MF camera with AE and idiot proof....

srichards

srichards

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Suz
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I'm dabbling with the idea of 120 roll film camera. I quite fancy square format or something that can do 6x6 and 6 x 4.5 or even 6 x 8 or panoramic.

I definitely want something with decent auto exposure. I'm not so bothered about auto focus but I definitely think AE that works the majority of the time is essential.

Bronica sqa seems something like what I'm after.

Any others? Needs to be cheap too.

Also has anyone had the high res scans from AG with 120?

If you have one that can do various formats can you switch during a roll and does it upset the scanning systems if you do?

I'm sure I've asked this before but I can't find the thread or remember the answer... Memory of a goldfish :)
 
srichards said:
I'm dabbling with the idea of 120 roll film camera. I quite fancy square format or something that can do 6x6 and 6 x 4.5 or even 6 x 8 or panoramic.

I definitely want something with decent auto exposure. I'm not so bothered about auto focus but I definitely think AE that works the majority of the time is essential.

Bronica sqa seems something like what I'm after.

Any others? Needs to be cheap too.

Also has anyone had the high res scans from AG with 120?

If you have one that can do various formats can you switch during a roll and does it upset the scanning systems if you do?

I'm sure I've asked this before but I can't find the thread or remember the answer... Memory of a goldfish :)
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My very strong personal recommendation is to not go for auto-exposure in medium format unless you are prepared for the increased costs and weight. It is far more economical and practical to pick up a meterless medium format camera along with a handheld light meter than it is to restrict yourself to a system with auto-exposure finders.

The SQ-A is great and the lenses are top notch, but I rarely use it with a prism, preferring instead to pair it with the brighter, lighter, and more compact waist level finder that offers 3x magnification with the flip-up magnifier. When you use the SQ-A with the prism, it virtually doubles in size, because you'll find you'll want to use the speed grip to balance the weight of the prism and improve the camera's handling. The prism only offers .80x magnification.
 
Get a TLR and a lightmeter and stop being lazy......:D
 
AE is a definite. If it was manual focus and manual exposure it would stay in the cupboard or become a door stop ;)

Are the range finder bodies lacking in auto exposure options?
 
srichards said:
AE is a definite. If it was manual focus and manual exposure it would stay in the cupboard or become a door stop ;)

Are the range finder bodies lacking in auto exposure options?
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What do you consider cheap? What type of film are you planning to shoot and what sorts of subjects?

I personally don't think that medium format is the place to be for auto-exposure (auto-anything for that matter), especially if you're being budget conscious, although others may disagree.
 
srichards said:
AE is a definite. If it was manual focus and manual exposure it would stay in the cupboard or become a door stop.
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This puzzles me - I wish you'd explain your thinking to enlighten us. It almost seems as if you want medium format to take snapshots! What's the rationale?
 
Mamiya 645 was another possibility and ffordes have one with an AE prism for about £330.

Also wondered about fuji gs645s range finder but I'd assume that was manual exposure.

I'd probably use it for still life and landscapes. It's basically just a higher res friend for my dynax.
 
droj said:
This puzzles me - I wish you'd explain your thinking to enlighten us. It almost seems as if you want medium format to take snapshots! What's the rationale?
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I don't like manual cameras. I find them annoying to use. This is why I like using the dynax as I can forget about faffing with exposure settings as it usually does what I expect so I can concentrate on other elements.
 
srichards said:
I don't like manual cameras. I find them annoying to use. This is why I like using the dynax as I can forget about faffing with exposure settings as it usually does what I expect so I can concentrate on other elements.
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Yeah, but the auto exposure systems on most medium format cameras were pretty basic to begin with, now they're also very old, likely outdated, and quite possibly unreliable. You'd be adding unnecessary cost, size, and complexity at the possible expense of image quality, although the latitude of negative film would probably see you through in most cases.

You're not going to get anything like your Dynax in medium format.
 
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skysh4rk said:
Yeah, but the auto exposure systems on most medium format cameras were pretty basic to begin with, now they're also very old, likely outdated, and quite possibly unreliable. You'd be adding unnecessary cost, size, and complexity at the possible expense of image quality.

You're not going to get anything like your Dynax in medium format.
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Well, the Fuji GA645Zi would be pretty close! I've used one of those for years and it's almost completely fool-proof with accurate AE and AF and even a zoom lens :) And it even winds the film to the correct start point for you as well (if you use Fuji film)!
 
magicolor1 said:
Well, the Fuji GA645Zi would be pretty close! I've used one of those for years and it's almost completely fool-proof with accurate AE and AF and even a zoom lens :) And it even winds the film to the correct start point for you as well (if you use Fuji film)!
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I used to own a GA645 myself, but I had all sorts of problems with the electronics, so I have great trouble recommending any electronics-laden pseudo-rangefinders from Fuji. Even when the camera did work though, I never actually used the auto-exposure on it.
 
