Looking for a photographer for music video shoot. (Newcastle)

[grum]

I do not need to take a step back i am very happy with my syance on people who cause nothing but problems to an industry that would be thriving if it was not for people who do not want to pay the rates.

So calling other photographers 'stupid', 'so-called photographers', and 'mugs', and other members of the public 'pi55-takers' is perfectly acceptable conduct for professionals?

Certainly not the way I would choose to represent a business in public.

It's a simple question of supply and demand in a market economy. Lots of people want to do what they see as fun, creative work such as photography, thus driving down prices for those working in that industry. It comes across as immature tbh to start insulting people because you don't seem to be able to deal with that basic fact. :shrug:

 

[jamesb84]

B

 

[Top Cat]

Some pretty crappy attitudes by a lot of people on there. You crapheads

Anyway, I'd love to do it if I could. Partly because it sounds interesting, and I'm very much familiar with music videos (I used to make them myself!) and also because I've done production stills before for ITN and for corporate selection of DVD's, and a short film. So this would be great to add to my portfolio, and develop my skills. I'm pretty familiar to both worlds, however, I'm also just a student on the opposite end of the country, so unless you can pay my train fare, and buy me a sandwhich...I don't think I can sacrifice that much besides time.

And I'm not offering my time because I want to usurp any professionals...it's because no professionals will sodding let me assist them for experience! So this is the next best thing...from my newbie amateur perspective.

 

[Simmotino]

Interesting thread.

I wonder how many in the 'never do it for free' camp would think twice if they were offered the chance to shoot something they had always wanted to or, say, were asked to shoot some images from the rear seat in a Spitfire (random, I know, but it makes a point! )

You see, the term 'payment' isn't always about pounds and pence for some. An invitation to an otherwise inaccessible event/area or the chance to experience something they wouldn't otherwise have opportunity to is all the 'payment' some need.

If you don't want to do it without putting in an invoice, don't, but don't chastise those who will.

 

[ding76uk]

tbh it comes across as pretty unprofessional. I decided to stop arguing as I can see I wasn't getting anywhere, but some of you really need to take a step back and think about how you are presenting yourselves in public.

I would be unprofessional not to point out a pi55 taker to those who may not know better. The guy is using someone for their gain, and mugging someone off (me and my bad language).

As I repeatedly say. Chase free work, do it, do lots of it. Difference between that and things like this is you are not being taken advantage of!

I imagine moaning endlessly about it on here is really likely to achieve a lot....

Actually I have had pms before from people who have thought twice about doing free work and asked how to approach it and getting paid.

If these threads let one person see the difference between working for free and being taken advantage of then I and those who are passionate about this will have succeeded.

I always I post this blog link too, and hope it puts my point across

http://www.carlspring.net/blog/2011...ou_are_good_at_something_never_do_it_for_free

 

[Top Cat]

Interesting thread.

I wonder how many in the 'never do it for free' camp would think twice if they were offered the chance to shoot something they had always wanted to or, say, were asked to shoot some images from the rear seat in a Spitfire (random, I know, but it makes a point! )

You see, the term 'payment' isn't always about pounds and pence for some. An invitation to an otherwise inaccessible event/area or the chance to experience something they wouldn't otherwise have opportunity to is all the 'payment' some need.

If you don't want to do it without putting in an invoice, don't, but don't chastise those who will.

I agree with this. I'm no chump.

I didn't get paid to do to take photos at ITN studios for an interview, but I did get driven in a private hire BMW for executives - and got to spend the day in London. Not to mention I was treated for an expensive dinner afterwards.

I also did some freebies for an operatic society charity, in turn I was driven there and got to on the HMS Warriour for free ^_^ and watch an opera. Huzzah!

 

[grum]

Going to agree here.

As has been said, if you don't want to do so, then that's OK. I'm not against you saying so however, keep it friendly.

To the OP, I've (hopefully) given you some reasons to consider paying something to the photographer...even if it's only petrol/travel costs.

To those considering doing the work...if you do this job, then you need to realise that it will be what you make of it. You can either do a straightforward job or you can try and do something different. If it were me, I'd not even be considering this unless I was within 5 miles of the venue.

