McLaren

[Grendel]

 

[RobbieW]

Disgusted with who ?

With Alonso and De La Rosa, that is not the type of behavior I expect from a 2 time world champion. If Ron isn't guilty as he has always maintained then I hope he sacks them both.

 

[Grendel]

Just seen on the Autosport website, it looks like it was Ron Dennis himself who tipped off the FIA about the evidence that cost him this year's constructor's championship

have a read

 

[Moadib]

I think the people insinuating that Ferrari have done something wrong need to read the facts, that is ;

What happened
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19653.html

Who informed the FIA
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19649.html

Frankly speaking McLaren are lucky the drivers are still allowed to keep points and win, given the antics of the team. Ron may not have known, and Hamilton MAY not have known, but an advantage was clearly gained.

Frankly I think the FIA have handled this very well, providing proper punishment and deterrent while trying to be sensitive to the sport, the fans, and to Hamilton who may not have been involved.

Personally I think Hamilton has been far from an ambassador for the sport with his antics and outbursts, however given the above I think Alonso may be the least deserving world champion ever (surpassed perhaps by Schumacher's 1994!). Ferrari are tied up in this too. Maybe Heidfeld for world champ?! Ban the four of them and let Heidfeld and Kubica fight it out!

 

[RobbieW]

Personally I think Hamilton has been far from an ambassador for the sport with his antics and outbursts,

What do you mean by that? not trying to have a pop just don't understand what you mean by it

 

[Ratty]

Ferrari are tied up in this too. Ban the four of them

 

[Grendel]

Personally I think Hamilton has been far from an ambassador for the sport with his antics and outbursts

What antics and outbursts? Please clarify :shrug:

 

[nilagin]

The way I have read the FIA statement is McLaren have been fined for receiving the info, albeit one emplyee who passed the info on to a few McLaren personel. In the same light the info was supplied by Ferrari, disgruntled or not but still a Ferrari employee. so Ferrari are just as gulity for allowing the info out in the first place. McLaren have not been proved to have made any gain from the info. I can't see how they can be held accountable for what some of their employees have done and not Ferrari.

 

[Grendel]

I can't see how they can be held accountable for what some of their employees have done and not Ferrari.

That's a good point

 

[richmond]

Personally I think Hamilton has been far from an ambassador for the sport with his antics and outbursts, !

I think you need to expand on that statement. As far as I can see LH is a great ambassador for F1.

Alonso and De La Rosa on the other hand :thumbsdown:

 

[Ratty]

CBA to quote but some comments above are ridiculous.
Tanatamount to the usual nonsense that no-one can be at fault unless it is Ferrari or Ferrari can be implicated.
Get real FFS.
You're making me appear to be a Ferrari cohort and I'm simply takign the middle ground.

so a corrupt employee takes info from your company and gives it to a competitor.
The competitor benefits from this at your expense.
You expect your company to then be penalised in the same way as those guilty of the crime. Even though you are the victim.

I really would not want to live in a society that you had any control over. absolutely ridiculous.

I could use many other analogies to portray just how stupid that scenario is but I'm hopign that's not needed as it is pretty damn obvious.

Ooh, my neighbours just had his car stolen, he's sharing the same cell as the car-thief, after all it was just as much his fault for allowing his car to be stolen.

McLaren have not been proved to have made any gain from the info.

Did you not read the report?
How can you not understand the reality here?

 

[mrgubby]

Employee of Company A gives information to an Employee of Company B

Employee of Company B appears to pass info to other Employees of Company B

Company B is not shown to have benefited from this information (Product was developed at least 6 months before & has already been proven as succesfull before any info received)

Company B is fined 20% of year turnover & loses championship / reputation

Company A is left sniggering with hands on Championship

====================================================

I'm not in anyway saying that McLaren have been stitched up (some of their employees need sacking for gross misconduct) but the winners of the debacle are Ferrari & the FIA.

Ps . I don't watch F1 , I enjoy Motorsport so watch Motorcycle racing

 

[Ratty]

The scenario above isn't one I hadn't considered already but I thought we were dealig nin the absolute facts here rather than the speculation.
If we go on speculation it can take on whatever direction anyone chooses.

