Beginner Lower Megapixels = Better Image Quality?

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Jim
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I was reading somewhere that if you shoot at a lower megapixel setting you'll get better image quality. Is there any truth to this? I get that the smaller sensors on compacts will not give as good quality due to manufacturers cramming in more MPs but is this true of dslrs - does it make any difference knocking down to medium size instead of large (Nikon d3200 )?

I'm thinking of doing this anyway just to make it easier for my PC to handle the files, I'm presuming it won't have any detrimental effects on image quality even if it doesn't better it?
 
Take the very best image in camera and manipulate the image and quality downwards afterwards if necessary. You cant practically go up.

That way you can reduce those shots which are merely keepers opposed to stunners to save space on your HDD and keep a select few at max resolution.

Unfortunately IQ will be affected, not so that you can see on screen usually or for postcard prints but if you have ambitions towards cropping or producing exhibition prints or those for competitions at say 16x20 then as a general rule you need those MPs.
 
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Sounds like something Ren Kockwell would come out with.

Agree with shreds, capture the very best you can for the most part. There will be some occasions when less is acceptable, but less in this case is definitely not more!
 
Take the very best image in camera and manipulate the image and quality downwards afterwards if necessary. You cant practically go up.

That way you can reduce those shots which are merely keepers opposed to stunners to save space on your HDD and keep a select few at max resolution.

Unfortunately IQ will be affected, not so that you can see on screen usually or for postcard prints but if you have ambitions towards cropping or producing exhibition prints or those for competitions at say 16x20 then as a general rule you need those MPs.
This^
The 'less megapixels' point is largely academic, the sensor on your camera has a fixed grid of photosites, removing the output of them from the image you capture isn't the same thing as having larger more efficient photosites.
 
I suspect you have been reading a bit f Ken Rockwell on the topic of the D3200.. and his comments that the 24Mpix 'resolution' of that camera is 'wasted' by the Kit Lens that can't resolve the level of detail that the camera might capture..... (am close?)... but we'll return to that.

A crop sensor is 18x24mm, a full frame sensor 24x36mm; to all extents and purposes its 'Half-Frame', as in half the sensor area. So.. if you have the same sensor resolution, the individual receptors on the bigger sensor will be, err... bigger... which means that they can catch more photons of light, during an exposure, meaning that they can grab a much 'stronger' signal, before processing, which in turn means that the original signal should be 'cleaner' and need less amplification, before being sampled to get the 'digits' a digital camera records. Next up the lens, putting the image on a bigger sensor, does't have to have as much (reverse) magnification or bend light as much, so there's less opportunity for distortion, and from the larger scale, any there is, will tend to be a smaller % of the sensor size... so you get a number of complimentary effects from a bigger sensor, that are 'good' for IQ; This is basic reasons large sensor 'Full-Frame' cameras can deliver better IQ than Crop-Sensor ones, and where they can still maintain that IQ advantage even when they have Pixel counts much lower than on a smaller sensor.

What you asked, indirectly was whether, shooting at 'Medium' 4512x3000 instead of 'Large' 6016x4000,on the D3200, would have the same effect on IQ by effectively reducing receptor density on the sensor, as going to a larger sensor.... And the short answer is NO, its still a small sensor camera, and the receptors are still the same size, capturing just the same amount of light, provided by a lens with just as much (reverse) magnification...

Elaborating on Phil's comment (While I was compiling this!) Cherry picking some graphics from tutorial Understanding; Mega Pixels, Mega Bytes; tif, jpg, bmp, nef, & raw?
image.png

There is a pixel array, in this case, 60 x 40, the 'grid' that the the camera fills in 'painting by numbers' to make a picture (usually with a lot more squares though!)
And, easy to think, that the camera sensor has a similar grid, with a receptor for each pixel it will make in the photo... Trouble is, to make a colour photo, you need to get three numbers, for each pixel; one for the level of red, one for the level of green, one for the level of blue. Number of ways you could do this, and the simplest would be to have three receptors for each square... which is awkward and reduces your receptor density three fold.. so they don't... they tend to use a honey-comb array, rather than a grid array, a bit like this;-
image.png

Shown to a larger scale; but, you can see how you have a honey comb array of alternate red, green and blue receptors, that give pretty much the maximum receptor density; taking the levels from each of these you can then 'interpolate' the three colour values for the square image 'pixels' over lapping the hexagons; one hexagonal colour receptor providing a colour value for perhaps four square picture pixels over-lapping it.. SO.. your 24 Million picture pixels might have bee created from just 18 million receptors, 6 million of each colour, depending on how much 'interpolation' the camera does to make the image file from the sensor readings. If you switch to a lower image resolution, all the camera will do is change the 'interpolation' calculation to make less image pixels from the same recorded sensor values, it wont 'couple' receptors to grab a larger signal like having a bigger receptor.