I thought your contributions were pretty reasonable btw and you made some fair points, despite the fact we don't see eye to eye. Unlike certain others..... *cough*

The guy is using someone for their gain, and mugging someone off (me and my bad language).

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Maybe, maybe not, you are jumping to conclusions and bad-mouthing people without being in possession of all the facts.

 

[ding76uk]

Maybe, maybe not, you are jumping to conclusions and bad-mouthing people without being in possession of all the facts.

They want someone to work for free, they will not admit that they are the only one who will be not paid (please correct me if I am wrong OP).

I think I can hazard a pretty good guess! You also are also jumping to conclusions by assuming he is doing it out of the kindness of his heart!

 

[Top Cat]

I think the general consensus is that the photographer just needs to be cautious, is all. It's really down to the photographer in the end...It's him or her who has to really evaluate whether the opportunity is, quite frankly, worth it.

 

[:AgitatoR:]

The OP suffers from a lack of information. There is no indication (other than a vague suggestion that it might be 'interesting', 'fun' and a chance to gawp at some belly dancers) of what remuneration is being offered. Clearly money is not on the cards but there are other things that could be offered, making this a potentially worthwhile opportunity for some.

Far too often ads like this appear with no indication of what the photographer can expect to receive in return for her/his work. As others have said the video's producer gets free photos, what exactly does the photographer get? The OP hasn't even bothered to offer travel expenses, food or even a cup of on-set tea. I can understand why this thread has generated such strong responses.

 

[asphotographymk]

So calling other photographers 'stupid', 'so-called photographers', and 'mugs', and other members of the public 'pi55-takers' is perfectly acceptable conduct for professionals?

Certainly not the way I would choose to represent a business in public.

It's a simple question of supply and demand in a market economy. Lots of people want to do what they see as fun, creative work such as photography, thus driving down prices for those working in that industry. It comes across as immature tbh to start insulting people because you don't seem to be able to deal with that basic fact. :shrug:

I say it as i see it and stand by my comments.

 

[asphotographymk]

So calling other photographers 'stupid', 'so-called photographers', and 'mugs', and other members of the public 'pi55-takers' is perfectly acceptable conduct for professionals?

Certainly not the way I would choose to represent a business in public.

It's a simple question of supply and demand in a market economy. Lots of people want to do what they see as fun, creative work such as photography, thus driving down prices for those working in that industry. It comes across as immature tbh to start insulting people because you don't seem to be able to deal with that basic fact. :shrug:

I say it as i see it and stand by my comments. I have not directed any insults at anyone i have given my opinion that yes calling your self a photographer and then doing harm to the industry makes you pretty dam stupid.

 

[asphotographymk]

I would be unprofessional not to point out a pi55 taker to those who may not know better. The guy is using someone for their gain, and mugging someone off (me and my bad language).

As I repeatedly say. Chase free work, do it, do lots of it. Difference between that and things like this is you are not being taken advantage of!



Actually I have had pms before from people who have thought twice about doing free work and asked how to approach it and getting paid.

If these threads let one person see the difference between working for free and being taken advantage of then I and those who are passionate about this will have succeeded.

I always I post this blog link too, and hope it puts my point across

http://www.carlspring.net/blog/2011...ou_are_good_at_something_never_do_it_for_free

Plus one to that buddy. We are here to protect our industry and the people in it. Its not like me, you or anyone else on here has targeted insults we have simply said we dont want to be mugged off or see others taken advantage of(which i really dont see a problem with using that word even if some do). Thats how a professional should act.

And I'm not offering my time because I want to usurp any professionals...it's because no professionals will sodding let me assist them for experience! So this is the next best thing...from my newbie amateur perspective.

Make your way up to MK/London way and i am happy for you to join me anytime. And yes this would be unpaid because you have requested it and that is the difference.

 

[grum]

Plus one to that buddy. We are here to protect our industry and the people in it. Its not like me, you or anyone else on here has targeted insults we have simply said we dont want to be mugged off or see others taken advantage of(which i really dont see a problem with using that word even if some do). Thats how a professional should act.



Make your way up to MK/London way and i am happy for you to join me anytime. And yes this would be unpaid because you have requested it and that is the difference.

It's not just me that's noticed the bad attitude of some in this thread. See jamesb84's posts for an example of how to disagree with someone (and ask pertinent questions) but still conduct yourself in a mature manner.