With the latitude of portra as clearly demonstrated by your good self inaccurate AE isn't going to be a massive issue :D

Pentax 645N etc looks possible.
 
srichards said:
With the latitude of portra as clearly demonstrated by your good self inaccurate AE isn't going to be a massive issue :D

Pentax 645N etc looks possible.
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Well, I shoot mostly backlit subjects and, even with the amazing latitude of Portra, I still wouldn't put my faith in any AE system in a medium format camera, as they're easily fooled in such conditions and prone to underexposure. I'd prefer to save size, weight, and cost and even just use sunny 16 to take advantage of the latitude of Portra, personally.

Anyhow, we all have different ways of working, so I hope that you're able to find what you're looking for. :)
 
Previous thread a bit along these lines.


Mamiya 645 1000s with an AE prism is a good option its exposure is entirely reasonable and you can do manual match needle metering with it easy enough.

I paid 110 for mine in one of MrCad's half price sales nice ones should be out there for 250 ish and most of the lenses can be had for 100-150 or less.

If you want interchangeable backs the later Pro TL is probably the best option of the later cameras

Some useful links

http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Mamiya_M645
http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/Mamiya_M645_Super,_Pro,_Pro_TL_and_E

When I get back I'll dig out some links to some drum scanned 645's from the 1000's

It's light enough to hand hold especially with a grip which is not really the case with most of the 6x6 or 6x7 system cameras.
 
Looks like the Pentax 645N is your most affordable option with proper AE modes, I've just looked on the dreaded auction site and there are some real bargains to be had. Do it Suz or go completely the other way and buy a Lomo Bel-Air, auto exposure but very very basic.
 
I've just changed from an M645J with WLF and PDs Prism (which meters using an over/under scale in the viewfinder when you change the shutter speed on a dial on the side) to a 645 Pro with AE Prism. The only practical difference in the metering is that the Pro prism controls the shutter speed automatically so theoretically won't let you shoot at the wrong exposure unless you dial in exposure compensation. On the other hand, the M645 prism is more of a guide and you still need to select the right shutter speed yourself.

I've never had any issues with exposure on the M645J/Prism but I also had no issues using the WLF and my iPhone as a light meter! That may be down to the latitude of film as much as iPhone metering :0)

I've also shot with a Fuji GA645 which is basically a point and shoot camera which delivers excellent results. I've posted several times about getting another Fuji but after using the Mamiya's more, I think I'd find it a little too 'boring' to shoot with as I see digital as my less involving kit and film as more of a challenge.

Cheers
Steve
 
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I keep going back to those fujis as well. There's just something about them.

The interchangeable backs and modular options for the mamiya make it a much more sensible choice as you can add and change it to suit. The fuji you're stuck with it as is, even though it is quite compact and idiot proof.
 
I think that's basically it! The fuji Ga645 offers pretty much full auto shooting and delivers really sharp results. However, the mamiya can deliver equally sharp results with not much more effort but allows you to change lenses which is the biggest plus point for me. I use the 80/2.8 for most portrait work then the 35/3.5 as a brilliant landscape and architecture lens.
 
Mamiya it is. I fear I may accidentally buy a fuji as well at some point though!
 
srichards said:
Mamiya it is. I fear I may accidentally buy a fuji as well at some point though!
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I don't think anyone's said it so far, but you ought to at least think about a Mamiya 6 if you're thinking of spending enough for a Mamiya 645 and a Fuji! Rangefinder, 6*6, interchangeable lenses of fantastic quality. And you can get the whole kit, all 3 lenses, and get change from £2K! Bargain :). (Another Chris did have one on offer in the classifieds here a while ago, don't know if he's sold it yet.)
 
ChrisR said:
I don't think anyone's said it so far, but you ought to at least think about a Mamiya 6 if you're thinking of spending enough for a Mamiya 645 and a Fuji! Rangefinder, 6*6, interchangeable lenses of fantastic quality. And you can get the whole kit, all 3 lenses, and get change from £2K! Bargain :). (Another Chris did have one on offer in the classifieds here a while ago, don't know if he's sold it yet.)
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If it were in the same price bracket as the Fuji rangefinders, I would definitely own a Mamiya 6 already!

Oh wait, I see what you've done, in the same price bracket as the Mamiya 645 and the Fuji rangefinder combined, you mean.

Then yes, I'd be going for the Mamiya 6 out of all the available options, provided you're okay with rangefinder focusing.

I'd still use it with a light meter though. ;)
 
Mamiya 6 looks interesting as well.

I'd probably start with the 645 super as that is a reasonable price and I can add to it. If lenses suitable for that fit on the mamiya 6 then even better. I suspect they won't as that would be too easy!
 
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srichards said:
Mamiya 6 looks interesting as well.