Back to Ken Rockwell.... He suggested that the 24MPix sensor count on the D3200 was a bit of a gimmick for a entry level camera, to wow bigger is better is more 'consumers', who want bragging rights printed on the box..... and there may be more than a grain of truth in that.... he then went on to say that the kit 18-55 lens it ship with is not really sharp enough to resolve the detail that the sensor can at highest res setting.. which also possibly has more than a little truth behind it.... before he went on to compare to the D3100, and suggest that not trying to process so many pixels, that was the better 'balanced' package, and a D3200 at 'medium' resolution, delivered as much IQ as the lens could provide, while managing the file sizes much more easily.. which is probably also not unreasonable. Its HORRIBLE to actually agree with the chap, if only in part given his reputation... especially as a D3200 owner..... however...

Weak link in the chain, as far as image quality goes, on this camera IS, that kit lens. Its not a BAD lens... it's just not 'great'. I've shot my daughter's 35mm f1.8 on it ad that IS a verry sweet little lens and far sharper than the kit zoom; I have also shot most of my 'Legacy' M42 screw lenses from film cameras on it via adaptor, and again, they show me, that that kit 18-55 and even my 55-300 are no where near as good as they could be.. but for what £70 for the 18-55 and £150 for the 55-300, they are certainly pretty good for the money, and who am I trying to impress here? They are certainly 'adequate' for my purposes at least but, if your looking for IQ gains, that's first place I'd suggest you look, and from discussion on your 'portfolio' post, of where you are at and what you are about, that 35mm f1.8, could be a good way to go on that front, but, that's another topic.

There is good reason NOT to shoot at 24Mpix on this camera; it does make for cumbersome large file sizes, especially in NEF. (about double Jpeg Lage + fine) If you are machine gunning an action sequence, as my daughter was the other week, lying on the floor whilst her brother rode a BMX at and over her (eeeek! with MY camera in her hand!!! EEEk EEK!!).. can hit the buffers pretty quick, and you start dropping shots.. camera also gets rather more than a 'bit' warm. So circumstance dependent, if you can live with a lower resolution, maybe times it cold be useful, but NOT for IQ.

As for the upload speed clearing down the SD card? I rarely find that much of a chore, even using a cheap memory-stick card reader on a USB front port. More significant is keeping the card clean, not having a chunk of already up-loaded pictures on it for the PC to 'read' before moving the new ones, and having a decent, 45Mb/s or quicker card to start with. Smaller cards can actually be a bit of a boon here, demanding you keep-em clean, and not giving PC so much to read before it displays it or shifts it... b-u-t... even a 'dirty' slow 32Gb card on that plug-in reader... plug it in, select all, drag ad drop, leave it to run while you put the kettle on and put the batteries on charge! Its not a real 'problem'.

Will using a lower resolution be detrimental to your image quality? Err... probably not... as said IQ's effected by a whole bag of stuff, not just pixel count... which you will probably be reducing for most display purposes anyway. Daughter does well enough with her D3100 with its mere 16Mpix resolution as its 'best' setting, printing up to A2 size for her school-work..

Reason I bought the D3200 over that, though is 'cropping', where you might chuck away a lot of them pixies before display; and I have a full-round 4.5 fisheye with 180 degree field of view on both axis, making a round image in the middle of the frame, on barely half the available pixels. And with that amount of 'masking' before I might take a square out of the circle the extra resolution is VERY worth while;

But most of the time? Does't make that much odds, and as 99.9999% of everything I ever shoot only ever gets looked at on a monitor, with a 1024x780 ish screen resolution, its ALWAYS going to be down-sized, if not by me, to something around 1000px on the long side for upload, then by the graphic card when it sends the signal to the screen.
 
