Lilliput Magazine

PeterSpencer

PeterSpencer

Messages
1,355
Name
Peter
Edit My Images
Yes
I read a book about Picture Post recently and saw that it was co-founded by the photojournalist Stefan Lorant who had previously founded Lilliput Magazine. I happen to have a few copies of Lilliput and have been browsing them. In the process I came across a few photography related items which I hope you like.

Photograph_ViewCamera_1 copy.jpg

Photograph_ViewCamera_2 copy.jpg
 
I was wondering how "fast" that Ilford Selo film was. A quick Google threw 30° Sch. at me but I'm not sure what that translates to in terms of ASA or ISO.
 
droj said:
Last one is somewhat topical ...!
Click to expand...
Yes, that's probably why it struck me. But the juxstaposition is between the anonymous photographer with the focussing cloth over his head and the anonymous woman. However you look at it, it's an interesting picture and, as you say, has a contemporary twist.
 
I had look on the interweb, inevitably.

James's Light Meter Collection: Obsolete Exposure Index Table

A few words about the Capital light meter
www.jollinger.com

From one source Scheiner was named after the German scientist Jules Scheiner, who was a pioneer of sensitometry. The logrithmic Scheiner scales were very popular in Europe and were the basis of the DIN scale. Scheiner scales are commonly found on pre-WW2 German meters. After the war they're replaced by DIN. There are two versions of Scheiner: European and American. Why—I don't know. If your meter is marked in Scheiner, you need to try to determine which version it actually is..

Not very helpful except there is a table lower down and, at a guess, 30 Euro Scheiner is 40 ASA. I hope the SELO was very forgiving given the low sensitivity.
 
PeterSpencer said:
I had look on the interweb, inevitably.

James's Light Meter Collection: Obsolete Exposure Index Table

A few words about the Capital light meter
www.jollinger.com

From one source Scheiner was named after the German scientist Jules Scheiner, who was a pioneer of sensitometry. The logrithmic Scheiner scales were very popular in Europe and were the basis of the DIN scale. Scheiner scales are commonly found on pre-WW2 German meters. After the war they're replaced by DIN. There are two versions of Scheiner: European and American. Why—I don't know. If your meter is marked in Scheiner, you need to try to determine which version it actually is..

Not very helpful except there is a table lower down and, at a guess, 30 Euro Scheiner is 40 ASA. I hope the SELO was very forgiving given the low sensitivity.
Click to expand...


I had a quick furtle too. I did find one conversion table but it didn't cover the Scheiner scale. It mentioned that a 3° increase was a doubling in sensitivity! As you say, 30° European Sch. seems to be 40 ASA - probably quite fast for the period!

My interest in this is pure curiosity - I have similar curiosity about the differences between Whitworth and UNC threads and the like!
 
Last edited:
For what it's worth, I have a 1960-61 catalogue that lists film speeds only in Scheiner and BS log. For ASA etc. it's necessary to go to the conversion table.

FP3 had a Scheiner speed of 31/32, the equivalent of 100 ASA. So Selo as given was more like 80 ASA.

The catalogue lists Selochrome Pan (in roll film) as 33 Sch or 125ASA.
 
This is where the 2 Sheiner speeds get confusing! ASA is an American standard so it's possible that your catalogue is referring to the American Scheiner speed rather than the European. However, the BS log reference points at the European option...:runaway:

Peter's link to the James's table puts 31/32° Sheiner (Am) as 200/250 ASA and Sheiner (Eu) as 50/64 ASA. 33 Sch. translates (on the same table) as 320 or 80 ASA respectively. No wonder my brain hurts!!!
 
PeterSpencer said:
Yes, that's probably why it struck me. But the juxstaposition is between the anonymous photographer with the focussing cloth over his head and the anonymous woman. However you look at it, it's an interesting picture and, as you say, has a contemporary twist.
Click to expand...
Re: But the juxstaposition… Lilliput, which I read back in the day (though it was my parents that bought it) had a regular item called juxstapositions which was two photos on facing pages as far as I remember.
 
PeterSpencer said:
I had look on the interweb, inevitably.

