Lots of startup questions, help!

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ash39

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I've made the decision after a lot of consideration that I'd like to get into sports photography. I know how hard it is, how much competition there is and that I'll need luck on my side, but I'm prepared to stick at it. Worst case scenario I fail and sell the kit I've bought!

Anyway, doom and gloom stuff over with, I obviously need quite a bit of advice! I mentioned in other threads that I'm quite local to York City Knights (about 2 miles) and York City FC (about 3 miles) but I'm told you need PLI and RFL accreditation.

How do I go about getting RFL accredited?
Would you do this before contacting York City Knights or make the initial enquiry with them first?

I don't mind travelling but I'm not going to give up the day job so evening games need to be localish. I've noticed a few poeple on here are with agencies. How does that work?

It all seems a bit catch 22, you need licences/accreditation to shoot but to get licences you need to prove you can shoot! How do I start out??

Regarding kit, I'm fortunate enough to have a bit of cash saved up to start me off. I have a 500d but I realise this won't be much cop. I was thinking of a 7D and a 70-200mm F2.8L. Non-IS, don't think I'd need it with a monopod?

How do monopods work by the way, I've never used one but I never understood them as they surely don't eliminate lateral shake? What's the purpose?

Think that's enough for now, sure more questions will follow!
 
the point of a monopod a lot of the time is to take the weight of heavy lenses. Though it can tone it down a bit with long lenses
 
..............Slow down................... take a breath.............. and relax :)

Look around on here, lots of advice already given, what is it you really want to do?

Shoot sports and get in the papers? Forget it, it's not that it wont happen, it takes more than kit, skill, determination and passion.

My advice, and im a novice, get out to the local park/ sports ground, get the feel of it, talk to the local teams, ask them if they want your shots or even sell them if you can. Get out there and get a feel of it before you commit to spending money on a 'hope of making it'

As I said, im a novice, and thats the kind of advice that the bigger and better sports togs on here have already given. They get paid and it's still a very tough career / hobby.

Good luck and get digging for info ;)

Phil.
 
Thanks for the replies!

I know it's not as simple as taking a shot and getting it straight into the papers, but I'm only 24 so if I start now maybe I'll reach those heights one day. I'm not obsessed with the idea of it though, my aim for now is to get some experience and then eventually make enough money out of it to cover my travel expenses etc, and if that works out maybe take it further.

I know thinking about kit is a long way off yet and I'll probably be able to use my 500D for some local kickabout stuff, but just so I know what I'll have to spend do people generally think a 7D and 70-200mm is enough to start with, or will I need other stuff?
 
Just a had a look on your flickr by the way Phil, some great shots especially the basketball :)
 
Forget about getting RFL accreditation, the last round of issues were for a three year pass and dont expire until Dec 2011 so the earliest and new applications would be accepted in 2010, its widely thought that even those with current accreditation will find themselves up against it next time round.

There are too many currently with accreditation and a lot of these are "wasted" accreditations as they dont have any source to sell their images onto, too many are turning up at games with accreditation "just for fun" so to speak

The RFL im lead to beleive are trying to cut numbers drastically and the current train of thought is that unless you already work for an agency or Newspaper or can prove you have already sold or have a current agreement to sell your images to a media outlet then you dont stand a chance.

Fact is there are way too many togs and not enough work.

Try shooting round the amateur scene for a while and try to build up some sort of reputation, i know Heworth get very little coverage so it might be worth giving them a call, try contacting Ken Sykes the club secretary

drop me an email at gary dot coyle at sky dot com if you want Kens number
 
Oh, and most important of all, DO NOT like some others have done just go steaming ahead and ignore the good advice you will get on here, you will fast lose any credit/respect you have or hope to build up and find any more help or advice almost impossible to come by.

If you want some local amateur RL contacts drop me an email
 
Thanks again, good info there. Do you mean Heworth rugby or football? They're very local to me so would be ideal.

I'm looking at York Sunday Morning Football League website at the moment, lots of info on there and fixtures. Would it be worthwhile picking a fixture and ringing both team managers to see if they're OK with me shooting a match?
 
I can only speak of RL but there are a few clubs your way who play at National League level, Heworth, York Acorn and New Earswick
 
Oh don't worry, I'm not looking for miracles, just want to know where to get my foot on the ladder.

I'll drop you an e-mail, thanks for the offer (y)
 
With skill, determination, a lot of hard effort and luck, you stand a good chance of getting where you want.