Yep, it was on Ken Rockwell's site, that's why I thought I'd double check - there seems to usually be some controversy surrounding what he says!

So basically, the camera will utilize the sensor in exactly the same way for large and medium settings? And the only difference comes from the size of the photosites and sensor your particular camera has? Well, that and lens quality and shooter's capability.

All things being more or less equal then (not taking into account file size), you may as well shoot at large and have the option to crop.
 
Cropping is handy sometimes in different ways. I've done that along with interpolation.

If you need to do really detailed editing you'll find smaller image sizes a bit limiting. In my opinion around 20 MP is just about perfect. I'd think more than that is just surplus in many photographers' contexts.
 
Well, Hugh, I've found in practice that in the past about 22 has allowed me to work on finer detail in film scans -- the slender stems of small plants, detail in someone's eyes or flowers, for example. That kind of thing. So I'm surmising there comes a cut-off point where larger image sizes wouldn't be particularly useful. Not to me anyway.

Who on this forum really needs 36? That's a genuine question! Maybe I'm missing something.

I've switched to more portable Fujifilm cameras that produce 16 MP images. That's less than I would like at times for some editing, but it's adequate.
 
There are times that I love having 36....

& there are times its a pain...

But it is just a tool & just like hammers its sometimes better to just hit it once with the biggest...lol
 
I read in a book, yes it happens now and again,that once cameras got to 5mp, that when it was equal to 35mm film in quality. Not sure the film shooters on here will agree though lol
 
I read in a book, yes it happens now and again,that once cameras got to 5mp, that when it was equal to 35mm film in quality. Not sure the film shooters on here will agree though lol
Oh, I'd not disagree.... to a degree.. ish.. in general..... for most practical purposes.. for what it matters ... with reservation.... pending a lot of qualification... maybe...

35mm was the size of the film stock; you got good emulsion and crap emulsion in that size, and could stick it into any sort of camera from a 99p, plastic lens, 'toy' from woolies, with a fixed aperture and shutter, to a precision made Leica with Ziess glass on the front... what does 5Mpix compare to? And 5Mpix from what? A micro-sensor Camera-Phone? A Lensless compact? A mid-range compact? An early full-frame DSLR? Its a meaningless comparison, open to such huge variation in what might being compared as to be almost irrelevant and useless. And even more so, having already established that image pixel count is only one element of overall Image Quality.
 
Well, Hugh, I've found in practice that in the past about 22 has allowed me to work on finer detail in film scans -- the slender stems of small plants, detail in someone's eyes or flowers, for example. That kind of thing. So I'm surmising there comes a cut-off point where larger image sizes wouldn't be particularly useful. Not to me anyway.
To offer a little counter-point, I've often found it easier to work on lower res files.

The bulk of my image editing recent years has been restoring or recovering old film scans; Most usually around 16Mpix or so, though I have worked on files up to maybe 100Mpix... chasing out scratches? Touching in spots... and and after the first half dozen or so of a batch....... Oh bludger it! Resize to 2000x3000.. what can I still see!

I had something of an epiphany trying to sort around 200 or more photo's of my Grandparents Golden Wedding adversary of many years ago, as I struggled to salvage pictures take in dark rooms without a flash, or shot straight into the sun, or half masked by fingers in front of lenses; cameras held wonky, you know ALL the errors of the family snap-shot...... "WHO CARES!"

The main interest in these pictures was the long departed loved ones and hair! No-one was going to start grumbling about anything being slightly out of focus, let alone the odd dust mott, or blown high-light, provided it didn't jarr or detract from the main interest too much.. they'd look at and like almost any old rubbish... as long as it was 'interesting'.. image quality, significantly immaterial for the most part... might be nice, but not essential, in a awful lot of cases; but very easy, to loose sight of that bigger picture, getting bogged down in the detail.

Dropping the pixel count, then can quickly hide a multitude of sins at a stroke and give you less to start chasing after, dumping detail you might get bogged down in, while giving the computer an easier time, not having to hold so much in cashe or process as much for any change, so it all runs faster and smoother.