James's Light Meter Collection: Obsolete Exposure Index Table

A few words about the Capital light meter
www.jollinger.com

From one source Scheiner was named after the German scientist Jules Scheiner, who was a pioneer of sensitometry. The logrithmic Scheiner scales were very popular in Europe and were the basis of the DIN scale. Scheiner scales are commonly found on pre-WW2 German meters. After the war they're replaced by DIN. There are two versions of Scheiner: European and American. Why—I don't know. If your meter is marked in Scheiner, you need to try to determine which version it actually is..

Not very helpful except there is a table lower down and, at a guess, 30 Euro Scheiner is 40 ASA. I hope the SELO was very forgiving given the low sensitivity.
Click to expand...
Scheiner (and similar) was so much better than the current mad ISO. Were already up to 100,000 ISO I think, how long before cameras will need bigger screens just to display the speed on one line?
 
Last edited:
The different film speed rating systems (Scheiner, DIN, and H&D) were determined according to different methods. Simply put, the film speed would depend on the characteristic curve of the film; Sch were basically calibrated to an exposure that would just give a detectable density on development. A little thought shows that this may not be the best method if you want a full tonal range; the system was developed for astronomical use to record stars. Placing the speed right at the bottom of the toe of the curve would mean that shadow details would scarcely be distinguished.

This diversity of measurement method really means that there cannot be an objective conversion between systems based on translating numbers. It depends on the film. I would stick with the numbers I quoted as they came from a catalogue intended to show products on sale, and the only film speeds used were Sch and BS log.

A possible reason for the discrepancy is the rerating of ASA speeds in the early 1960s, when the built in safety factor was dropped and speeds doubled overnight - without any change in sensitivity! Possibly a double correction applied? (And, no, I can't explain the FP3 speed unless the conversion table was adjusted to take into account the soon to be implemented rating change. I think that happened in 1961, but I haven't checked.

And one degree difference is the change from 50ASA to 64ASA (or 64-> 80). Not a lot, given the approximate conversion.
 
sphexx said:
Re: But the juxstaposition… Lilliput, which I read back in the day (though it was my parents that bought it) had a regular item called juxstapositions which was two photos on facing pages as far as I remember.
Click to expand...
Yes those photographic juxstapositions are a characteristic of Lilliput. Here is an example (sorry the scan is skewed).

Juxstaposition.jpg

More often than not they were of a humorous or satirical kind rather than overtly political.
 
PeterSpencer said:
Yes those photographic juxstapositions are a characteristic of Lilliput. Here is an example (sorry the scan is skewed).

View attachment 342895

More often than not they were of a humorous or satirical kind rather than overtly political.
Click to expand...
Yes, humourless is what I remember. The example you post is striking isn’t it. I can see it causing trouble if it was published nowadays :(.
 
sphexx said:
Yes, humourless is what I remember. The example you post is striking isn’t it. I can see it causing trouble if it was published nowadays :(.
Click to expand...
I'm slightly too young to be a member of the Lilliput generation :naughty: - but I came across a book about the magazine in the middle of the 1960s.

It seems that Lorrant, having been imprisoned by Hitler, never lost his hatred of the Nazis. This is one reason why Lorrant came to Britain and founded Lilliput, which was decidedly anti-Nazi. This made him something of a problem for the British Appeasers and he was refused British citizenship.

He founded Picture Post with Edward Hutton in 1938 but sold out to his partner in 1940 and moved on to America.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I'm slightly too young to be a member of the Lilliput generation :naughty: - but I came across a book about the magazine in the middle of the 1960s.

It seems that Lorrant, having been imprisoned by Hitler, never lost his hatred of the Nazis. This is one reason why Lorrant came to Britain and founded Lilliput, which was decidedly anti-Nazi. This made him something of a problem for the British Appeasers and he was refused British citizenship.

He founded Picture Post with Edward Hutton in 1938 but sold out to his partner in 1940 and moved on to America.
Click to expand...
I think Picture Post and Lilliput probably set my interest in images. Perhaps more in documentary from P Post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top