Beginner Low light lens advice.

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Esther
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Hi,

I asked on her a couple of weeks ago for advice on which zoom lens to buy for my D5300 and ended up going for the 55-300 which I'm more than pleased with.

I'm back again to ask for advice on decent low light lenses, I've been reading up and a few reviews recommend a prime lens - either 35mm or 50mm, I've had a look on the Curry's website and they're both around £150 which is within my £200 budget.

I currently have the 55-300mm and the 18-55mm kit lens but I find it difficult to get indoor shots with either of them.
I mainly take photos of my 2 young kids and the dogs and often they're in the house, sometimes in the evening when the curtains are closed so no natural light, I do adjust the setting for whatever the light source is but I still feel there's a lot of room for improvement.

I'm also going to a 50th birthday party next week and want to take photos there plus we have some holidays booked where I want to take photos of the kids in the clubhouse, I really enjoy taking outdoor photos with oof backgrounds too so I like the idea of a larger aperture as my kit lens is only 3.5.

So I wondered if anyone could help me with any pros or cons between the two that I should consider or if I'm looking at wrong lenses entirely, I do worry that I'll miss having a zoom but I presume I can deal with that on photoshop.

Thanks.
 
I do worry that I'll miss having a zoom but I presume I can deal with that on photoshop.

Deal with it by moving :)
A faster lens is a good thing to have, say a 50 f1.8 as opposed to your zoom at about f4.
I don't see why you would go to Curry's, there are better and cheaper suppliers - Digitalrev for instance (IMHO).
 
I have the 35mm 1.8 and its a great lens and in my opinion a better focal length than the 50mm for a crop sensor camera like the D5300 especially for indoors where space is tighter, try setting you kit lens to each focal length and see which will work best for you.
 
You may find a 50mm a little too long, particularly indoors. One lens very much worth considering is the Nikon 35mm f1.8G DX - it will cost under £150 from decent UK suppliers and I suspect even less from grey suppliers. It has very decent IQ and for the price is an absolute steal. Another option would be some sort of f2.8 zoom, but these may be a tad outside your budget, but a used one may not be - something like a Tamron 17-50 f2.8 or sigma 18-50 f2.8.
 
Thanks Kendo,

I have no problems with physically moving closer to the subject on most occasions but I like candid shots, my girls are aged 1 and 3 and once they spot my camera pointing at them they either stare, come towards me or in the case of my 3 year old turn away so with a zoom I can be a distance away and more inconspicuous.

I presume though I don't need to be very close to them with either.

Paul,
Thanks for the recommendation, I'll have a read up on those, I did worry about the 50mm being too long but on a couple of the comparison reviews it was preferred to the 35mm.

The reason I looked at Curry's was because I could pick one up today, the party is next Friday and I wanted a few evenings to practise with it and worry that of I have to order online with bank holiday I'll be cutting it a bit fine.
 
Thank you Matt it's helpful to hear from someone who has the lens, I'm really torn now and will do as you suggest with my kit lens.
 
Personally a flash going off at a family and friends gathering is my idea of hell and to be avoided. I'd go for natural light every time.

It's a looooong time since I was a Nikon owner so I had to look at what's available and I was surprised that there doesn't seem to be a reasonably priced 28 or 35mm equivalent lens (did I miss them?) so in the absence of one I'd go for a 50mm equivalent lens, or there abouts, so that'd be either the Nikon 35mm f1.8 or Sigma 30mm f1.4 which I think costs more.
 
Thanks everyone,

I've ordered the 35mm and it should be here tomorrow.

I Googled the 35 vs 50mm on my camera and on various forums the general consensus was the same as this one that the 35mm is used more.
 
Thanks everyone,

I've ordered the 35mm and it should be here tomorrow.

I Googled the 35 vs 50mm on my camera and on various forums the general consensus was the same as this one that the 35mm is used more.

You will get some pretty good results with the 35mm, I manage to get some decent results with mine. Even with the missus in the kitchen I can manage to get her separated from the background, and our kitchen is small :)
 
The 35mm is also a good walk about lens, although I might have liked a 50mm as my walk about lens...
 
Thanks everyone,

I've ordered the 35mm and it should be here tomorrow.

I Googled the 35 vs 50mm on my camera and on various forums the general consensus was the same as this one that the 35mm is used more.

Very good choice. I had the 50 and the 35 on DX camera (D3200, D7100) and the 50 is very limiting indoors.I'm sure you will love the 35 (y)

Just for the record, the 50 on FF is perfect too ;)
 
Well I'm very pleased with my new lens, I took a photo of my daughter indoors at 35mm on my kit lens then on my new lens and the difference was very clear, the lighting and sharpness was much better.

We've got season passes to a local theme park and have been today so took it along and was very impressed, indoors it copes very well without a flash which is exactly what I wanted, I did miss the zoom on a few occasions so I think I'll always carry my other lens but I love the oof backgrounds it produces.
 
