nionyn said:
But Dan wasn't using any flavour of TTL on this shoot, according to his third post in the thread.
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But we were discussing the pro's and cons of portable ETTL flash systems. I wasn't really being specific about a certain set of images, though I did reference them and Dan pointed out his problems weren't in direct response to those images. The text you quoted clearly was around ETTL metering, it might have helped had you not snipped it, and read the whole thing to save confusion.
 
Nionyn said:
Now I'm confused...
My first post, and the text I quoted in it, were not about TTL but only about Dan's statement:



I still don't see where I was wrong.

I certainly didn't intend to confuse matters - sorry if I did! :)
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:beer: time for beer.
No apologies necessary :)
 
Here was a photo using the same settings as everyone else :) might have not had the beauty dish close enough - but still, I felt people in black could have done with an ISO increase.

View attachment 38257
 
dancook said:
Here was a photo using the same settings as everyone else :) might have not had the beauty dish close enough - but still, I felt people in black could have done with an ISO increase.

View attachment 38257
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The flash did not fire in that shot
 
Phil V said:
time for beer.
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Don't mind if I do... I'll have a half! :D

dancook said:
Here was a photo using the same settings as everyone else :) might have not had the beauty dish close enough - but still, I felt people in black could have done with an ISO increase.

View attachment 38257
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Well, that really is a little on the dark side... ;)
As Jim suggests above, doesn't look like the flash fired at all there.

If the background was as dark in all your other photos as it was in that one, though, I'd have suggested raising your ISO for all of them, really, enough to get a bit more of the b/g registering. Would have saved you in flash batteries and helped with your recycle time problems too.
 
admirable said:
The flash did not fire in that shot
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The meta data won't show it, but I believe it did, I could be wrong - but I was comparing it to the other shots in LR I took of Vadar. Doesn't matter though, I will see what happens next time.
 
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Nionyn said:
But Dan wasn't using any flavour of TTL on this shoot, according to his third post in the thread.
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With manual exposures black will be "black" and white will be "white." And that leads to the potential of clipping and a loss of detail... IMO, it is preferable to slightly underexpose whites and slightly overexpose darks if they are the predominant tones.

In this case, with the exposure set to drop the ambient/BG to black, it might be possible to make a suitable adjustment using only FEC... But in reality one would want to adjust both exposures.
 
dancook said:
A dark background is what I wanted for this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/62198876@N02/sets/72157652911594820
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Ah, fair enough - and those do look good.
I presume you've processed those because, in the Vader pic you posted above what I take to be the venue's lighting units in the ceiling show up, whereas in your gallery they don't.
I still reckon your flash (flashes?) probably didn't fire in your Vader example, however, since even the specular reflections are very underexposed - and you would expect those to still hit the "blinkies" if the flash had fired at all, if everything else stayed the same - even if the flash to subject distance changed a bit.
No worries, though. As you say, this was for your own enjoyment, and you definitely got some good photos from it. :)
 
Nionyn said:
Ah, fair enough - and those do look good.
I presume you've processed those because, in the Vader pic you posted above what I take to be the venue's lighting units in the ceiling show up, whereas in your gallery they don't.
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Yup all photos have been processed, yes I had to clone out the ceiling lights in all photos - and I had to burn the background a bit to get rid of faint signs of people behind.
 
dancook said:
Yup all photos have been processed, yes I had to clone out the ceiling lights in all photos - and I had to burn the background a bit to get rid of faint signs of people behind.
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If you'd dropped the ambient even further, there'd have been less need for the PP, but then you'd need more flash power. The 360 should do it in a beauty dish but I doubt a speedlight in a BD would.

A Safari 2 would easily do it; I've had mine out in some dark places lately and been frustrated that i couldn't collect a bit more ambient due to its power.
 
Phil V said:
If you'd dropped the ambient even further, there'd have been less need for the PP, but then you'd need more flash power. The 360 should do it in a beauty dish but I doubt a speedlight in a BD would.