Doing more convoluted manipulations, usually creating masks; often on direct to digital images, again, dumping detail in higher res, will often give edge detection a much easier time, and get a more accurate mask from a faster one-touch command, than at higher res, while going down to pixel level to dress it up manually, at lower res you get more 'context' around the pixels you are trying to tidy, and you don't as easily get lost the forest unable to see the wood for the trees, as it were...

Doing multi-Image Merges? Panorama stitchig? HDR or exposure stacks? Again, working at maybe 6Mpix, it all runs a lot faster and smoother, than at 24! Especially if you have more than three images to jiggle!.. 8 image panorama stitch on my PC? at 24Mpix? load it up, hit the button, go to bed, see what its done in the morning, it will take hours not second!..... & Going to end up with a 100Mpix image you are gong to shrink back to 24 or so anyway, so why not resize the sections to 6Mpx to start with and see what you got in the time it takes to make a cuppa?

So while it's 'nice' to have that extra resolution out of the camera to be able to play with in PP.... there's some merit in the Clean-in-Camera discipline it 'breaks'... "Oh, well, I have to open it up in PP to resize for upload..... oh.. I'll just..... straighten that horizon.. Hmmmm... I think I'll just look at the levels curve".. or "Hmm.. I wonder if there's a different photo to be cropped out of this one?" and no longer are you 'just' resizing... (Guilty Mi-Lud!)

Not having the resolution to start with, then, can to some degree make you a little more diligent, and discerning to do it 'Clean in Camera', and get it right, right at the start, rather than post processing as habit, instead of as required.

Of course.. if you have the disciple to start with, and can get it clean in camera at highest res, and keep PP to minimum or plan.. you're onto a winner.. (NOT guilty, mi-lud!)
 
Well, Hugh, I've found in practice that in the past about 22 has allowed me to work on finer detail in film scans -- the slender stems of small plants, detail in someone's eyes or flowers, for example. That kind of thing. So I'm surmising there comes a cut-off point where larger image sizes wouldn't be particularly useful. Not to me anyway.

Who on this forum really needs 36? That's a genuine question! Maybe I'm missing something.

I've switched to more portable Fujifilm cameras that produce 16 MP images. That's less than I would like at times for some editing, but it's adequate.


Thats it. Not to you ;).

When I've seen my stuff on the back of a London bus and need to print that big 36 is very handy
 
I hear what you're saying, Hugh, fair enough.

I'm no expert on the refined techniques used to create very large displays, but I'm guessing that at typical viewing distances there wont be much difference, if any, between 2 huge interpolated images, one that was originally 22, the other 36.
 
Mike, enjoyed your post. :)

I can appreciate what you say. I've scanned lots of old prints, some of them on the most horrible textured paper you could imagine. What a job! Did my head in. Worked on old slides too.

Because I was creating new prints of various sizes, I had to scan big to deal with all those spots and scratches and creases. I particularly remember a larger very old print that had been torn into 4 pieces. Some individual slides took a long time to properly restore.

If I was doing work like this for digital display images only then I'd make reduced copies of the original large files and start there. Working at smaller sizes means some software tools can correct more problems more quickly -- bliss! In the past on photo forums I've 'fixed' others' images but felt a bit of a cheat sometimes because working with small images was much easier than full-size!
 
I was reading somewhere that if you shoot at a lower megapixel setting you'll get better image quality. Is there any truth to this? I get that the smaller sensors on compacts will not give as good quality due to manufacturers cramming in more MPs but is this true of dslrs - does it make any difference knocking down to medium size instead of large (Nikon d3200 )?

I'm thinking of doing this anyway just to make it easier for my PC to handle the files, I'm presuming it won't have any detrimental effects on image quality even if it doesn't better it?

Maybe what you read is a reference to the fact that nowadays newer cameras could fit in more and more MPs, like 10MP, 15MP, even 20MP, you do not need to aim for higher number just to print small. Maybe you were reading about the fact that there is a minimum size you should think about rather than aiming for a maximum size. As far as I can see, it seems that a lower megapixel like 3MP or 4MP is good enough for general prints like 6"x4", and that a something like 5MP to 7MP is good enough for printing up to A4 size. That lower is good enough for image quality on smaller print out, it is only if you are going for bigger than A4 size, then you'll notice a tad lower image quality unless you aim for a little higher number of MPs in the camera.