Another happy ending :)
 
I'm sure you'll get lots of advice on the lens here. I also recommend a good external flash for indoor shots, one that's a bit more high-end, where you can adjust exposure and that picks up focal distance distance off your camera. You can either whack it right up and reflect it off ceilings and walls (this normally achieves a good fill lighting) or point it at your subject, turn it down quite a bit, and set your ISO nice and high (1600, 3200... depending how well your camera copes with noise at different ISO's). The latter needs a bit more practice, but it lights up your subject, gets background in, and saves flash and batteries. :)
 
Yeah I think you're right, I've just been playing around with it in the living room with all the lights off and just the telly on and on Auto it slows the shutter speed so the subject is blurred but with the flash on although the subject is sharp it's way too bright and really washes out faces plus I'm assuming super bright for whoever I'm aiming at!

So a flash is next on the list, I'd be glad of any recommendations as I'm completely clueless where to even begin choosing one.
 
Yeah I think you're right, I've just been playing around with it in the living room with all the lights off and just the telly on and on Auto it slows the shutter speed so the subject is blurred but with the flash on although the subject is sharp it's way too bright and really washes out faces plus I'm assuming super bright for whoever I'm aiming at!

So a flash is next on the list, I'd be glad of any recommendations as I'm completely clueless where to even begin choosing one.

See post #7 ;)
 
Sorry Hoppy, I'd forgotten about your link until after I'd posted the previous post, I did look at it but it doesn't mention my camera in the list of the ones it works with.

It has the D5000, 5100 and 5200 but mine's the 5300.
 
Sorry Hoppy, I'd forgotten about your link until after I'd posted the previous post, I did look at it but it doesn't mention my camera in the list of the ones it works with.

It has the D5000, 5100 and 5200 but mine's the 5300.

Depends which ad you read. No problem on a D5300 :)
 
Hi Esther, it's too late for you now as you've ordered a lens, but the great thing about a walkabout zoom lens (which you have) is you don't have to zoom it ;)

What I mean is you can walk around with that lens set to a particular focal length and try it out, without zooming it for a day or so. You can try it at 35 and then again at 50 and see which you find more natural and which length has you shooting more.

It won't help with the low light bit - although just crank up your ISO - but it will give you a steer on what f/l is more suited to the subjects you shoot and how you like to compose them.

I to do a lot of candid shots of my two kids (2 and 5) and my favourite/most commonly used lens is an 85mm on a full format sensor camera (so equivalent to about 55mm on crop sensor bodies). That doesn't mean it's right for you though.
 
I'll agree with Paul. I'm more into face shots/head and shoulders rather than full or half shots.
I tend to prefer longer lenses- 135 or 200.

Each to their own :)
 
I found with my 55-300 I was often too close to get it to focus, it's not a problem with scenery, outdoors etc or with the dogs as I can move away and get them to stay in the same spot but with the kids I'm often sat somewhere and they're playing nearby and there's physically no way of putting more distance between us without them noticing and then becoming interested in the camera.

With the kit lens I found I was having a huge amount of photos to delete and only a handful to keep although I know that it's me that's useless and not the lens! Until 5 weeks ago all I had was a bridge camera and my mobile phone for taking photos, I'm spending all my evenings online reading about how to get better at photography plus have 3 books one of which is dedicated to my camera, I also come on here and trawl through the posts and read all the critique the the following day when I'm in the situation to take photos I make silly errors and end up with rubbish photos again.

I'm stubborn though and wont give up :)
 
Hi Esther, it sounds like you have a good approach - read, learn and practice. That's all there is to this photography lark :) And practice is the most important of those, although "learn" is pretty critical if we want to improve, too.

Don't worry about getting a low proportion of keepers. It's part of that learning process. And on the basis that we tend to learn more from our mistakes than our successes, look on the bright side of having more educational material to continue improving at a fast rate!

Back to your OP, that longer telephoto zoom is going to be more of a struggle with fast moving kids and animals. If, for no other reason, than they'll possibly moving out of frame so quickly. Enjoy playing with your 35mm when it arrives - it's a decent focal length to cover a lot of uses, so I hope you get on well with it.
 