A Safari 2 would easily do it; I've had mine out in some dark places lately and been frustrated that i couldn't collect a bit more ambient due to its power.
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I can attach 2 speedlights to the BD, but even still I'd be pushing to to around full power if that were even enough, so not ideal.
 
dancook said:
I can attach 2 speedlights to the BD, but even still I'd be pushing to to around full power if that were even enough, so not ideal.
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I'll add; if you're going for perfection (and you should be, because you're good enough), beauty dishes are designed around the placement of a bare bulb, and it could be argued that a speedlight or 2 isn't ever going to do the same job.

I'm beginning to wish I'd added that to my comparison list :(
 
Phil V said:
I'll add; if you're going for perfection (and you should be, because you're good enough), beauty dishes are designed around the placement of a bare bulb, and it could be argued that a speedlight or 2 isn't ever going to do the same job.

I'm beginning to wish I'd added that to my comparison list :(
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Cheers, I definitely want to perfect it in anyway I can.

I don't know how good the light can get, but could I improve with an alternative modifier - deeper beauty dish or larger? I see there are collapsible ones, but I assume they really aren't the same.
 
a beauty dish is quite a specific tool as far as modifiers go, it's quite a dramatic light that takes no prisoners. Used on a lady who's not a pro model and young, leaves you lots of skin cleaning to do. Great for blokes though, and for dramatically lighting a 'character', as you've found.

A softbox is more versatile and lighter, but they're not interchangeable as tools, you need the right one for the job. I've considered the collapsible BD, but my BD is almost always gridded, and I can't imagine a collapsible BD with a fine grid on the front. It doesn't make sense in my head. I'm just about to modify a grid for use with my speedlight softbox, can't wait to see the results.
 
Phil V said:
A softbox is more versatile and lighter, but they're not interchangeable as tools, you need the right one for the job. I've considered the collapsible BD, but my BD is almost always gridded, and I can't imagine a collapsible BD with a fine grid on the front. It doesn't make sense in my head. I'm just about to modify a grid for use with my speedlight softbox, can't wait to see the results.
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I almost always use the diffusion sock, I prefer the catch lights for one. I have a grid attachment - but from memory it makes things harder work for the speedlight. Maybe i'd use it more if I had more power
 
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I've moved from speedlights to the AD360, nice and light to carry about, plenty of power and with an s fit adapter I can use better modifiers.

No ttl though but I rarely used in indoors anyway.
 
Phil V said:
a beauty dish is quite a specific tool as far as modifiers go, it's quite a dramatic light that takes no prisoners. Used on a lady who's not a pro model and young, leaves you lots of skin cleaning to do. Great for blokes though, and for dramatically lighting a 'character', as you've found.

A softbox is more versatile and lighter, but they're not interchangeable as tools, you need the right one for the job. I've considered the collapsible BD, but my BD is almost always gridded, and I can't imagine a collapsible BD with a fine grid on the front. It doesn't make sense in my head. I'm just about to modify a grid for use with my speedlight softbox, can't wait to see the results.
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The collapsible ones currently available don't produce a light that's anything like a beauty dish, they only have 8 ribs and so there is a large flat area between each rib, which just bounces around at entirely the wrong angles - and anyway the shape of them is wrong.

But, if the quality of the design was right then there is no reason why an effective honeycomb couldn't be fitted.
dancook said:
I almost always use the diffusion sock, I prefer the catch lights for one. I have a grid attachment - but from memory it makes things harder work for the speedlight. Maybe i'd use it more if I had more power
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Well, with the diffusion sock fitted it really just becomes a softbox. And, as Phil pointed out, beauty dishes need to be used with lights that are barebulb anyway. They work perfectly well with the Atom, the extra power helps but the real difference is that the Atom is barebulb.
 
dancook said:
I almost always use the diffusion sock, I prefer the catch lights for one. I have a grid attachment - but from memory it makes things harder work for the speedlight. Maybe i'd use it more if I had more power
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A BD with a sock is pretty close to being a softbox. You're carrying a lot more weight and packed size than you need to for very little gain, a small Octo would give close to the same result for less than half the weight and it'll pack away properly. You could even get a circular insert for the front if you're picky.

Edit: cross posted, but at least you know I wasn't making it up. :)
 
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