I'm a bike man myself BTW but I do ocasionally need a kip on a Sunday afternoon so the F1 comes in quite handy.

 

[Moadib]

Come on Ratty - you pull up others for any seeming imprecision in response, yet to me you quote everything except the smiley I put, cutting that out of the middle of what you quoted!

It was a joke.

 

[Moadib]

I'm not in anyway saying that McLaren have been stitched up (some of their employees need sacking for gross misconduct) but the winners of the debacle are Ferrari & the FIA.

Hmmm, that's quite a leap of logic I think.

Ferrari will "win" a tainted constructors championship that they were going to be second in anyway - they'll get a bit more money (and McLaren correspondingly less) but neither were short of that anyway. They will lose the driver's championship, the FIA will garner plenty of negative press. Ferrari will lose some of the key facets of their car (braking systems and tyre management have been strengths for them).

Other than a constructor's cup that no-one will care about, I don't see either Ferrari or the FIA coming out ahead here. The one big positive, which applies to McLaren also, is that this problem has been stopped and has set an example. This goes on a lot, but there are and must be limits, which were crossed in this case.

In recent times I've been no Ferrari fan, but I hope I can view the issue sufficiently neutrally to give them a fair hearing. I really don't see why Ferrari should have to lose their technology to espionage without recourse to the governing body. Frankly I think McLaren got off lightly - why the team can be said to have acted against the interests of the sport yet the drivers have gained no advantage is bizarre. It keeps the championship going, but if Alonso wins he may well the least deserving Champion even (Schumacher in 1994 and Prost/Senna in 1989/1990 might run him close though, so he's in illustrious company!)

On a more abstract note, what has surprised me is that throughout this Ron Dennis has been insistent that McLaren have done absolutely nothing wrong - yet here are the most recent findings. Indeed it seems Ron himself had to go to the FIA to avoid the possibility that Alonso would. Some questions to be asked there about the ethics of the team, yet that was the one thing that Ron seemed utterly assured of. It's a shame, as I've always seen Ron as one of the origins and pillars of the sport, and it's a shame to see him let down by some elements of the team.

 

[Moadib]

I think you need to expand on that statement. As far as I can see LH is a great ambassador for F1.

Alonso and De La Rosa on the other hand :thumbsdown:

Can't disagree with Alonso and DLR - they do not come out of this looking good (although I can't say "bad" as I expect it's not as uncommon an occurrence as we may like to think!)

For Hamilton, in this issue he has (so far...?) come out of this incident without tarnish, but that wasn't what I was referring to. The comment of incidents and outbursts relates to other trends this season.

For example disobeying the team to jump in front of Alonso in Hungary, refusing to let Alonso past to rectify this, and then arguing with the team over the radio. The particular language used has been debated, but not the fact that he refused to do what was told (and what he had doubtless agreed with during the previous days and hours of team meetings and strategising).

Doubtless it will be argued "that's what winners do" and other such excuses, but it's a shoddy way to treat your teammate, and the team that's supported your career.

Following that is the allegation that the whole Hungary debacle would have been an issue within McLaren, but that it was Hamilton that reported Alonso to the stewards, resulting in the penalty and loss of the constructor points. I've seen several reports of this but no confirmations, but it ties with Alonso's comments in the Spanish media that he'd never seen anything like it (the Hungary antics) in his entire time in F1.

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=62545

Throughout this Hamilton has painted this image of innocence in the media which I find rather disappointing. Even only the jumping in front of Alonso for qualifying was extremely shoddy, especially given how important qualifying is at that track, it virtually takes four points from your teammate (the 2 you gain plus the 2 he loses).

Hamilton is an enormously talented driver, and a breath of fresh air for the sport - but in my opinion he really needs to find some balance in his behavior both on-track and off. As a Brit I find it bizarre that we have a talented up and coming British driver, yet I find myself rooting for Alonso and Kimi - Lewis is THAT unlikeable that I want to support him and can't! :shrug:

 

[mrgubby]

Hmmm, that's quite a leap of logic I think.

Ferrari will "win" a tainted constructors championship that they were going to be second in anyway
*snip*.