The 35mm f1.8, is a very good lens; BUT, for your 'problems' it's not what I'd have recommended.
The fast f1.8 aperture is 'only' a couple of 'stops' faster than your kit-lens 18-55 at the wide-end, and that's only a stop faster there than at the tight-end.
It's the difference between shooting at 400ISO instead of 1600ISO, and unless you are right up against the buffers at 3200ISO that aperture isn't going to be doing much to help you get 'better' photo's.... and if it is against the buffers? Well the problem isn't you don't have a fast-enough lens, its that you don't have enough LIGHT!
The 35mm will be doing a far bit likely to hinder you getting them, though, as at that wide an aperture, the depth of field, how much is in focus in front and behind the subject point you focus on, gets very shallow, very quickly; as in, you focus on the eyes and your subject's nose and ears go soft focus; if you are shooting quick moving kids, you are as likely to get shots going blurr from them moving away from where you focused as you are the shutter speed dropping too low.
Fact you talk about trying to use the 55-300 indoors...?!?... eek... unless you live in Buckingham palace, NOT really surprising you struggle with close focus on that lens! Sort of suggests that you are trying to frame FAR to 'tight' on your subjects, for starters.... you know you DONT have to fill the frame with face to get a good photo, don't you?
A little space around them can make for a much better shot, providing some 'context' to show where they are, what they are doing, or enjoy doing, that sort of thing....
A tight shot on the face tends to be a bit 'boring', and make un-flattering detail, like pimples or crooked noses rather more prominent...
Give your subject space to breath! Show what they are up to... often makes for far better picture, and if you still want that tight close up on the face, you can always 'crop' it after.
Shooting wider, will tend to give you a lot more tolerance on, well, everything!
The kit lenses are faster at the wide-end than the tight, so you will usually have a wider aperture and ability to up the shutter speed, if you want, but at smaller apertures, a wider lens will inherently give you more depth of field front and back of your subjects focus distance, helping to make focus accuracy less critical and pictures that bit sharper... and more 'space' around the subject giving you greater room for error to keep them in the frame if 'tracking' the subject, or precaution against them shifting suddenly in the frame if you aren't.
35mm might help a little, constraining you to the 'normal-angle' in the middle of the kit 18-55's focal length range, denying you a lot of frame-filling 'zoom' you can use, but if you get that frame filling from getting up close, which that lens will allow, it will focus down to about 6" or so ISTR, you will find that 'Depth-of-field' issue getting worse, at all apertures, as the DoF is a % of the camera-to-subject distance, so gets shallower the closer you get, as well as the lower f-no you use.
But back to top; if you are shooting indoors with available light, and shots is getting blurry from too low a shutter speed, even with the ISO ramped up, your 'problem' is not the camera or the kit.. its the lack of LIGHT.
Adding more light is likely a far better solution!
If you really don't want to use flash, pop-up or off-camera, then you need to look at your situation; can you open the curtains more? Open a door, to let more light in? Can you change your view-point to get more light on the subject? Move a chair or anything casting shadows on them? What about turning on the room light? Is there a reading lamp or spot-light you can use to brighte things up a bit?
This sort of 'thought' to the situation and setting up the shot, and paying attention to the lighting, IS far more likely to do far more to get you better shots, than trying to buy 'something' you hope will do it all for you, without putting in any more effort than point and shoot and firing away....
Its the difference between better photographers ad better cameras making better pictures.
I have the same lenses you do, the 18-55 & 55-300, I have an few fast primes, too, but kids? Indoors? Its set-up or flash!
Its lack of light that's your primary problem, your technique your secondary, kit you have isn't! IMHO.
 
Hi Mike,

Thank you for your very detailed advice, I agree completely about the light and it's a mistake I do make fairly frequently, for instance yesterday I went to a local "Staffordshire Day" event which was indoors, I'm trying to get used to the aperture setting first as I've read it's the most useful setting and one that I will probably use more than the others.
The event was held inside a school and I was trying to get around 4 feet away from the kids with a wide aperture to keep the background blurred mainly because I like the effect but also to blur out other peoples kids as I'm always very conscious that some parents don't want their children photographed and I like to upload the odd photo to social media.
At the time from what I could see out of about 30 photographs I only had 1 that looked perfectly sharp and another 2 that were mainly ok but a small amount of blur on my 1 year old's hands, I ended up getting quite frustrated that I couldn't seem to get it right so put the camera away. Once I got home I looked at them on the pc and sure enough all but 3 were either grainy or had more blur than I liked, it was then I realised I hadn't altered the WB setting to fluorescent lighting, such a simple setting to forget. I'm not sure how much difference it'd have made but it does annoy me that I didn't even try to alter it.

In my own living room I do try to position myself with the window behind and have the curtains wide open, we have two windows so a good amount of light, I don't think the photos are too bad but as a previous poster mentioned I do need a flash to bounce light.
Regarding flash I do worry about using it in public, in situations like yesterday at an event for children I'd feel a bit embarrassed using one as it instantly makes people look although I know that's more to do with me not liking to be the centre of attention! One place I'd love to take photos is my daughters ballet class but again it's indoors and in a hall with the curtains closed lit entirely by fluorescent light and not somewhere I'd feel comfortable using a flash, I did try it once last month when I'd only had my camera 2 days so it was literally point and shoot and hope for the best as I'd only had a couple of hours to practice beforehand, a few pictures were ok but not as I'd hoped however next Saturday I'm planning to take it again, adjust the setting to fluorescent and take my 55-300.

Having said all that I do feel like I've improved in the last 5 weeks, I just need to keep getting out and practising so adjusting the settings becomes second nature and remember that a lot of the photos I see from others are very likely to have been processed, a bit like the photoshopped celebrities we aspire to be!
 
@Esther I'm not a people photographer but white balance won't make any difference whatsoever to the sharpness of the image, it will just give an incorrect colour cast. Do you know what shutter speeds you were getting? Can you view the exif?
 
Hi Esther, if it's any consolation that's what learning is all about. Don't stress it and absolutely avoid obsessing about using specific modes on your camera. Of course you want to improve your photography but you also want to get some keepers and the two go hand-in-hand in my opinion. Otherwise you risk falling out of love with your hobby (something I did about 10 years ago). So, my top tips:

1. Don't be afraid to increase your ISO. A noisy image is better than a blurry one (unless intentionally blurred)
2. Don't obsess about shallow depth of field (low f stop numbers). Yes, they let more light in and therefore allow a faster shutter speed at the same ISO, but nailing focus is harder... swings and roundabouts
3. Don't feel you have to use aperture priority mode or any other. Automatic program modes *can* be a good way to make sure you get at least a handful of keepers when lighting conditions are tough (depending on what the program is doing). It doesn't make you an inferior photographer, it makes you a photographer who has managed to nail a keeper (with help) :)

There's so much to think about, you're better off learning to deal with one moving part at a time - IMHO. This is another reason why zooms can be good - and bad - they introduce changing focal length (and potentially variable aperture) into the mix. Your new 35mm lens might help "stabilise" another variable or two in this regard.

