McLaren

[spannerdude]

Max has said that if anything is done which can be deemed to be detrimental to Alonso's championship efforts McLaren will be punished again.

I would think sacking him for gross misconduct three races from the end of the season might be considered detrimental?

 

[nilagin]

I really don't know how you can say McLaren tried something and because they didn't actually employ that piece of technology, was not a benefit to them escapes me :shrug: The mere fact that they tested is enough of a proof of fact for me!

Guilty as charged!

.
I didn't say McLaren tried something and decided not to use it. I said that the World Motor Sport Council are summising that McLaren tried something as they do not believe Pedro De La Rosa would have the authority to try stuff off his own back or decide that stuff wasn't worth trying. There is no proof found that McLaren have in fact tried anything.
Although Formula One cars are built to regulations and will look similar to a degree. They can and will look alot different in component form and it wouldn't be hard to realise that what may suit one car will not suit another and wouldn't even be worth considering. The engineers would be able to see this straight away, especially if the documentation and drawings etc. were as comprehensive as they say. As the information had only been viewed by a select few (no proof of otherwise) within the McLaren team, the information would not have been given a proper apraisal and would there fore not have saved any expense or proved of any benefit to the team.
Untill The FIA finds solid proof that McLaren had tested anything within the Ferrari documentation they are no more guilty than they were first time around and that is guilty of possession so the penalty is unjustified.

If you should be wondering, I'm not a McLaren fan, only when they had a blue oval on the car and used the most successful engines in Formula one. Sadly these are no longer in F1.
I am just annoyed that when Ferrari tells the FIA to jump it says how high and performs cart wheels for them.
I'm not alone in this opinion it can be found up and down the pit lane in F1. I read comments as such, recently from two ex F1 drivers who have never had any affiliation to McLaren, other than sharing the pit lane and racetrack.

 

[kamion]

Anyway, the fact is that Alonso is:

1) a cry-baby (always blaming the team and accusing the team of not supporting him, even at the end of Renault days last season),
2) a cheater (sitting on the pitstop blocking Hamilton), and
3) a blackmailer (for threatening Ron Dennis with going to the FIA with the emails)

McLaren was fined because they possessed information that belonged to another team, their drivers (Pedro De La Rosa and Fernando Alonso) and one of their chief engineers used/discussed the information.

Ron Dennis is accepting the fine and wants "closure". He doesn't want any more embarassment for McLaren out of this fiasco.

 

[nilagin]

Well the simple fact that they are not facts is a start I guess.

No evidence was found to discredit De La Rosa's statement about not testing the information. The World Council/FIA just said they did not believe a test driver would be calling the shots on what to test or not.
Extract from WMSC Decsion
3.10 It seems highly unlikely to the WMSC that a test driver would take a decision of this sort on his own
3.17 It seems unlikely to the WMSC that a test driver would engage in such consultations without discussing it any further with anyone else at the team It also seems unlikely that a decision on whether to pursue the matter further would be taken by a test driver on his own
No evidence has been found in any McLaren car or factory pertaining to the Ferrari info or technology.
3.19 Mr Coughlan replies on 14 April 2007 at 14:40 with a technical description which purports to be a description of the principles underpinning the Ferrari braking system. Ferrari have confirmed that the description given is an accurate (though incomplete) description of the principles of its braking system. Coughlan concludes with a statement that "we are looking at something similar". This latter statenment strongly suggests that the McLaren system was being worked on from a position of knowledge of the details of the Ferrari system, which, even if the Ferrari system not being directly copied must be more advantageous to McLaren than designing a system without such knowledge. No evidence found that elements have been copied and incorporated into the McLaren system or even considered.
Max Mosely on prime time TV says the World Council wanted McLaren to be banned for 2008 but he felt it wouldn't be right on something that could not be proved. (i.e Supposition)
Therefore McLaren are no more guilty than they were deemed to be before.
The only guilty parties (proved by way of email evidence) are Alonso, De La Rosa and Coughlan and two of those were given amnesty for giving evidence. Evidence which would only incriminated themselves not the team as a whole.
The Jury (World Motor Sports Council) consists of people who would benefit by the desicion to ban McLaren and and fine them.

 

[nilagin]

Anyway, the fact is that Alonso is:

1) a cry-baby (always blaming the team and accusing the team of not supporting him, even at the end of Renault days last season),
2) a cheater (sitting on the pitstop blocking Hamilton), and
3) a blackmailer (for threatening Ron Dennis with going to the FIA with the emails)

McLaren was fined because they possessed information that belonged to another team, their drivers (Pedro De La Rosa and Fernando Alonso) and one of their chief engineers used/discussed the information.
Ron Dennis is accepting the fine and wants "closure". He doesn't want any more embarassment for McLaren out of this fiasco.

McLaren had already been penalised for this.

 

[Ratty]

So I'm probably not as clueless as you'd like to think.

At no time did I suggest that I thought that.
So please don't imply I've said something I haven't.

I actually agree with pretty much everything else you said BTW.


Can someone find me a translator for Nilagin's posts please.

 

[nilagin]

Can someone find me a translator for Nilagin's posts please.

