Micro 4/3rds...

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Luke
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I've honestly let this micro 4/3rds/rangefinders in general thing pass me by so far, opting to just keep my head buried in DSLR's. After looking around at peoples shots with them, looking at the kit involved and how compact and practical it seems, I'm awfully tempted to invest.

Would I honestly be able to match my 7D ISO performance, get fast prime lenses i.e 30mm f1.4/50mm f1.8 etc... And maintain brilliant image quality? I know little to nothing about 4/3rds/rangefinders/micro etc etc etc, hence my basic questions etc...

Could anyone spec me a high level 4/3rds/Rangefinder camera, with a good set of fast lenses? Thanks in advance.
 
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From my experience with micro 4/3's you would be hard pushed to see much difference at base ISO's between the 7D and a decent MFT setup. However at high ISO's the Canon will be MUCH better. AF on the 7D would likely be faster

I have a Panasonic GH2 which is the best MFT camera I have owned. The AF is VERY fast for its type and image quality is superb up to about ISO 800. ISO 1600 is very usable but won't match up to your Canon

Lenses from Panasonic and Olympus tend to be of very good quality although there isn't much in the way of fast primes other than the Panasonic 14mm and 20mm lenses (both of which are very nice)

The real benefit of MFT is the relatively compact size. Although the GH2 is one of the bigger cameras due to the EVF (which as an aside is very good) it is much smaller and lighter than the 7D. I can carry my camera around all day long with the 9-18 and 14-140 lenses in a small bag and am covered from 18-280mm in 35mm equivalent. The 9-18 lens is simply tiny and makes a superb landscape walkabout lens - to me it is more usable than the Panasonic 7-14 and a lot cheaper.

My ideal spec for MFT would be my GH2, Olympus 9-18, Panasonic 20mm pancake, Panasonic 14-140 (if you want a coverall lens) and the Panasonic 100-300. For a smaller outfit I'm very happy with my 9-18 and 14-140 combination - I'd still love to get another 20mm through :)

Hope this helps but if there is anything more specific you want answered let me know - I have also used the EP-1 and GF1 if you want some feedback on the rangefinder style bodies
 
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A good photographer will be able to create great shots using most anything.

I, on the other hand, had a GF1, with 20mm lens. Great combination, but alas, it did not compensate as well for my lack of skill as I am used to using a D700.

Upshot for me - I sold it and bought a Canon S95 for times I needed to carry something smaller.

Don't get me wrong, in the right hands, they can be really great products - but the hit rate was too low for my meager skills!
 
Thanks for that Dave, I appreciate the feedback. The size is what's drawing me to it, as a travel camera, rather than lugging my 7D plus 100-400, walkabout, primes etc... With me.
 
Skyline On Fire said:
Thanks for that Dave, I appreciate the feedback. The size is what's drawing me to it, as a travel camera, rather than lugging my 7D plus 100-400, walkabout, primes etc... With me.

Same here - I sold my 5D mkii and a whole bunch of lenses. I can't honesty say I don't sometimes hanker after the 5D mkii but I now take many more photos as the outfit goes everywhere with me.

The advantage of the gh2 is the evf which is the best of its kind and the af which is very quick. The multi aspect sensor is also great

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Im a micro four thirds man, Ive thought about getting a full slr from time to time, but I always ask myself, "will my pictures be any better with a big lump of Canon/Nikon"? the answer is always no, they wouldn't.
 
I went from a 5Dii to the G1. My photos have improved as I've been using the camera a lot more.
 
Going a bit off topic you might want to consider the Sony NEX 5 although lens choice at the moment is very limited

I got one these recently for £375 with the zoom kit lens (which is actually pretty good). The ergonomics are an acquired taste, I get on fine with it but others hate it.

The sensor is I think better than the mft sensor, especially at high iso and you can shoot at 1600 without any problem. Detail/resolution is superb, especially given the size of the camera.

I would NEVER recommend it as a replacement for your dslr but it is excellent as a very portable alternative

To be honest, if there was a better selection of lenses (and more are on their way) I would consider selling my mft gear and going for a full Sony kit

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I've seen that NEX 5, and I'm not doubting it's capabilities, but I could never get along with the ergonomics of that camera, it just wont work with me.

The GH2 has a great spec, but it's the rangefinder feel I'm after, which may sound like a silly reason to disregard an excellent camera, but buying the GH2 would just feel like I'm buying a smaller DSLR, I'm after something fresh and new to me.
 
I know how you feel!

Lately I've been tempted by the ep-1 on eBay for £260 because it would be great for my work but the 4/3rd sensor puts me off and the samsung nx I don't like in general and the nex 3/5 is great but lack of buttons :/
 
Size is really the only benefit I can see with micro 4/3rds system.

The focus is slow, iso is poor higher than 800 and the lack of viewfinder on most is annoying once you're used to an SLR.