The best thing I did was to take me and my camera out of dynamic situations when learning. By this, I mean I did some "skills practice" on static objects. Seeing what different aperture, shutter speed, ISO combinations did and also have a play with framing and composition. It's easier when you can control what's in front of you. When you've done this enough, you'll have built enough muscle memory etc. so that your control of the camera becomes a lot more automatic. It's a bit like learning to drive: in those first few lessons there's so much to think about it's overload city. Years later you don't even think about pressing the clutch to change gear etc.

Most important of all: enjoy it!
 
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Selective focus, OOF back-grounds? Does give a nice effect, doesn't it? This was taken in-doors, (a church hall if memory serves; it was the party after a Catholic Christening, so LOTS of kidz tearing about!), on film, probably 100ASA, many decades ago, with a little 'bounce' flash.
But it's an effect, that if you want to exploit, you really have to understand, and modern Auto-Focus cameras & lenses don't do much to help folk understand it these days, unfortunately.
Remember, the DoF you get around your focus point is a % of the focus-distance, so the closer you are to your subject, less DoF you get, regardless of aperture, so you can get it without using a long lens or wide aperture, just by getting that bit closer to your subject.
BUT, DoF extends 1/3 in-front of the focus point and 2/3 behind.... take note, you get more in focus behind your subject, than in-front... which is a little unhelpful if you are a slave to Auto-focus, because you focus on the eyes, and there's not a lot in the shot in front of them, other than the nose, or in this picture the fruit-punch in the girl's hand.... and if the back-ground is particularly close to the subject, you are going to struggle trying to throw that oof, just on the aperture..... BUT... using an old manual focus camera, you could 'cheat' and shift the entire DoF 'zone' and pull it forwards, by NOT focusing on the eyes; you focus on the girls nose, or on the glass, or even on 'nothing' somewhere in front of her.. now her hand, glass, nose eyes and ears are all still in the DoF zone and in acceptably sharp-focus, BUT the DoF is now dropping off much sooner behind the subject, and your close background going nicely oof that much sooner.
Old Manual focus lenses, as said, made this easier, as they they usually had focus distance scales on them, many modern AF lenses often lack, (and the Nik-Kit 18-55 & 55-300 are definite examples), and they also had DoF markings on the focus scale to indicate the DoF zone around the set focus distance for any aperture.
That picture was probably shot with a camera to subject distance of about 2m or 7ft. looking at the scale on my old Ziess 50, @ f8, that would give me a DoF zone from aprox 5&1/2ft to 10ft, so if I had focused on her eyes, I have a good 18" of focus in front of her, but almost 3ft behind... but I want what was behind oof.. there ent anything in front of her to in or out of focus!
SO I could focus in-front of her, by maybe a foot, and now my DoF zone is extending from about 5ft to 7ft... shortening focus has shortened the DoF.... I have a zone barely 2ft deep instead of 4&1/2 ft.. I have't actually got closer to the subject, but focusing as if had, has shortened the DoF, and by as much as opening up the aperture almost two stops! BUT far more 'usefully', I have shifted the DoF zone, so that most of it is 'around' my subject, and what I want in acceptable focus is, and probably more of it than if I had just opened up the aperture.. and that bit of the scene I want going oof, is now dropping out of the Dof zone that much sooner...
THIS is proper 'selective focus' rather than 'shallow Dof' effect. Actually exploiting the DoF to put the Depth-of-Focus zone 'around' what you want in focus, not arbitrarily 1/3 in front & 2/3 behind the focus point selected for you by a red-dot!
Like I said, modern AF cameras are rather unhelpful in exploiting 'selective focus' techniques, you might try messing with the focusing 'scheme' and which dot the camera uses, or using the back-button for focus lock, b-u-t.. a lot of 'faff' ad they wont focus on thin air, where you might actually want your focus distance set! So you probably have to switch off the AF altogether and go manual, where the lack of focus scale ad DoF markings is something of a hindrance.....
Old manual-focus film-cameras, could also often be stopped down to the taking aperture, and some eve had a DoF pre-view button to do that for you, so you could see the DoF through the view-finder, which modern electric picture makers that hold the aperture wide-open until the shutter is pressed, lack.. so it IS a tougher trick to master with a Digtal SLR than a old Film Camera.
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Different little girl, slightly more recently. My O/H's grand-daughter, last year in the back-garden, in natural light; shot on digital with an old manual focus, M42 screw fit, Hanimex 135 'prime' lens, on an adaptor to fit the electric picture-maker.... again, exploiting the DoF zone to put the focus zone where I want it, for 'selective-focus' rather than 'shallow-focus'.