BTW it's 'damn' not 'dam' and 'business' not 'buisness' (on your site).

 

[asphotographymk]

It's not just me that's noticed the bad attitude of some in this thread. See jamesb84's posts for an example of how to disagree with someone (and ask pertinent questions) but still conduct yourself in a mature manner.

BTW it's 'damn' not 'dam' and 'business' not 'buisness' (on your site).

If the best you can do is correct my spelling and a typo then that says allot really. I am not here to compete for best English. Nor do i really care to write in perfect English on this forum. As for a typo on my site.... well it happens and i can assure you it does not effect my business . The only person who is getting personal is you. Being a dyslexic person from time to time errors happen but i get by pretty well.

Your attitude is the worst on here and as i said above i have not targeted any comments to anyone personal simply made my point on people taking advantage of the photography industry. If you do not see value in your work who
will.

P.S i think my offer to join me on a shoot anytime from someone saying they cant find photographers willing was very kind so how that displays a bad attitude is beyond me.

P.S.S

I actually like your work grum so why you would ever think about working for free is crazy.

 

[grum]

I wasn't talking about your offer of seconding, though I do find it quite ironic that you are so vehemently slagging off someone else for offering an opportunity to do free work, while doing the same thing yourself. I know it's not exactly the same thing but it's not that different either.

BTW, thanks for the comment on my pics - I intend to start charging properly for my work when I have sufficient experience to be 100% confident of getting the quality I want in pretty much any situation. Round here it is a fairly small market so opportunities for seconding are limited, but I have arranged to do some in other areas of the country.

In the meantime I will do bits of work for free/very cheap if I feel it's worth it to me - and I feel I should have the right to do that without being insulted by fellow photographers who happen to have a different opinion on the way to go.

I've just been watching Scott Bourne's videos on Selling and Marketing Photography, and he suggests that sometimes working for free can be benificial in the long run - but what does he know eh?

PS someone just sent me an email through the contact form on my site calling me an 'arse' - very mature.

 

[asphotographymk]

I wasn't talking about your offer of seconding, though I do find it quite ironic that you are so vehemently slagging off someone else for offering an opportunity to do free work, while doing the same thing yourself. I know it's not exactly the same thing but it's not that different either.

BTW, thanks for the comment on my pics - I intend to start charging properly for my work when I have sufficient experience to be 100% confident of getting the quality I want in pretty much any situation. Round here it is a fairly small market so opportunities for seconding are limited, but I have arranged to do some in other areas of the country.

In the meantime I will do bits of work for free/very cheap if I feel it's worth it to me - and I feel I should have the right to do that without being insulted by fellow photographers who happen to have a different opinion on the way to go.

I've just been watching Scott Bourne's videos on Selling and Marketing Photography, and he suggests that sometimes working for free can be benificial in the long run - but what does he know eh?

PS someone just sent me an email through the contact form on my site calling me an 'arse' - very mature.

I can safely say if i thought you where an arse i would openly say it.

My point is just that, if people are asking me to help them learn by joining me on a shoot i have no real gain from this, i will be happy to offer advice and support on there shots and its almost like being on a lesson, in that sense i should be the one charging for that. I dont need a second i have 2 freelancers who work almost full time for me these days and i pay them but i am happy to help learners and beginners.

Your work is good. However small the market you should be setting your standards from the start. Under valuing yourself from the start is only going to set the ball rolling for that in the future. Charge what you worth and i can imagine your work is worth the going rate of the area.

 

[ding76uk]

do find it quite ironic that you are so vehemently slagging off someone else for offering an opportunity to do free work, while doing the same thing yourself. I know it's not exactly the same thing but it's not that different either.

It is totally different! Someone asks for assisting positions, he is then offered an opportunity by someone who does not need a staff member for the shoot, but is doing it as a favour to help the person out. The images/work from the person assisting will not be used for gain (financial or otherwise) by the person offering the position.

Then you have someone who needs a photographer (videographer) to actually do a job. Without actually having someone this portion of the job will remain not done. In this case the person who works for frees work will be used as promotion for a business that is there to generate money. Therefore his work is being used for financial gain.