I was refering to a Ferrari "win" based on the idea that they don't get on with McLaren and it's human nature to feel like you've won when your rival has had a kicking .

Ps. I think I read somewhere that the fine is bigger than some of the small teams year budget , what kind of 'sport' allows that sort of imbalance :shrug:. That's like Liverpool playing in the Conference leagues :nono:

 

[Ratty]

Come on Ratty - you pull up others for any seeming imprecision in response,

I'm not pulling anyone up about that at all. Simply commenting that there is a lot of strange bias affecting how people see things.

Although I am about to do it now...

yet to me you quote everything except the smiley I put, cutting that out of the middle of what you quoted!

No. I missed two whole sentences which had a smilie amongst them, not just a smiley.

Maybe Heidfeld for world champ?! Ban the four of them and let Heidfeld and Kubica fight it out!

That would indicate you liked Hiedfeld or liked the idea that he could win. It doesn't indicate that the whole post was a joke. When there are so many people in this thread who see the (Ferrari)Red mist one :smile: amongst all those words doesn't make it funny

It was a joke.

Oh right.. OK.

Maybe I'll read your other comments with this in mind.

 

[Ratty]

Moadib.
I totally agree with your last post
Well apart from the LH bit as I have no bais to like/dislike him so far.
Alf Gonzo on the other hand.

That's like Liverpool playing in the Conference leagues

Suppose it'd give them a chance of winning something.

 

[nilagin]

Quote:
McLaren have not been proved to have made any gain from the info.


Did you not read the report?
How can you not understand the reality here?

I've read the report and although personel at McLaren may have tested or tried stuff none of it has been proved to have been used in racing. As such McLaren did not gain from anything other than the pit stop information. McLaren have not stolen this information, one of their employees, Coughlan was given the information. There has been no implication that the information even had to be paid for or that Coughlan had requested the information in the first place. There will be photos taken every day on a race weekend and teams will act in some way on that info. How many times have you seen drivers taking a peak at anothers car in Parc Ferme after a race. All this is spying to a degree and all teams will do it.
If McLaren could be proved to be using the Ferrari technology and benefiting by it to beat Ferrari then maybe the punishement would be fitting, but no proof has been found so far.
So if McLaren can be found guilty for one of its employees recieving the info and acting on it without the teams knowledge then Ferrari must be just as guilty for one of its employees supplying it, without their knowledge.

 

[chuckles]

If McLaren could be proved to be using the Ferrari technology and benefiting by it to beat Ferrari then maybe the punishement would be fitting, but no proof has been found so far.

Surely, being in receipt and possession of information to which you're not entitled is an ill-gotten gain!

If McLaren tested the 'stuff' and did not use it, it can be deemed a benefit.... Why didn't they use it? Maybe that data put them several months in front of where they were and decided it wasn't for them..... If that's the case then, in my book, that's a benefit. And one to which McLaren were not entitled. Crime! :rules:

 

[Ratty]

nilagin, chuckles has said it more diplomatically than I may have done.
If you really think that having info stolen from your competitors about their technical matters is not giving you any benefits then you are naive beyond my comprehension.

 

[RobbieW]

For example disobeying the team to jump in front of Alonso in Hungary, refusing to let Alonso past to rectify this, and then arguing with the team over the radio. The particular language used has been debated, but not the fact that he refused to do what was told (and what he had doubtless agreed with during the previous days and hours of team meetings and strategising).

If you believe everything the media tells you then you will never get the full facts. The were problems in Hingary, but Hamilton and the McLaren pit guys said in an interview afetrwards at no time did Hamilton swear at the team. Think what you want, but I would rather believe an intreview rather than the daily cr@p that the sun prints

Do we know what the strategy was? who says he disobeyed it? oh yes the sun and the rest of the media - why? cause it sold a story so that people can listen to it.

If you bothered to watch the post race interview at Monxa last week, Hamilton was saying the points were for the team, and the team did a good job etc etc, where as Alonso was all I did a good job, and this will help my drivers championship. Hamilton has done alot for F1 in this country over the past year, its just a shame the actiosn of a few have turned so many people against it now!

 

[nilagin]

Surely, being in receipt and possession of information to which you're not entitled is an ill-gotten gain!