Going to annoy you a bit now, after you have spent £150 on the Nik 35mm AF-S f1.8 'prime'.... I have to admit, I bought that lens, and the AF-S 50mm f1.8 prime for my daughter for her school photography, and I have been sorely tempted to get another 35 for myself.... BUT, as alluded to, I bought a 'legacy adaptor' to take M42 screw-fit lenses, so that I could use some of my old manual-focus primes from film cameras, and I have a Pentacon 29mm f2.8, that has almost the same Angle-of-View, and is only a little slower on aperture; likewise the Ziess 50 that's also f2.8, then the 15 mentioned that's also f2.8.. notably faster that one than much in the AF arena with that sort of reach that doesn't cost thousands!But this lot cost me relative pennies!

I think I paid about £20 for the legacy adaptor to mount them to the DSLR. I bought the more expensive version that has an 'infinity correction element', as the adaptor, moving the lens forwards on the camera, like a macro-ring shifts the focus calibration, so they focus closer to the camera, but some wont focus on infinity without the correction element. I acquired my M42 primes over the years, years back; most often given to me by folk who didn't or couldn't use them or the cameras they were mounted on (lucky me!) or in the second hand shops for maybe a couple of quid, or tops a fiver a time! But even now, if you hunt e-bay, yo can get 'good' old manual focus lenses like these, for between perhaps £10 & £30. Even my beloved Ziess 50, would only command about £50 on the bay, but a faster f1.8 Pentacon 50 might only cost you £20-£25.. that's a LOT of lens for your money! And personally, I've confirmed the suggestion that these 'legacy' lenses for old 35mm cameras, are so much 'sharper' on a crop-sensor DSLR only taking a picture from the middle of the larger image circle, intended for a larger full-frame camera, as well as being a joy to use! Just think, you could have had an adaptor and a full set of good, fast primes for less than that Nikon AF-S 35! (sorry!)

Worth a thuk, though, if you DO want to learn how to exploit 'selective focus' rather than just 'shallow focus'.... as mentioned, you get manual focus lenses that demand you manually focus them where you want, not what the camera thinks you should, and that have both focus scales and DoF markings to help you put the DoF zone where you want it.

And for the learning? Well, actually having to manually focus, and put in a bit more effort, time and thought to focusing, THAT is what will encourage you to get what YOU want, and make the camera work for you, rather than simply hoping it delivers it for you.

I will say though, on my DSLR (D3200) not so sure about yours, using manual focus lenses that don't have any electronics in them to talk to the camera through the contacts on the mount, I can only use them in full Manual mode, and have to set the ISO, and shutter manually on the camera, and the aperture on the lens; I loose all 'automation' with them, AND the camera, not told what the aperture setting is by the lens, refuses to even offer 'exposure' metering.... Its like using my old Russian Zenit 35mm SLR! That has no metering either; had to estimate exposures by the f16 sunny rule, or use an independent hand-held meter, or get an exposure value off another 'metered' camera to use that one! I don't find it a big issue using the manual lens on the DSLR in the same way; but I can get a 'base' exposure value from it uing the kit lens before swapping to the legacy lenses, or I can chimp-it, or in parlance, 'suck it and see', taking a wild guess at exposure settings, taking a shot with them, and then looking at the preview on the screen on the back, and adjusting settings from there. That shot above, was actually 'metered' by guestimate from the f16-sunny rule, though... it was a bit of a 'grab'.. as in I had grabbed the camera, and it still had the legacy lens on it, and to get some pictures before the little squid ran off down the park or got covered in mud or anything, I did't have time to swap lenses to get a base metering, or faff trying to find the hand-held meter, so had to 'wing-it'..

Which is another bit of 'learning' these lenses have to offer. Far too many folk get far to hung up on their 'exposure' settings, and 'accurate exposures', which is frankly often irrelevant. There's no such thing as a 'correct' exposure, and what the camera suggests as its scientifically calculated 'best' exposure value, often isn't what looks 'best'.. and it probably doesn't matter a stop or so either way how 'close' it is! Learn to assess the light for yourself, and treat the cameras metering as a guide, not a rule.

However.... enough about the 'kit'.... lets talk KIDS. Infuriating little things that deplete your patience, your bank-balance and steal all your marbles; they dont sit still, they are governed by the laws of Brownian motion, not physics, and are generally put on this earth to drive you NUTS! Especially if you are trying to get a photo of one!

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I think that was my daughter's 4th & my son's 3rd birthday party... yeah.... I actually quite like the blurr... it's very 'true' to the scene I was observing! Thirty three and four year old's and a bouncy castle in the Church hall! HELP! Give me alcohol! I NEED GIN! lol! By the end of the afternoon, I think they were probably all worn out and crabby, lying on the floor calling for their mummy.. but after enough gin they were STILL blurry ;-)

Photographing children is a discipline in itself. But, like most photo, the 'trick' is in the subject, not the camera. There is only SO much you can do, standing back, trying to hide in the
shadows ad capture them 'unobtrusively'.

If you want good kid-pix, then first you need to get into their world, and that means getting down to their level, crouching down on your knees or even lying down on the floor to see the world as they do from a low vantage point.. you wont get that, standing on the side-lines!