If you're not using it in low light or fast paced situations, it would be good. On holiday for example.

Day to day, it's SLR for me.
 
Skyline On Fire said:
I've seen that NEX 5, and I'm not doubting it's capabilities, but I could never get along with the ergonomics of that camera, it just wont work with me.

The GH2 has a great spec, but it's the rangefinder feel I'm after, which may sound like a silly reason to disregard an excellent camera, but buying the GH2 would just feel like I'm buying a smaller DSLR, I'm after something fresh and new to me.

Absolutely understand both points - the NEX is very much a Marmite camera :)

The gh2 is very dslr like which is why I use it as my main outfit.

The ep1 can be bought used for a very good price these days and shoots fantastic jpegs

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After looking at micro 4/3 cameras for the past week or so, I've gotta say I'm absolutely blown away by the JPG performance of the Olympus E-PL1. It's very slightly better at handling noise than the E-P1 (in my opinion), and even at ISO 1600, the amount of noise (or lack of) is amazing. Obviously against your APS-C sensor and dual Digic-4 7D it's not as good, but at 1600 you still have VERY usable prints with the E-PL1.

You can directly compare the cameras at DPReview.

The thing about the E-PL1 though, is the ergonomics aren't that great, especially if you're used to a DSLR. Instead of using control wheels or dials, it's just a load of buttons, like a compact camera. They have just released the E-PL2, which thankfully adds those control wheels, but at £500, you may as well just get a DSLR IMO.
 
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Size is really the only benefit I can see with micro 4/3rds system.

The focus is slow, iso is poor higher than 800 and the lack of viewfinder on most is annoying once you're used to an SLR.

If you're not using it in low light or fast paced situations, it would be good. On holiday for example.

Day to day, it's SLR for me.

Reading posts like this I often wonder why my experience is so much different, particularly with focus as I find that my GF1+20mm f1.7 will focus as fast as I want it to and whilst it's true that there is no viewfinder integrated into the camera you can buy an electronic one or fit a fixed optical one which is fine if you use a prime. Even the complaint about high ISO performance fades when you view what people are achieving and posting on this site with these cameras.

They really do deserve a close look IMVHO particularly if looking for a modern digital replacement for the rangefinder or quality film compact that many of us owned years ago.
 
Reading posts like this I often wonder why my experience is so much different, particularly with focus as I find that my GF1+20mm f1.7 will focus as fast as I want it to and whilst it's true that there is no viewfinder integrated into the camera you can buy an electronic one or fit a fixed optical one which is fine if you use a prime. Even the complaint about high ISO performance fades when you view what people are achieving and posting on this site with these cameras.

They really do deserve a close look IMVHO particularly if looking for a modern digital replacement for the rangefinder or quality film compact that many of us owned years ago.

I agree with your comments about the focus. My G10, G1 and GF1 focus as quick as my old 450d with a 28-135mm,and that is using the kit lens 14-42mm and 14-42mm. I no the 7D has a very godd auto focus so you might notice a big difference.
 
my experience is the same as yours, the Ep1 with Oly 25mm 4/3 pancake attached via an Oly mmf1 adapter the AF is lightning fast and with a 2.8 aperture the lens can handle most situations..

and again I am amazed how usable shots are at a high ISO.

they are great systems IMO, really wish I didnt have to sell mine but 'L' glass beckons :(

Reading posts like this I often wonder why my experience is so much different, particularly with focus as I find that my GF1+20mm f1.7 will focus as fast as I want it to and whilst it's true that there is no viewfinder integrated into the camera you can buy an electronic one or fit a fixed optical one which is fine if you use a prime. Even the complaint about high ISO performance fades when you view what people are achieving and posting on this site with these cameras.
 
Size is really the only benefit I can see with micro 4/3rds system.

The focus is slow, iso is poor higher than 800 and the lack of viewfinder on most is annoying once you're used to an SLR.

If you're not using it in low light or fast paced situations, it would be good. On holiday for example.

Day to day, it's SLR for me.

You're making comments about individual cameras and incorrectly applying them to the whole system. The focus on the first generation Panasonic cameras is quick, the second generation are faster with the GH2 in particularly being praised for its quick AF. Only the original E-P1 doesn't offer a viewfinder, the E-P2, E-PL1, E-PL2, GF1 and GF2 all have optional viewfinder (one for Olympus, one for Panasonic which aren't compatible) while the G1, GH1, G2, G10 and GH2 all offer builtin viewfinders.

I use micro 4/3 as my day to day setup, true the cameras can't match the D700's high ISO or C-AF system but the D700 won't fit in my pocket. In a shoulder bag where I can squeeze the D700 and 50mm F1.4 in, I can get the GH2, GF1, 7-14mm, 14mm, 14-140mm or 100-300mm and the 20mm F1.7 making for a very flexible and compact walk around set up. The GF1 with the 14mm or 20mm is my pocket camera with the other pancake prime in another pocket.