If McLaren tested the 'stuff' and did not use it, it can be deemed a benefit.... Why didn't they use it? Maybe that data put them several months in front of where they were and decided it wasn't for them..... If that's the case then, in my book, that's a benefit. And one to which McLaren were not entitled. Crime! :rules:

nilagin, chuckles has said it more diplomatically than I may have done.
If you really think that having info stolen from your competitors about their technical matters is not giving you any benefits then you are naive beyond my comprehension.

The first FIA hearing from which McLaren lost points deemed that although the documents were in the possession of a McLaren team member, there was no evidence of any benefit gained. If proof of benefit could be found then a new hearing would be held.
In the recent hearing, it came out that in email evidence from Alonso and De La Rosa, things were tried or looked at but nothing was felt suitable for use on the McLaren car. Still no evidence of Ferrari technology has been found on the McLaren cars so still no benefit has been gained.
Listening to Max Mosely being interviewed on todays F1 on ITV, the punishment has been delt out on supposition not fact.
The McLaren team has been held accountable for the actions of a few individuals acting without the teams consent. That is what I find so unfair.
Hence my statement (Farcical I Know) that Ferrari should be accountable for the actions of it's employee and having such lax security to let the material be stolen from its factory in the first place.
The World Council has more Ferrari representatives than from any other team and Ferrari stand to gain more out of the penalty than anyone else. A decision should surely have been made by an impartial group who stand to gain nothing by it. If that is not a farce and unfair I don't know what is.
The only good thing is the money will be shared out between the other teams (Ferrari will gain from that as well sadly) and to help up and coming drivers into motorsport.

 

[chuckles]

---clip---
In the recent hearing, it came out that in email evidence from Alonso and De La Rosa, things were tried or looked at but nothing was felt suitable for use on the McLaren car.

---snip---

Hence, I stand by my original statement.....

You don't need to fit something on the car to derive a benefit from it. The use of the information is a benefit, or could be deemed as such.

The mere fact they were tried or looked at is a benefit in itself. The way I see it - if the natural development within the McLaren's evolution was going the way the Ferrari stuff ended up then deciding NOT to use it because it wasn't suitable for the McLaren has just GOT to be a benefit..... sorry, I don't see it any other way.

I think you're beating that McLaren - anti-Ferrari drum too hard! :nono:

 

[Moadib]

If you believe everything the media tells you then you will never get the full facts. The were problems in Hingary, but Hamilton and the McLaren pit guys said in an interview afetrwards at no time did Hamilton swear at the team. Think what you want, but I would rather believe an intreview rather than the daily cr@p that the sun prints

Do we know what the strategy was? who says he disobeyed it? oh yes the sun and the rest of the media - why? cause it sold a story so that people can listen to it.

If you bothered to watch the post race interview at Monxa last week, Hamilton was saying the points were for the team, and the team did a good job etc etc, where as Alonso was all I did a good job, and this will help my drivers championship. Hamilton has done alot for F1 in this country over the past year, its just a shame the actiosn of a few have turned so many people against it now!

You don't know me, but I assure you I am the LAST person you could accuse of believing what the media tell me - if you read my post again you will see the qualifications I carefully included.

At the same time, if you believe what Hamilton is saying to that same media, about his rival Alonso, I think the facts are at least equally unlikely to appear!

Only the people inside the team know about the language, but it is undisputed that the whole thing kicked off because Hamilton stole the advantage agreed at that track for ALonso, then refused to correct the problem. That seems to be now overlooked by the UK media, who have Hamilton-tinted glasses on. He's a great driver (today and Monza excepted), but everything in perspective.

 

[Ratty]

This may seem a little blunt nilagin but you're talkign nonsense.

I think you're beating that McLaren - anti-Ferrari drum too hard! :nono:

It must need re-skinning by now



And I really hate to say this as my thoughts on Alf Gonzo aren't the best but he pulled the move of the race at the start.

 

[RobbieW]

After this week I couldn't be bothered to watch todays grand prix, but I see see glimpses of it and I must now say what a dull end to the season this is looking like. The only overtaking was from Sutil, no one at the front did anything to inspire me. The whole F1 scence needs a big wake up call for the sake of the fans.