Taking that a step further; you have to REALLY get into the kids world; YOU have to forget that the other grown-ups exist... if you are worried that a pop-up flash will draw attention to you... you are NOT in the kids world! You have to think like the kids, they are 'playing' so YOU have to 'play', you have to chuck yourself into their world and like them, ignore the grown ups until one of them tells you off, or hands you a lolly!

You play with them; you engage with them, you talk to them! You let them accept you into their world.. and accept the camera.. and then ignore it!

You'll get very natural and intimate candids of them playing, around you, or with you, in which they will be amenable to posing for you.... either because you say "Hey, Megan!" and she looks at you, and the camera, and 'snap' you got'em, or you say, "Oscar! Why don't you kick that ball?" and they do, ad there's your shot.

Yup... its a BIT like herding cats... OK, its a LOT like herding cats! BUT, that's where the skill is to kids photography, like wedding photography or still life, its managing your subject; MAKING the photo's you want, not standing around hoping that they'll just happen, or that the camera will make them happen for you.

If you want to buy ANYTHING to help you take better kid-pix? Well....
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Buy a bottle or three of soap-bubbles! LoL! It's the classic exercise in kid-photography. This shot's an early experiment; blown high-lights I think from having shot it on slide-film and then 'duped' it to colour-print; the model in this case my five year-old little bother, in the back garden, shortly after I got my first SLR.... But I tell you what, a bottle of soap-bubbles in my camera bag, got me more good kiddie pix than ANY amount of lenses or flash or filters. Actually, worked pretty good on a lot of grown-ups too!

It's about crossing that glass wall, and getting 'in' to your subjects world, rather than looking at it through the window of the view-finder.
 
Thanks again for all the replies, Mike I now know that I am indeed learning because 5 weeks ago your very thorough post would've been double Dutch but now I'd say I understood the vast majority of it, I couldn't pass an exam on it but it certainly made sense.

htid, I've been back over a lot of my photos looking at the exif which is something I'd never done before and I can see on most of them my mistakes, I'll certainly learn a lot from looking more indepth into my photos. It seems like I'm using ridiculously high iso's on a lot of them, often in the thousands, in hindsight I know I do it, I'm rushing to get my aperture settings sorted before the action I want to shoot moves on and it's often a bit dark so I whack the iso right up, this is a prime example, I was messing around with my camera in the garden practising on various things when my daughter called me, I looked up and she was in the shed so I quickly took a photo which was very dark and in a panic raised the iso hugely. I LOVE the photo, it's captured her perfectly but it's so grainy and the light on the shed door is blinding. I'm gutted.
The exif is 1/200sec, f/22, 58mm, ISO 2000!


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This photo is my "Photoshop goal", I've bought Elements 14 (plus the book!) and one day I hope to process it so it's suitable to frame a large print, so far I can't even get the bright shed door sorted without it being blindingly obvious but I will although I have my doubts I'll ever get rid of the bloody padlock.

The next one is one from the Staffordshire Day yesterday and is my youngest digging for the Staffordshire Hoard, it was indoors under fluorescent lighting but there was a huge window so a lot of light, it was one of the two 'ok' photos but it's not as sharp as I'd hoped and her hand is blurred. 1/60sec, f4 35mm on my new prime lens. ISO 800.
DSC_0036_zpsiilatevz.jpg


Finally Mikes bubble shot reminded me of this one that I'm also gutted about because it's a one off shot that again is ruined by blur, it was on my kit lens and the exif is 1/250, f8, 55mm, ISO 220.
DSC_0866_zps3iqhcssv.jpg

I have a few taken with the bubbles with no blur but I assume she just moved her hands faster on this one and the shutter was too slow.

Paul, I'm definitely going to get out a few evenings this week without either kids or dogs and focus on inanimate things to ease the pressure of trying to adjust the settings in a few seconds, I live in walking distance of a country park so there's plenty of good locations.
 
I think you may be trying a bit tooo hard, ad over-thinking it all a bit tooo much.. every one of those three shots you are looking DOWN on your subject.. stuff the settings! Get down to their level, see the world from their point of view!

The shed-shot is lovely; WHY the heck are you worried about how grainy the shot may be when you go pixel peeping? Actually WHY the heck are you pixel peeping? Why are you concerned with your aperture settings and the contrast between the sun-lit door and shadowed shed interior?

- WHY are you taking these photo's?
- Who is going to look at them?
- What will they be interested in, in the photo's?

Few other than other pixel-peeping photo-nerds are ever going to give two hoots about how grainy the picture is, or what aperture & ISO setting you used; and a 20-odd MPix photo, shrunk down by the display driver to fit on a computer monitor that at best has no more than maybe 5Mpix resolution, and more likely 1Mpix, let alone typical small screen device most likely to be viewed on, like a tablet or i-phone? Crikey they ENT going to ever see it! Pre-sized to under 1Mpix for web-up-load? It ent even going to be there for them to see!

You are being over critical, I think, and worrying about the wrong things too much.

Worry about the subject, not the settings! - Stop paying so much attention looking AT the camera, and more time looking THROUGH the darn thing!