Quite simple really it is my original post with the FIA's findings in the relevant places. If you read their findings you will see it is all based on their supposition, beliefs and maybe's and no concrete evidence has been found of any technology on McLaren cars or actually tested or used. It is just based on the WMSC's interpretation of what the emails contain.

 

[russdaz]

The thing that some people seem to have forgotten is ACCOUNTABIITLY, in company law.

The company i work for has 2 arms that work closely together as one. One is regulated, the other is un-regulated, but if either branch transfer's information from one to the other in a manor that it wouldnt be available to any other company, then that is classed as spying, there are procedures in place to prevent this.

However, if (say 2 imployees) break the procedures and transfer information between the branches for free, it is the company that becomes liable for the actions of (say these 2 people).

The punishment is 10% (iirc) of the total turnover, which for a global company is huge.

At the end of the day McLearn are accountable for there employee's actions weather they know or actually bennifit from the spying is inmaterial.

This isnt just a case of taking pics of cars then making detailled drawing to try to work out what the other has done, nor is a team trying to push the developement of there car the limits of the rules where boundry's are not clearly defined.

Personal i think the action taken is correct, as it has been proved that the information was in the hands of, and the existance of that information was known by a couple of people within in the company.

The champoinship is still wide open, it is now down to Mclearn to sort there in house issues. Personally if i was Ron i wouldnt let Alonso, or Dela Rosa drive next year and if possible sue them for the loss.

 

[Ratty]

Note the
I don't really want a translation as I can read what you said(although TBH I choose not to now as it's just repetition) and no matter how many times you repeat it it still makes no sense.

I think chuckles pointed out the fundamental flaw in your argument and that still stands.
If you can't accept the reality of what's happened then there is little point anyone stating it to you again.

You seem to be fixated with the idea that they've done nothing wrong because they don't actually have any Ferrari technology on their cars. If only life was really that simple.

 

[mho]

This thread is boring !!!

 

[Moadib]

Anyway, the fact is that Alonso is:
1) a cry-baby (always blaming the team and accusing the team of not supporting him, even at the end of Renault days last season),

I haven't seen him complaining that other people are <gasp> racing him. So I guess they must be a teamfull of cry babies

2) a cheater (sitting on the pitstop blocking Hamilton),

Frankly I'd have done the same. Hamilton tried to steal the fuel burn advantage that he had agreed with the team was Alonso's. Alonso then had to listen to Hamilton tell the team "I want the advantage, he can go *** himself". Over a decade in sports and still not a sportsman - he needed the lesson, and still hasn't learned it.

and
3) a blackmailer (for threatening Ron Dennis with going to the FIA with the emails)

That's pure speculation, not even commented far less confirmed by anyone involved. I suspect Alonso was trying to be let out of his contract, and Dennis was trying to say that he maybe wouldn't drive for McLaren, but also would drive for no-one else - then Alonso would be forced to bring pressure to bear that he would probably rather not. Why Alonso would just threaten for an advantage sounds like someone trying to make Alonso look bad and Hamilton good (the UK media, surprisingly the ones who mentioned it!). McLaren have never had No.1s, and Alonso wouldn't expect them to start now, especially a British team, with a British driver leading the championship - he's many things, but he's far from stupid.

 

[nilagin]

3) a blackmailer (for threatening Ron Dennis with going to the FIA with the emails)

That's pure speculation, not even commented far less confirmed by anyone involved. I suspect Alonso was trying to be let out of his contract, and Dennis was trying to say that he maybe wouldn't drive for McLaren, but also would drive for no-one else - then Alonso would be forced to bring pressure to bear that he would probably rather not. Why Alonso would just threaten for an advantage sounds like someone trying to make Alonso look bad and Hamilton good (the UK media, surprisingly the ones who mentioned it!). McLaren have never had No.1s, and Alonso wouldn't expect them to start now, especially a British team, with a British driver leading the championship - he's many things, but he's far from stupid.

On the ITV coverage of the Belgium GP Max Mosely stated he'd received a telephone call after the Hungarian GP from Ron Dennis stating that Alonso had threatened to inform the FIA about more evidence on the Ferrari documents.(i.e the emails)

 

[Moadib]

On the ITV coverage of the Belgium GP Max Mosely stated he'd received a telephone call after the Hungarian GP from Ron Dennis stating that Alonso had threatened to inform the FIA about more evidence on the Ferrari documents.(i.e the emails)

From the formal FIA hearing transcript...

"Referring to a conversation on the Sunday morning at the Hungarian GP, Dennis said that Alonso was "extremely upset with what had taken place the previous day, but nowhere nearly as upset as I was. He said things that he subsequently and fully retracted. Within the passage of material, he made a specific reference to e-mails from a McLaren engineer. When he made this statement, I said, “Stop”. I went out, brought Mr Whitmarsh him in, and Fernando said everything again, in front of his manager. When he had finished, I turned to Martin Whitmarsh, asking what we should do with this particular part of the conversation. Martin said we should find Max. After Martin and Fernando left, that is exactly what he did. I recounted the entire conversation to Max. I was upset and angry, but mainly upset. Max calmed me down. He said that I should do nothing. I started to calm down. Then, prior to the race, Fernando’s manager came and said that he had lost his temper and completely retracted everything he said. When I phoned Max, Max was understanding and said things to me that are irrelevant here, though I would be more than comfortable sharing them. He was completely understanding and said that, on the basis of what I told him, if he felt there was any real validity in what Fernando had said, he would contact me prior to taking any action."