Whilst taking advantage of every possible break you can get, and being nice with it (never annoy anyone, ever), you can inch your way up the ladder. Just be aware that it's a long ladder with many rungs!

You need to be prepared to spend long hours taking pictures and making connections, and persevering with skill and patience. The most useful thing I have found in my relatively short experience so far is people. Much more important than any piece of kit, is building up a network of people who may be able to help you, give you references, link you to other people etc. Nurture and cultivate this network very carefully and it may eventually bear fruit.
 
ash39 said:
Just a had a look on your flickr by the way Phil, some great shots especially the basketball :)
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Thanks, I've only really shot basketball, and trying to motivate myself to get other sports under my belt. So im pretty much a 1 trick pony for now :D

Tobers said:
With skill, determination, a lot of hard effort and luck, you stand a good chance of getting where you want.

Whilst taking advantage of every possible break you can get, and being nice with it (never annoy anyone, ever), you can inch your way up the ladder. Just be aware that it's a long ladder with many rungs!

You need to be prepared to spend long hours taking pictures and making connections, and persevering with skill and patience. The most useful thing I have found in my relatively short experience so far is people. Much more important than any piece of kit, is building up a network of people who may be able to help you, give you references, link you to other people etc. Nurture and cultivate this network very carefully and it may eventually bear fruit.
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:agree: very sound advice, mistakes in the camera are easy to change or delete, peoples opinions are not. Thanks Tobers (y)
 
That is good advice, thanks Tobers. I've got some RL contacts from Gary so I'll see where they take me. I've also got some numbers I'm going to call for local hockey and basketball teams. I don't know a lot about either sport, football and rugby league are more my thing, but I'd like to have a diverse portfolio.

Phil, your basketball shots are that good I'm sure you can adapt those skills to other sports (y)
 
I suggest you don't call instead, go and see them. Demonstrate that you are taking a keen interest in them and what they do. Build those relationships. Calls and emails are for whimps. Get out there and be seen.
 
ash39 said:
Phil, your basketball shots are that good I'm sure you can adapt those skills to other sports (y)
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ooeerrr .... im blushing :nuts:

cheers for that, I do feel that myself, just need to find the time to get myself out there. (y)
 
Face to face not always as easy as you might think, i have worked for newspapers as wide apart as Barrow, Hull, Sheffield, Nottingham, London, Workington, Whitehaven, Blackpool and even France, New Zealand and Australia etc, etc, certainally none of those are within 40 mile of me so no face to face. :)

However, if it is just local then face to face is good.
 
Gary Coyle said:
Oh, and most important of all, DO NOT like some others have done just go steaming ahead and ignore the good advice you will get on here, you will fast lose any credit/respect you have or hope to build up and find any more help or advice almost impossible to come by.

If you want some local amateur RL contacts drop me an email
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:agree: SERIOUSLY...Listen to that advice.
 
Think I'm just going to go to some local games, without the camera gear maybe just a few cards, and see if I can get any interest.

Don't worry I'm not as naive as some who think they can do it overnight... I've seen the posts. Thanks for all the advice so far everyone (y)
 
First piece of advice is "DONT THROW YOUR MONEY AT IT". As suggested take your time and buy once buy right.

Secondly go and shoot locally and try to build a portfolio to show. Without one no one will touch you. If you know any of the local press guys ask if you could tag along to a local league Saturday/Sunday game.
 
ash39 said:
Think I'm just going to go to some local games, without the camera gear maybe just a few cards, and see if I can get any interest.
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Take your camera.. photograph the game if your there.. You should be shooting as much football as you can.. not watching it.. handing out cards wont get you very far without photographs :)
 
Ash, i should be doing some work for YCK next season through my agency, if youre doing nowt on the day i'll see if i can get you pitchside access, you will need PLI though just in case, its something you should have even if youre only shooting down the local park on a Sunday morning, its a claim culture we live in now and you should be covered.
 
I'm buying a 70-200mm F/4L non IS from a guy on here, I know the advice is buy once buy well and I'll maybe want to upgrade to a F2.8 in future but I don't think it'll drop in value much and I was after a telephoto for my when my daughter starts running around anyway. Will it be any good for kickabout stuff in daylight on a 500D?

Gary that'd be brilliant if you could yeah. On the subject of PLI how much can I expect to pay for cover, is it based on where you live etc? Also I'm not sure why you say I'd need it to shoot kickabout stuff, what kind of claim could be made against me because of my camera? I'm still going to get covered because I don't want to take any risks but just want to know what the reasons are.
 