And don't be scared to use the 'easements' it offers by way of the 'auto' and program modes! Don't make work for yourself! You didn't pay umpety hundred quid for a camera with a brain the size of a small planet, and enough 'smart' programming expertise crammed into it, than most experts can gather in a life time or three, to turn all that 'off', and use it like my old clock-work Zenith, the 'smartest' feature of which being the film ASA setting that does nothing more than remind you what speed film you have loaded, and do all the work yourself.. especially when as a beginner, the camera probably knows a darn site more than you do!

Camera can work out pretty darn well what aperture, shutter and ISO is likely to be appropriate for the light level it is measuring, and the focus distance its measuring; but it hasn't got a CLUE what you are pointing it at... you do...so trust the camera, let it do the bit it's good at, working out exposure settings, you worry just about the bit you should know most about, deciding where to point it!

Style and effect? That's all just 'seasoning', can make a good photo better, but it wont make a master-piece on it's own... worry about that 'subject' not the 'style'.. knowing how to get t is nice, but its ot all THAT important.

If the subject is interesting to the intended audience they'll 'like' the photo, and few will see the faults, no matter how critical you may be about them.

Slow down; dot rush, ask yourself those three questions, WHY?, WHO, WHAT? Before you pick up the camera, ad shoot stuff to be seen.

Next? "North-South-East-West - Check the corers, the the rest" look at everything in the frame before you press the shutter; be sure of your composition.

And just an observation, remember you CAN turn the camera through 90 degrees t shoot n the 'portrait' orientation, not just land-scape... tends to work quite well for portraits, the portrait orientation, curiously....

Meanwhile, taking topic of the blurry back-ground off in a different direction;

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That's the lickerish-stick (as in she goes all giggly and cries 'lik-rish!' when you tickle her!) from last post, a year or two earlier. Actually Christmas I got the DSLR.

Shot on 'portrait' auto, I let the camera do the work! That's what I paid all the money for, not to 'faff'! Especially when trying to keep up with a turbo-charged toddler over-dosed on Christmas tree candy all day at every stop at a relatives!

In-Doors, Pop-up flash, at short range, has illuminated the little squib quite nicely, but the cluttered back-ground, further from the flash and shadowed by the subject, has been left in ambient light to be rendered dark and under-exposed and 'like' selective focus draw viewer's attention to the subject, but using lighting, in this case flash you are wary of, rather than either shallow or selective focus.

It's a technique that you can apply out-doors as well, and in good day-light, where 'fill-in-flash' can be used to flatten 'shadows' from natural lighting, or again, change the emphasis on elements within the scene, 'spot-lighting' what you want to draw the viewers attention to.

Notice it's shot from her level and with the camera on its side in portrait mode! - its this small attention to compositor that will likely do far more for your photo's for a log while than worrying abour pixel-peeping 'sharpness', settings or style. Look through it, not at it!
 
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Mike has a good point - it's the subject that matters, and you need to learn to use the camera so that you're concentrating on the image not the technicalities.

However, whilst you're getting to that point, you can smarten up your decision making process.

The first shot; isn't spoiled by the grain, but the bright spot on the right is a distraction. The 2 lessons to take from your mistakes there are to look all round the viewfinder, and use your aperture wisely, the only time I've ever shot at f/22 was to create a purposely low shutter speed - the only people who use apertures that small regularly are macro shooters. A touch of fill flash from your pop up would have improved it too (more at the end)

The 2nd; the subject movement is a shame, but it's not a deal breaker.

The 3rd; technically (camera settings) it needed a faster shutter speed, but composition ally it's a complete reject (sorry).

However, as Mike says, they're all a bit 'detatched'. they're your kids, they're used to your presence and presumably you're comfortable around them, get close, get down to their level, draw us in. The viewer should feel like they're sharing a moment, not watching from the sidelines. That 3rd shot should have been a picture of the beaming smile on her face, we should be sharing the simple childish joy of bubbles, it's difficult to even gauge what the subject is in your version of the scene.
 
Hi Esther

Just to give you some sense of perspective - we all take bad photos where the light hasn't worked in our favour or, even more basically, we just had our camera in the wrong mode/setup incorrectly. We also have compositional failures (me more than most). So don't judge yourself on your bad shots, judge yourself on the ones you're happiest with. But learn from all of them - what worked and what didn't work.

Phil and Mike make some good points - photographing people is about engagement and story-telling. Your point of view (where you/the camera is in relation to the subject - higher/lower etc.) is a very powerful tool, as is eye contact and obviously light. In a way, everything else in the scene is usually secondary, except for shots which require a lot of context to explain the story.

As an example, the shot below is a grab shot I took yesterday. Compositionally it's acceptable (but not much more - it's a very simple image), the lighting is pretty dreadful and I cropped it in a decent chunk (I try to shoot slightly wider to give myself a bit of compositional "latitude" in cropping). Before taking the shot, I had noted the sun was fairly high (3:30pm), passing behind clouds and then "out" in full, so it was about timing (getting the sun behind the clouds) and choosing a part of the wooden fort that would keep the sun over my shoulder. She was on the first level, so I was looking up, which meant the light was even worse - brighter sky behind her whilst she looked down, so no catchlights. I wanted the posts to act as something of a frame and I'll happily admit I took a series of 4-5 shots within a few seconds as she walked along, poking her head out in between the posts. This was the "least bad" one, so to just get an average shot (barely a keeper) my hit rate was only 20%.