When they started saying about the new work in Spa, it was new pit lane, new garages new media centre and a replacement stand. Is that all they can manage for the fans, knock down an exisiting grandstand and replace it with a new one! even itv said it was boring!!!

some of you may think I am just an arm chair fan who sits on my wotsit and what do I know, fair point but over the past few years I have travelled to places like Italy, Germany, and Malaysia purely to see the grand prix, now I am tempted to join the touring car group. The Grand Prix live event at donnington earlier in the year was supposed to bring F1 closer to the fans, well ok I met Mario and I saw a red bull go round the track - is that it!

Thats my grumble over and done with, and I know alot of you won't agree, but think of it this way a grand prix ticket is about £200+ for 90 mins, don't you want wheel to wheel and something decent happening for your money?

 

[nilagin]

Hence, I stand by my original statement.....

You don't need to fit something on the car to derive a benefit from it. The use of the information is a benefit, or could be deemed as such.

The mere fact they were tried or looked at is a benefit in itself. The way I see it - if the natural development within the McLaren's evolution was going the way the Ferrari stuff ended up then deciding NOT to use it because it wasn't suitable for the McLaren has just GOT to be a benefit..... sorry, I don't see it any other way.

I think you're beating that McLaren - anti-Ferrari drum too hard! :nono:

The only thing that McLaren could have used was the braking system as it was admitted in the emails that McLaren were already working on something similar. No proof that anything in the McLaren braking system was taken from the Ferrari information Everything else was unsuitable as the cars are different and the tyre gas was not tried at the opinon of a Bridgestone engineer. So if you don't use something how can it be of benefit.
Remember McLaren had already been 'let off', by the FIA, once already as not having gained an advantage by having the info in their possession. So deciding not to act on the info as no proof was made that they have acted on the info, nothing has changed in the original decision by the FIA and World Council.
As I said before it is all based on supposition (Max Mosely's own words) and not beleiving De La Rosa that it was decided not to act upon the info. They have no concrete evidence.

 

[Ratty]

When they started saying about the new work in Spa, it was new pit lane, new garages new media centre and a replacement stand. Is that all they can manage for the fans, knock down an exisiting grandstand and replace it with a new one! even itv said it was boring!!!

That has absolutely nothing to do with the sport or the fans.
It's a commercial thing.:thumbsdown:

Over the years they are ruining a lot of circuits, Spa being done over more than most.

 

[Ratty]

Quoted to edit typos and maybe for relevance.

This may seem a little blunt nilagin but you're talking nonsense.

 

[nilagin]

Quoted to edit typos and maybe for relevance.

No it's called logic. Read the facts for yourself.

 

[Ratty]

McLaren could have used you as their defence lawyer, you're certainly putting up more of a fight than theirs did . Albeit the argument is totally flawed and would have got them no better a result.


What you are using is certainly not logic. I know women who use better logic (runs for cover )

 

[nilagin]

No evidence was found to discredit De La Rosa's statement about not testing the information. The World Council/FIA just said they did not believe a test driver would be calling the shots on what to test or not.
No evidence has been found in any McLaren car or factory pertaining to the Ferrari info or technology.
Max Mosely on prime time TV says the World Council wanted McLaren to be banned for 2008 but he felt it wouldn't be right on something that could not be proved. (i.e Supposition)
There fore McLaren are no more guilty than they were deemed to be before.
The only guilty parties (proved by way of email evidence) are Alonso, De La Rosa and Coughlan and two of those were given amnesty for giving evidence. Evidence which would only incriminated themselves not the team as a whole.
The Jury (World Motor Sports Council) consists of people who would benefit by the desicion to ban McLaren and and fine them.
Please feel free to point out the flaws in these facts.

 

[russdaz]

To answer a few a questions asked her.

Yes the engines are built at Illmor however, Illmor was brought by daimler chrysler and is now infact called Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines Ltd.

The other incidents mentioned regarding i.e barge boards, there is a rather large number of incidents though out the paddock, including Willaim's McLearn and a Renault where parts of the car where considered Legal at one one point then banned mid point thought the season. Last year Mclearn where told along with Ferrari that they needed to stiffen there rear wings, and Renualt developed the mass damper whcih got banned just after a few teams developed there own.