That is the difference! We are not saying that people should not do free work, we are saying people should not be tricked into thinking they are not being used, when in reality the are being taken advantage of. This process usually increases the payments made to other people working on the same project, as one member of staffs wages they have saved gets split amongst those who are being paid for their work.

 

[analog_addict]

OK guys. Didn't realise this would cause such a fuss!

Position has now been filled by a guy that lives local to me. Thanks to all those that responded.

Can someone please lock this thread. It just turned into people arguing.

Again thanks to all those that replied.

 

[Airscene]

I attended and photographed a small event whilst living overseas several years ago. I did this for free, for a friend's organisation, but I did it under contract.

I retained copyright of all images but allowed the use of a dozen or so images to accompany an event write up on their website, and I was to be given credit for all images used.

That FREE work by this MUG led to being hired to photograph a largish concert by a Taiwanese pop group, which turned out to be very lucrative for me indeed.

I have made money from photography, however it has never been my main source of income. This may be the reason why I see this request as not wholly unreasonable.

Lets look at the flipside a moment... Analogue posts a request for a photographer and offer to pay a few £k, what are the chances he will be indundated by dozens of "wedding photographers" who have never photographed this kind of shoot before?

Before anyone jumps all over me for my comment, I am not putting down any kind of photographer in any way - my landscapes are for the most part awful, but if you offer me a few grand I'll come and take some for you...

I am merely saying that not every photographer has the skill to do a certain kind of shoot, it is often learned on the job, and if doing a job like this for free gives you the experience and possible some exposure, then why not do it? It might actually give you an edge over those who "overestimate" their own worth and criticise people for doing this.

Oh and one last thing.... I should apologise for destroying the "industry", but four years ago I did my one and only wedding shoot for a friend of mine... for FREE!

 

[~Sam~]

"....artist wants someone to shoot a behind the scenes set of the video.

Unfortunately he cannot afford to pay for this but I thought it might be an interesting project for someone getting started...."

Artist wants = artist 'would like' translates further to 'Artist ain't paying no matter how much others take this debate to a new level'. So, if artist wants it as an add-on a supplier of other services decides to see if there is interest from those who want to gain experience/portfolio build with NO WAY IN WHICH it will detract from a paid job....what's the problem?

There is no way, as far as I can see that this would come up as a paid assignment.

It's an add-on, a want to have and, as such, most wouldn't pay. The Artist has sorted any payment for other services, as far as I can tell.

I assume there are many who would like to take this on and, for the professionals who might want a chance to talk to the guy, spend time on it and, ultimately get refused, you have to pick your battles and I don't think this is one of them.

 

[straycat]

are those demanding payment declaring it?

on Sunday i was an extra for fun [and free] in a local band video.
they had a professional team from the college with a lot of expensive equipment it was 2 days shooting plus editing etc. to come.
no one at all was paid the band provided refreshments.

on Monday i shot the band and some video live for the enjoyment of it.
the guitarist gave me help on loading/using a recording software and bought me a lead to connect to the mixing desk.so i cold practice and learn.
i was on the guest list,not for the first time with this band.
last year on my birthday they sought me out and bought me beers.
i am not a professional,i don't give my stuff away with out thought.
but its not just about money

if you want to do it,learn and have fun it may lead to other things it isn't as if its the rolling stones asking for a freebie.

 

[asphotographymk]

That FREE work by this MUG led to being hired to photograph a largish concert by a Taiwanese pop group, which turned out to be very lucrative for me indeed.

Did you get payed to shoot the bands?

If not that was a double pi55 take. lol

 

[asphotographymk]

Come on guys we are not saying for a second no one should do work for free, yes i think doing loads of free work is bad for everyone in the long run but shooting a wedding for a good friend i am sure we all have (i shot my dads wedding and my sisters wedding for free). I also agree that free work is a great way to gain experience when accompanied by a payed professional. What i do not agree with is people expecting a professional job to be done for free.

If you need to hire a photographer then you pay for it its simple. And yes the fact that these people will always find someone willing to work for nothing can do nothing but damage to the photography industry and takes food of our tables.

 

[asphotographymk]

are those demanding payment declaring it?

Yes everything i earn gets declared and i pay a very big wedge of tax,

I actually do not know a full time photographer out there who does not declare his earnings and i have never seen a post on here to suggest anyone should not.