Compact cameras with something like 3MP or 4MP is still good enough for small prints (if printing A4, you'll notice the changes in quality), but most compact camera are more likely to have 5MP or more, so are still good enough for small prints.

The "better image quality" you are referring to, will only depend on the print size, and therefore may be true if smaller prints up to A4 size, but not true for bigger than A4. (But then again, if you factor in the dpi settings, the maths got to be reworked to allow for this.)

I'm assuming that you have something like a 10MP (purely as an example) camera, and you're referring to the camera's menu settings, like quality setting, such as if you wanted lower settings like setting up your camera for 5MP or 7MP according to manual (again purely as example), rather than talking about actually buying camera model with lower MP setting than another camera model?

As far as I can tell, same thing applies, use your camera's menu to lower the setting, and you still get good image quality if printing on smaller size, hardly any different from buying a camera with lower MPs.
 
Its not really better image quality, I would often export my images from Lightroom and limit them to say 2MB just to save size. They would still be big enough to view fullscreen on my laptop (the only way id look at them really) but take up so much less space and the images looked better; the defects were harder to see. I think in that sense its better, youre less likely to see any dust on the sensor or lens, any fringing or aberrations, etc. I suppose its not what youre asking but id always shoot in the highest resolution and reduce it after if needed.
 
There is a mathematical process often referred to as "pixel binning". Simply put, this essentially averages adjacent pixels in order to give a lower pixel RAW file. This means that noise is reduced, just in the same way as taking 5 identical shots at ISO12800 and averaging the combined shots in Photoshop will produce a lower noise image. I will use MRAW on my Canon at very high ISOs to get better noise. The sacrifice is total MP count of course.
 
I'm assuming that you have something like a 10MP (purely as an example) camera, and you're referring to the camera's menu settings, like quality setting, such as if you wanted lower settings like setting up your camera for 5MP or 7MP according to manual (again purely as example), rather than talking about actually buying camera model with lower MP setting than another camera model?

As far as I can tell, same thing applies, use your camera's menu to lower the setting, and you still get good image quality if printing on smaller size, hardly any different from buying a camera with lower MPs.

Yeah, that is pretty much what I mean.

As an example of what I'm getting at: If you have two compact cameras - both have the same small sensor, and one camera is 6mp, the other 12mp, wouldn't the one with 6mp produce better images? And transferring that way of thinking to my d3200, is the sensor big enough to be getting the most out of the 24mp highest setting?



I know Mike explained it earlier, but I'm not all that sure I understand it, especially the relationship between receptors and pixels. Is a pixel both the data that is collected in one square on the 'grid' and the square on the grid itself? Then the receptors being something different, a sort of layer of it's own? And if you have 24mpixels, how many receptors are there, three times as many - red,green, blue? My brain hurts!


Knowing this could all be irrelevant if I'm using a crap lens with shaky hands and grubby filteres though :) . Maybe I'm just blowing the importance of this out of proportion and none of it matters in the real world (especially if I end up shooting raw)!
 
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As an example of what I'm getting at: If you have two compact cameras - both have the same small sensor, and one camera is 6mp, the other 12mp, wouldn't the one with 6mp produce better images? And transferring that way of thinking to my d3200, is the sensor big enough to be getting the most out of the 24mp highest setting?

(snip.)


Maybe I'm just blowing the importance of this out of proportion and none of it matters in the real world (especially if I end up shooting raw)!