I'd probably start with the 645 super as that is a reasonable price and I can add to it. If lenses suitable for that fit on the mamiya 6 then even better.
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They can't share lenses. They have different shutter systems (i.e., focal plane shutter versus leaf shutters in the lenses) and the lenses of the 645 won't project an image large enough to cover the area of 6x6cm film.
 
skysh4rk said:
They can't share lenses. They have different shutter systems (i.e., focal plane shutter versus leaf shutters in the lenses) and the lenses of the 645 won't project an image large enough to cover the area of 6x6cm film.
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Rats!
 
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skysh4rk said:
Why do you prefer the focal plane shutter out of curiosity?
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Not sure what Suz meant, but my head's full of worries about changing leaf shutter lenses with a film in... probably shows I don't understand it! (Assuming that a focal plane shutter acts like a dark slide...) Then there's all that weird stuff about changing Hassy lenses before tensioing the shutter, or after, or something!
 
ChrisR said:
Not sure what Suz meant, but my head's full of worries about changing leaf shutter lenses with a film in... probably shows I don't understand it! (Assuming that a focal plane shutter acts like a dark slide...) Then there's all that weird stuff about changing Hassy lenses before tensioing the shutter, or after, or something!
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Well, there's still a mirror blocking the light path in the case of Bronica SQ-As, Hasselblads, and other SLR systems that use leaf shutters. I've never once had a problem with my SQ-A, SQ-B, or any of the lenses in this regard.

Rangefinders usually have built-in curtains or dark slides (some are triggered automatically, while other cameras require manually triggering) that allow you to change lenses mid-roll.

Focal plane shutters can be nice as they are often capable of much faster shutter speeds, but the speed gain in medium format is often quite limited, usually only one stop in most MF cameras (e.g., going from 1/500 to 1/1000), so I'd rather gain the four stops of flash sync you get with the most leaf shutters instead. Some of the Mamiya 645s still only go to 1/500, I think, even with the focal plane shutter.

It's only when you get to the newer medium format cameras like the Contax 645 that you start actually getting considerable speed gains (I think that's capable of 1/4000).
 
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Yes the Mamiya 6 and 7 rangefinder cameras have a manually operated blind that you put across the film plane before it will let you take the lens off.
 
There are several Leaf shuttered lenses in the Mamiya 645 system.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/abbandon/12984442634/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/abbandon/12984135833/sizes/l
https://www.flickr.com/photos/abbandon/12984438794/sizes/k/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/abbandon/8792343812/sizes/l

All drumscaned 645 no real attempt at colour correction on those and tiny depth of field on the last as it is the 80mm F1.9 wide open.

With the lenses you need to be careful to check that the grease from the Helicoids has not migrated to the apature blades.
 
Well I don't know about fool proof, but my ETRS + AEII prism + speedgrip is a fast bit of gear for semi auto...I normally take my own exposure readings for shots, but had to take some quick shots of my grandchildren playing with a wheelbarrow and they were moving from sun to shade (from over hanging trees) and on top of that the sun was going in and out behinds clouds. Well s*d that for working out exposure when in a hurry, so set the prism for auto exposure......well it's a bus ride 8 miles to snappy snaps to dev the two rolls of film for £7 and let's see how the ETRS coped, erm and see if Snappy snaps are any good.
 
skysh4rk said:
... the lenses of the 645 won't project an image large enough to cover the area of 6x6cm film.
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Erm, why not? Given that the lens covers 6x4.5cm and the image projected by the lens is circular, if it can cover 6cm in one dimension then it'd be able to cover 6cm in the other dimension because that's how circles work.
 
Strappy said:
Erm, why not? Given that the lens covers 6x4.5cm and the image projected by the lens is circular, if it can cover 6cm in one dimension then it'd be able to cover 6cm in the other dimension because that's how circles work.
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I thought that at first, but then realised that the minimum size of the image circle is defined by the length of the diagonal, not the side.

diameter = sqrt(side1*side1 + side2*side2)

I haven't got a square root on the nearest available calculator, but for 6*6 that works out at the square root of 72 (around 8.5?), while for 645 it's the square root of 56.25 (around 7.5?).

It does seem really stupid for some of these companies to have designed lenses so close to the minimum, although the pressure to make them smaller must be a factor. But many systems are hampered by a lack of available lenses; with greater cross-compatibility users could have a wider set of lenses to use for the same investment by the maker. The Mamiya 6 and 7 spring to mind as particularly egregious cases, given the small difference in image circle there.

Maybe there are other things like updating the electrical connections?
 
So in theory the lenses on the mamiya TLRs which are 6x6 would work on the 645s as they are larger than the area needed similar to how FF lenses work on crop cameras? Does the focal length alter? That's assuming there aren't any electronic gubbins in either or both having matching electronic gubbins?
 
In theory yes, but you'd look pretty stupid trying to mount a TLR lens set (dual lenses fixed one on top of the other) on a single-lens reflex camera! The mounts are totally different as well of course. Focal length is a fixed parameter of the lens so NEVER changes in any format, although of course the crop-factor affects the field-of-view the lens will project onto the film or digital sensor...
 
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