Dennis went on to say that after the race Alonso "apologised for the outburst and I put it down to the heat of the moment, in which he was angry. That is how I took it. Other than following up with Martin, the matter ended there, until 26 days later, when the drivers received a letter. What took place between those times, I do not know. I do not know what circumstances brought that into the public domain."

=====

So Alonso made these "threats" in front of Ron Dennis, his own manager, and Martin Whitmarsh, McLaren CEO. He was also present when it was agreed to phone the FIA and tell them about the information, and he left happy in this knowledge. He later apologised to Ron Dennis for his outburst.

Those Spanish clearly have a strange idea of blackmail...

 

[antihero]

This thread is boring !!!

oh no it isn't

 

[richmond]

It certainly isn't boring mho.

I can't see there ever being a conclusion. The rift in the two camps is so wide I think they'll have to agree to disagree eventually.

 

[Moadib]

oh no it isn't

Just to add further spice and intrigue...

Alonso to Ferrari...?
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19670.html

Never mind who deserves what, that would be just about the ideal set up for viewing fun next year.

Wonder who would get the other McLaren seat - Jenson?

 

[nilagin]

Note the
I don't really want a translation as I can read what you said(although TBH I choose not to now as it's just repetition) and no matter how many times you repeat it it still makes no sense.

I think chuckles pointed out the fundamental flaw in your argument and that still stands.
If you can't accept the reality of what's happened then there is little point anyone stating it to you again.

You seem to be fixated with the idea that they've done nothing wrong because they don't actually have any Ferrari technology on their cars. If only life was really that simple.

It seems that Jackie Stewart agrees with me anyway.
http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40771

 

[Ratty]

So .

 

[mrgubby]

So .

Gets my vote for the the most carefuly thought out non-verbose response . Ever

 

[h.r.ford]

I think this should made the last couple of races interesting between Alonso and Hamilton. The only thing that kept them from going into all out war was constructor points. Now the gloves can be off.... It'll be fun to see what happens.

I think if what I've read is true then McLaren got what they deserve and Ferrari isn't really gaining anything out of this. And I'm not a big Ferrari fan and I can't stand Kimi although I like Masa.

 

[whitewash]

i just find the entire case against Mclaren to be full of "we believe this" and "we think that" theres one part where delarosa is supposed to have spoken to someone at bridgestone about the posibility of running a different gas in the tyres, aparently he did this himself without the teams knowledge, acording to autosport this was a statement that the WMSC "found hard to believe"... that a driver can talk to a tyre engineer, very hard to beleivable....

the whole thing smacks of a kangaroo court, in a real caught you have to prove someone guilty and not "i think they might possibly be"


mosley has done a lot to wreck the sport of formula 1 (stupid regulations etc) but this has to be his peice de resistance! Hes managed to muddy what could have been a thrilling end to the season (not sure if ill bother watching the rest of the season) and as usual the decisions he and his team make ultimately benefit ferrari (here have the championship on a plate and hey if we "think" next years mclaren has anything vaguely ferrarish about it (maybe a touch of scarlet paint somewhere) then you can have next years as well).


but hey the deal is done, no appeal from mclaren so theres nothing that can be done, mclaren will still be one of the 2 top teams next year and its unfortunate that the actions of probably less than 10 of its employees have sullied the team in such a way,


im off to watch WRC far more exciting this year (for once!)

 

[whitewash]

Wonder who would get the other McLaren seat - Jenson?

if i was an f1 manager i wouldnt give jenson button a toilet seat let alone a seat in one of my cars!

he just simply is not world champion material

 

[RobbieW]

The papers today were suggesting that Massa has been talking to Toyota I assume thats Ralfs seat, Alonso may go to Ferrari if Ferrari buy him out of the contract and Rosberg or Button will be at McLaren.

Typical rumours, but I expect a decision will be announced within the next 2-3 weeks.

 

[h.r.ford]

I'd love to see Rosberg at McLaren. I've really enjoyed watching him race since he caught my eye in his very first race last year by gaining something like 6 or 8 places. It would be great to have such a young team at McLaren they could really be there a while.

 

[RobbieW]

I'd love to see Rosberg at McLaren. I've really enjoyed watching him race since he caught my eye in his very first race last year by gaining something like 6 or 8 places. It would be great to have such a young team at McLaren they could really be there a while.

I totally agree with that. At a risk of upsetting alot of people here I wouldn't want to see Button at McLaren, I don't feel he has achieved much since he started. Whats more important is if a better drive comes along is he going to buy himself out of the contract like he did with BAR and Williams?

 

[whitewash]

yep, rosberg and kovaleinen are both stars of the future, both of them in capable cars would be good racing


i just hope that if rosberg stays with williams next year that they produce a really good car!