The pulling the plug on Rubins to let Schumacher win at the time broke upsolutely no rule, how can some thing be illegal if its noe defined as being banned??

 

[Ratty]

Well the simple fact that they are not facts is a start I guess.

 

[chuckles]

. No proof that anything in the McLaren braking system was taken from the Ferrari information Everything else was unsuitable as the cars are different and the tyre gas was not tried at the opinon of a Bridgestone engineer. So if you don't use something how can it be of benefit.

I think you're missing a quite a fundamental part of logic here.....

"Everything else was unsuitable"..... has to be based upon the premise that it was considered.... you can only consider (in these circumstances) if you have that information.

The benefit comes from not having to waste time going down that path of development and expense. It's kind of like having the benefit of hindsight.... somebody else's but in the future! They've (Ferrari in this instance) invested in time and money that McLaren don't have to..... you can use that saved time, effort and expense in doing something else. That "doing something else" has been gained through the effort of espionage or the handling, stealing, whatever you want to call it of some other body's efforts and expense. How that came about is immaterial, the inescapable fact is that it happened.

It really don't know how you can say McLaren tried something and because they didn't actually employ that piece of technology, was not a benefit to them escapes me :shrug: The mere fact that they tested is enough of a proof of fact for me!

Guilty as charged!

 

[spannerdude]

Who let the SHG in? (Schumi Hate Group):shake:
Those comments are typical of what I was implying. Very few actual facts that form, a very strong opinion.
Most of those comments could equally be directed at many other drivers over the years.
I worked wit ha motorsport chap who vehemently hated Ferrari and Schumi(we had a swearbox in case we used the word) yet every week he had to concede the point that he was by far the best driver out there simply because as a driver & m/sprt man he knew the actualities rather than the opinions

LOL. I didn't actually express an opinion on Schumacher, maybe you just assumed I hate him because so many people do.

I was actively involved in motorsport for many years. I have done more than my fair share of design and preparation, not to mention laying on my back in 8" of mud and snow, in some godforsaken windswept service area. I've lined up at stage starts knowing the guy who is 1 minute behind me is a national champion. Felt the pressures of knowing we were outclassed or outgunned and recognised our strengths where they existed. So I'm probably not as clueless as you'd like to think.

I've always found it amusing that when the formula for success in motorsport is such an immensely complex equation, people (and often people who should know better) are so ready to identify one solitary component as being the "key" to success. It's understandable I suppose because one component can easily be the key to failure. The average person is simply overwhelmed by the complexity and resorts to jumping to conclusions.
It is simply not realistic to imagine that a single component can be so key to success, not even when that component is the nut that holds the steering wheel.

Ferraris consistent success has been a result of producing superbly engineered cars and outstanding tactics which have allowed their drivers to use the cars superior performance where the conditions favour it, to engineer race wins through pit stops without having to incur the inherent risks of challenging anyone for position. Brilliant but boring. No wonder people have become disillusioned with F1 and think it has become a parade.

 

[spannerdude]

.....
The benefit comes from not having to waste time going down that path of development and expense. It's kind of like having the benefit of hindsight.... somebody else's but in the future! They've (Ferrari in this instance) invested in time and money that McLaren don't have to..... you can use that saved time, effort and expense in doing something else. That "doing something else" has been gained through the effort of espionage or the handling, stealing, whatever you want to call it of some other body's efforts and expense. How that came about is immaterial, the inescapable fact is that it happened.
.....

I agree entirely. And if the FIA had produced any evidence that the information had been passed from Coughlan to McLaren engineers I'd agree that McLaren were guilty as charged. As it is the evidence just points to Coughlan, de la Rosa and Alonso enjoying the ill gotten gains. So why has the FIA punished the whistle blower and expressly forbidden McLaren from punishing at least one of the culprits?

 

[RobbieW]

So why has the FIA punished the whistle blower and expressly forbidden McLaren from punishing at least one of the culprits?

They haven't have they?

when the FIA wrote to the drivers they said tell all you know and you won'g get in trouble with the FIA. There is nothing to stop ROn sacking his drivers