You'll notice I didn't mention camera settings. The reason being is they were less important than the stuff above! I was using my walkaround zoom set to just short of its maximum focal length (65mm which is equivalent to about 40mm on your camera), but I could have zoomed out and got closer or used a different lens and stood further back. I chose f/4 because I wanted shallower depth of field but not wafer thin. I knew I was shooting away from the sun so my shutter speed was going to be fast but not so fast that it would max out (can happen at wide apertures with lots of natural light). I could happily have chosen f/5.6 or something as well, without really affecting the end result - so fast lenses aren't important in this sort of image. ISO was set to 100 with shutter speed varying - given it's outside I knew I would have a fast enough shutter speed. My metering mode was whatever it was (highlight priority).

Most importantly, I was playing games (hide and seek) with my daughter, even though I had my camera to my eye - and it was about timing. Net result, a fairly cr@ppy photo from a technical perspective, but a fun image which for me captured the moment. And that was what was important to me.

9Hqs6Kz.jpg


Not sure if any of this helps you, but I'm trying to put it all into perspective - image "feeling" comes first and technicals are way behind - for this type of shot, for me at least.
 
As above the 2 most important decisions in taking s photo:
Where to stand (sit or lie)
When to press the shutter

Surprisingly; these decisions are very tricky to explain.

Cameras, lenses, f stops and shutter speeds are easy to understand (I appreciate for a newbie it doesn't feel that way). So forums are full of people discussing the almost irrelevant and rarely the important stuff.
 
Apologies - I'm on a roll now...

This is why I never responded to the initial posting. It's not about a 'low light lens', it's about the low light lens that does what you want. 35mm and 50mm are totally different focal lengths they're not in some way interchangeable just because they're similar prices and have a fixed fast(ish) aperture.

My answer would have been 85mm, because on a crop body it's a really flattering focal length to use, and as it's a longer FL it's easier to get an engaging image. It would have been easier to improve each of your images posted here with a longer lens.

I'll shut up now I've vented.
 
Thank you again for the replies, the bubble shot wasn't the best but I just wanted to show the blur, I have another one taken a few moments later where she's chasing a bubble towards me and, to me, much better but with the one I posted I liked how it was bursting on her face, I did get it printed off with a close crop and adjusted the lighting to try as it was a dreary day but I knew it was only ever destined to be put in an album for when she's older.

I'm assuming that for those of you with tons of knowledge and experience it becomes second nature to see through the viewfinder what will be a decent shot and automatically adjust the settings to get the perfect shot, I'd be interested to know though if you still take snapshots that are full of faults yet you still print purely because it's a memory like you would have before you became a photographer or are you always in professional mode when you use a camera? A bit like separating work from pleasure.

The weather's looking good for a few days so I plan to get out in the garden and use all your tips to try and become part of the action and not just a bystander, it makes a lot of sense.
 
It's not really about 'professional', I shoot professionally because my pictures are worth paying for (not really a measure of talent); there isn't a point at which I can switch off 30 years of knowledge and experience, using a camera is as automatic as riding a bike or driving a car. But I'm far from an amazing image maker.

Of course loads of my photos are simple grab and grins, both personal and commissioned. But when shooting candids, it's all about the subject, trying to capture their personality.
 
Thank you again for the replies, the bubble shot wasn't the best but I just wanted to show the blur, I have another one taken a few moments later where she's chasing a bubble towards me and, to me, much better but with the one I posted I liked how it was bursting on her face, I did get it printed off with a close crop and adjusted the lighting to try as it was a dreary day but I knew it was only ever destined to be put in an album for when she's older.

Brilliant... make a really strong mental note about why that image works for you. These are your images and if there's a feature like that which strikes a chord set out to repeat it. Often. By all means take on board a bit of comment about engagement, composition etc. and the next time, but these are your photos.

I'm assuming that for those of you with tons of knowledge and experience it becomes second nature to see through the viewfinder what will be a decent shot and automatically adjust the settings to get the perfect shot, I'd be interested to know though if you still take snapshots that are full of faults yet you still print purely because it's a memory like you would have before you became a photographer or are you always in professional mode when you use a camera? A bit like separating work from pleasure.

I have very little knowledge or experience compared with probably most of the regular posters here. Doesn't stop me chipping in with my 2c though :) I actually find the discussion & critique process as valuable to improving my own photography as actually getting out and shooting...

When I (re)started my hobby a couple of years ago, I found I was "forcing" shots into the keeper category... 'this is out of focus, but I love his look'... or... 'it's a cluttered background, but I like the light'. Over time that flipped around and now it's about pushing photos out which are technically fine but lacking in emotion or engagement (for me, personally). Previously I'd have been proud at demonstrating I can use my camera accurately and effectively, but now it's just a conduit and if what's at the other end of the lens isn't appealing it doesn't matter how expertly I've managed that conduit...

The weather's looking good for a few days so I plan to get out in the garden and use all your tips to try and become part of the action and not just a bystander, it makes a lot of sense.

Excellent... that's when photography really gets fun - when you're part of the story. Remember though that shooting on a sunny day can be even harder than when it's cloudy or overcast...
 
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