It's a blame culture, if someone cant stay on their feet, or watch where they are going, they bump into you or fall over you, you become the major factor of why they cant even lift a spoon to eat their cereal in the morning. Therefore they want you to pay for their bills for the rest of their life, if you were not there, they would be leading a normal healthy life (looking for another chance to freeload).......

And it's around £70 for upto £2 million :)
 
It's a fair point. Is that to say that everyone should have it then regardless of profession? I bumped into someone in the supermarket earlier she could have sued me for the damaged cornflakes!!

Joking aside, anyone any thoughts on the 70-200mm ??
 
ash39 said:
Joking aside, anyone any thoughts on the 70-200mm ??
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wasting your money IMHO ..f4 isnt a lot of use at this time of year for sport unless your out in the morning...and just about useless at night games
 
ash39 said:
Thanks (y)

So the F2.8 non IS is the way to go?
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yes.. a sigma 70-200 f2.8 is better than a canon f4 70-200 IMHO because of the light for the next few months.. football starts at 3pm .. some days the floodlights are already on the lighting is so poor.. you need 2.8 and if your thinking of a night match under floodlight then deffo 2.8
 
The Sigma wouldn't be anywhere near as sharp as the Canon though would it? I'd rather spend the extra and get the Canon F/2.8. Just it's a big investment to make right away, is there a cheapish good zoom that I could buy that won't lose much value that I can cut my teeth on?
 
I was comparing pound for pound :) if you can afford then get the canon 2.8
 
Just thinking regarding the 70-200... I can get a F4 for £390, would be another £500/600 for a F2.8. Would I not be able to achieve the same 1-stop difference with the improved ISO of a 7D (over my 500D)? Would cost about the same.

The thinking being at least then I have a better body for my other photography if I decide it's not for me.
 
the body helps, but it needs a good eye in the first place. The best pics are through the best glass. Get the best you can afford, then build up skills and kit.
 
ash39 said:
Just thinking regarding the 70-200... I can get a F4 for £390, would be another £500/600 for a F2.8. Would I not be able to achieve the same 1-stop difference with the improved ISO of a 7D (over my 500D)? Would cost about the same.
.
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kinda depends on where your thinking of photographing... my camera is better than a 7d (by a country mile :) ) and i still need f2.8
 
I think it is not just the extra light gathering ability of a f2.8 lens, it's also the faster focusing and the shallower depth of field to make the subject stand out from the background which justify the price. Oh, and it is normally a sharper lens too. ;)

Unfortunate for those of us who don't have the money. :( :LOL:


Before I took a leap into trying to be a pro (something I would never do btw even if I was good enough) and investing in the necessary gear, I would be practising every chance I could, and I would get opinions on the pics I'd taken to see if I was getting close to pro shots, equipment deficiencies apart. :shrug:
 
ash39 said:
Just thinking regarding the 70-200... I can get a F4 for £390, would be another £500/600 for a F2.8. Would I not be able to achieve the same 1-stop difference with the improved ISO of a 7D (over my 500D)? Would cost about the same.

The thinking being at least then I have a better body for my other photography if I decide it's not for me.
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Get out and photograph local teams at whatever level games that allow you to get pitchside. I guarantee you will quickly want more than 200mm though if you get into it, so unless you start with something longer, you will want f2.8 for when you find yourself putting a teleconverter on! Also, as others have said 2.8 gives a shallower depth of field and so a more out of focus background, the trademark look of sports shots as it makes the subject stand out from the background. Forget about a new camera to start with i'd say. I've not used one but a 500D should be fine for starting out. Save your money for a cpl months and upgrade the camera if you get into it.

tbh unless you are trying to sell shots from the outset (and you would struggle to) image quality isn't all that important. You want to be working on focus and composition, and getting in lots of practice to get a feel for the sports you are shooting and develop the instinct pro shooters have to get THE shot. If you post a shot on here for critique that has captured a great moment in a game, and the composition is good and it is in focus, I would not criticise you because it is a little noisy because you dont have the latest camera, or because it is heavily cropped because you dont have the longest lens. Once you have the skill expand your kit and suddenly you will be making great photos with great IQ that are saleable.
 
Thanks Rogan, I've actually had a go at shooting 5-a-side since I started this thread (see sports section). Also got myself a 70-200 f/2.8, which should arrive by Wednesday, if it does I might go to 5-a-side again.

Thanks for the tips, regarding capturing THE shot, I found myself the other night shooting with both eyes open so continuously using the viewfinder to frame the shot but keeping my other eye open for people moving into the play, is that generally what people do?
 
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