all things being equal it would nessecarily produce a 'better' inaga

But you are over thinking things
 
I know Mike explained it earlier, but I'm not all that sure I understand it, especially the relationship between receptors and pixels. Is a pixel both the data that is collected in one square on the 'grid' and the square on the grid itself? Then the receptors being something different, a sort of layer of it's own? And if you have 24mpixels, how many receptors are there, three times as many - red,green, blue? My brain hurts!
OK.. in the world of 'digital there is NO 'image' just numbers.
The 'image' is made when the numbers are used to 'paint by numbers', different colours into little squares in a grid.. making a mosaic.. if the grid-squares are small enough, and there's enough of them, viewed from a distance you 'see' an image.. make sense, so far? And the smaller and more numerous the mosaic tiles, the 'finer' the detail you get in your 'image' when that image is painted from the numbers. BUT, until 'something' be it a camera itself or a computer or a printer or whatever is told to actually DO that 'paint by numbers' thing, and MAKE an image.. there Is NO image.. all there is is numbers.. DIGITS.
How the actual readings the camera gets from each individual receptor, get recorded, and whether those recorded numbers in ANY way correspond any more than notionally to image pixels when the image may be rendered, is entirely in question.
There are many standard 'digital image' formats that define how a data-set to render a digital image should be 'coded'; the common J-Peg, Tiff, Giff and Png 'formats' being just a small selection of them.
Explained in the tutorial I linked in earlier post; Understanding; Mega Pixels, Mega Bytes; tif, jpg, bmp, nef, & raw?
But, the important thiing is, that the camera has to 'pre-process' the receptor readings, into a set of instructions to reproduce that image in pixels; how that is done, WILL be pretty much up to the architecture and programming of any specific camera; THEN, it will translate that to whatever 'standard' format, you have told it to store the 'image FILE' in, be it NEF or J-Peg.. and even in THAT, the numbers in the image (make) file, wont be 'pixels' or pixel values; BUT coded instructions to 'make' pixels... that the display device may or may not follow explicitly.. re-sizing or re-colouring being common 'corrections' a display device will apply to a an 'image file' painting by nubers making the image and the pixels you eventually see.
 
Yeah, that is pretty much what I mean.

As an example of what I'm getting at: If you have two compact cameras - both have the same small sensor, and one camera is 6mp, the other 12mp, wouldn't the one with 6mp produce better images? And transferring that way of thinking to my d3200, is the sensor big enough to be getting the most out of the 24mp highest setting?

I know Mike explained it earlier, but I'm not all that sure I understand it, especially the relationship between receptors and pixels. Is a pixel both the data that is collected in one square on the 'grid' and the square on the grid itself? Then the receptors being something different, a sort of layer of it's own? And if you have 24mpixels, how many receptors are there, three times as many - red,green, blue? My brain hurts!

Knowing this could all be irrelevant if I'm using a crap lens with shaky hands and grubby filteres though :) . Maybe I'm just blowing the importance of this out of proportion and none of it matters in the real world (especially if I end up shooting raw)!

Hi James

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "better images". The 12mp camera will resolve twice as much detail as the 6mp camera, so on that basis the image definition is better. The 6mp will have lower noise and produce a cleaner image, so on this basis is better. The 12mp camera will allow a much bigger enlargement so it's better again if you print big.

Your D3200 has a great sensor at 24mp. The limitation will be the lens you are using. If it is the standard Nikon 18-55mm kit lens, you are probably getting only 10-11mp out of it, however put this same lens on a 18mp camera and you will get probably 8-9mp, so the higher resolution sensor will always produce a higher res image.
 
And as sensor technology has progressed...
A 6MP camera from ten years ago will not produce a better image than a recent 12MP camera, probably!
Compare the sensors on a D3200 and a D3 or D4: smaller sensor/bigger sensor, high MP/ lower MP.
And would you see any noticeable difference on a standard laptop screen?

So many variables...
 
Yeah, that is pretty much what I mean.

As an example of what I'm getting at: If you have two compact cameras - both have the same small sensor, and one camera is 6mp, the other 12mp, wouldn't the one with 6mp produce better images? And transferring that way of thinking to my d3200, is the sensor big enough to be getting the most out of the 24mp highest setting?

Lower megapixel sizes will still do good images on smaller papers, like 6"x4", A5, and any various sizes. So either the 6mp camera or the 12mp camera, or the same 12mp camera but on a 6mp setting via the menu, would still give better images whichever way. Of course, a 6mp camera would be cheaper, or using the setting menu to lower from 12mp to 6mp would cut file size.

You only need to make sure you do not go any lower than say 3mps, otherwise lower than that, your images will look rubbish if you attempt to print them on say A4.

You only need to go higher if you're interested in printing on larger than A4, like A3 size or even big poster sizes.

You can do fine with lower mp but just don't go too lower than 3mp if you're printing on up to A4 size.

Well that's just the way I see it.
 
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