 

[ding76uk]

It's an add-on, a want to have and, as such, most wouldn't pay. The Artist has sorted any payment for other services, as far as I can tell.

My wife wanted getting ready pics for our wedding as an extra. Guess what, we paid for that extra.

If everyone else is getting paid and you are not then you are being taken advantage of.

if it is for a friend, relative etc, then we all do it.

I know someone who shoots for a publication now and again for free, but he also gets paid assignments from them and other people because of this. He worked it to his advantage.

He approached them, they said nothing at minute but will keep you in mind. Something came up in his area, very small for the mags website, but it was local, he knew there was no pay before the job started and was clear that if he didn't do it, the piece would not run, so not taking money from anyone.

30 mins job plus a little edit, he gets a nice portfolio shot out of it. Mag were happy with his work. Next week he gets calls from people for job because they had seen his work in XYZ mag. He then gets a call from magazine who were impressed with his work and wanted to use him for assignment on something else (paid and bigger piece). This means the occasional free job keeps his hand in. He takes on for free only very local work that doesn't take much time now and again if there is confirmed no cash in it.


This model works because there is good things in it for the photographer. Exposure in National media from this free job.

Now what do you think the same guy said when a local band tipped as the next big thing wanted him to do all their promo work for free?


You can do work for free and you can use it to your advantage. It just happens that most free work has nothing in it for anyone but the person who wants free work.

 

[DaveRed]

Shh...quiet for a minute. Hear it??
Jangling keys...I reckon the padlock is on its way

 

[grum]

Yes everything i earn gets declared and i pay a very big wedge of tax,

I actually do not know a full time photographer out there who does not declare his earnings and i have never seen a post on here to suggest anyone should not.

The thing is though, for people who are only going to occasionally earn money - it's not really worth filling in tax returns, getting the proper PL and professional use insurance on all your gear etc etc - easier just to do it free.

 

[Airscene]

Did you get payed to shoot the bands?

If not that was a double pi55 take. lol

Yes I got paid, that was the point of my post. I had never done this kind of work before and without the free job I wouldnt have got the paid job.

 

[asphotographymk]

The thing is though, for people who are only going to occasionally earn money - it's not really worth filling in tax returns, getting the proper PL and professional use insurance on all your gear etc etc - easier just to do it free.

Just because it is free does not mean you should not have the correct PL and insurance on your gear. You are still just as liable.

 

[asphotographymk]

Yes I got paid, that was the point of my post. I had never done this kind of work before and without the free job I wouldnt have got the paid job.

Well lucky you. As said above about 10 times we have not said never to do free shoots if you believe your going to get some gain from it long term its people expecting shoots for free that is my problem. On most occasions people who are lookign for free work will always expect free work and the moment you start charging they will go to some other beginner who will shoot for free.

 

[grum]

Just because it is free does not mean you should not have the correct PL and insurance on your gear. You are still just as liable.

I didn't say don't get insurance, but insurance for professional use is often quite a bit more expensive.

 

[jamesb84]

D

 

[grum]

Er.... when did I say 'don't bother with insurance'? :shrug:

You can get your gear insured and get basic PL insurance for a lot less than getting it insured for professional use and getting PI insurance. Frankly I think suggesting that a student or amateur needs to get PI insurance to do something for free occasionally is a bit crazy.

I sometimes wonder if we live in the same world, for instance, I know a professional who doesn't have PI insurance (and does weddings without a backup camera).

I don't think that's a very good idea personally, but so far the world hasn't ended and nobody has died.

I wish the mods would close this thread so I stop replying.

 

[jamesb84]

L

 

[ding76uk]

I sometimes wonder if we live in the same world, for instance, I know a professional who doesn't have PI insurance (and does weddings without a backup camera).

Then you wait for the day WHEN something happens and that guy is left with nothing because someone tripped over his bag strap and broke their wrist, or the camera gave in and the bride and groom sue him for ruining their day and basically ends his career as a wedding photographer. These things do happen, and the happen often.

Insurance is a must, pro or not, free work or paid. PL and indemnity are always good to have. I don't see that knowing someone in that situation Grum and not having a word and trying to warn them what could happen to them, because you know what could happen to them.