If I need the D700's performance and can take the bulk then it's an obvious choice but micro 4/3 is a very capable system which can handle my day to day needs.

John
 
You're making comments about individual cameras and incorrectly applying them to the whole system. The focus on the first generation Panasonic cameras is quick, the second generation are faster with the GH2 in particularly being praised for its quick AF. Only the original E-P1 doesn't offer a viewfinder, the E-P2, E-PL1, E-PL2, GF1 and GF2 all have optional viewfinder (one for Olympus, one for Panasonic which aren't compatible) while the G1, GH1, G2, G10 and GH2 all offer builtin viewfinders.

I use micro 4/3 as my day to day setup, true the cameras can't match the D700's high ISO or C-AF system but the D700 won't fit in my pocket. In a shoulder bag where I can squeeze the D700 and 50mm F1.4 in, I can get the GH2, GF1, 7-14mm, 14mm, 14-140mm or 100-300mm and the 20mm F1.7 making for a very flexible and compact walk around set up. The GF1 with the 14mm or 20mm is my pocket camera with the other pancake prime in another pocket.

If I need the D700's performance and can take the bulk then it's an obvious choice but micro 4/3 is a very capable system which can handle my day to day needs.

John

Much the same here. Have tried various DSLRs from various manufacturers but they're just too big and Canon and Nikon budget DSLRs are woefully lacking in features and performance on a size for size and value for money front.

Ideally I would have a GH2, but couldn't afford one so got the next best thing, a GH1.

I had originally looked at a G1 but it was no better performance wise than the Oly DSLR I was using, so the only advantage was size. The GH1 is a stop better in ISO and dynamic range and has a few refined features.

The GH2 is the current flagship.

If you want a non DSLR styled example then it would have to be EP2 or EPL2 for me, but bothare still pretty expensive.

ISO noise is comparable on the GHs to the best APS cameras, only a fraction down on them.

Full frame performance is obviosuly not possible.

The issues I have found with my GH1 are:

  • Poor auto white balance (although the custom wb is very easy to set)
  • Blue channel has poor tonal range, posterisation and blotchy skies are difficult to avoid
  • Lack of dedicated fast lens choice (although there are rumblings that such things will exist very soon)
  • MF Assist doesn't allow you to zoom out far enough IMO, and isn't level boosted as per normal VF image
  • Slow flash sync speed (1/160)
  • In Camera JOEGs are terrible, worse than a Nikon D40 and that's saying something!
  • AF is much like a compact.

It will however do things that even the best DSLRs won't: Viewfinder works in the dark and through even the darkest filters (Infra red and ND110s), and it can meter through them too for example.

Obviously there's no such thing as a perfect camera and mFT is still in it's infancy, and Panasonic as a camera manufacturer have clearly made huge leaps in very short timeframe, they still have some way to go I feel.

I wouldn't trade for a DSLR again, no way, but I am itching to see what the next mFT is.

So to sum up: If you want the rangefinder compact style, get a PEN, f you want the best possible ISO and DR performance and a more comfortable camera, get a GH2.
 
If you want a non DSLR styled example then it would have to be EP2 or EPL2 for me.

okay maybe the info I have read somewhere has been wrong or I have interpretted it incorrectly but I thought the EPL range were less appealling to DSLR users due to the menu driving settings compared to the EP range which have all the important things via buttons or wheels a la DSLR?? for example on the EP1 in manual mode there are 2 wheels 1 for shutter 1 for aperture just like a prosumer DSLR.. is that the case with the EPL range?
 
okay maybe the info I have read somewhere has been wrong or I have interpretted it incorrectly but I thought the EPL range were less appealling to DSLR users due to the menu driving settings compared to the EP range which have all the important things via buttons or wheels a la DSLR?? for example on the EP1 in manual mode there are 2 wheels 1 for shutter 1 for aperture just like a prosumer DSLR.. is that the case with the EPL range?

That was just the E-PL1. With the E-PL2, they added a control wheel like the one you find on the E-P1.
 
I've seen that NEX 5, and I'm not doubting it's capabilities, but I could never get along with the ergonomics of that camera, it just wont work with me.

The GH2 has a great spec, but it's the rangefinder feel I'm after, which may sound like a silly reason to disregard an excellent camera, but buying the GH2 would just feel like I'm buying a smaller DSLR, I'm after something fresh and new to me.

I'm not sure what the 'rangefinder feel' is, especially as hardly any of these cameras actually has an eye level viewfinder at all as standard.

But this one is certainly fresh and new (in a retro kind of way ;)) and as close as it gets I think - Fuji X100. And very nice it is too :thumbs: Just coming on sale now at a bit under £1k, but expect a queue http://www.dpreview.com/previews/fujifilmx100/ Fixed 23mm f/2 lens though (35mm FF equiv).
 
I'm not sure what the 'rangefinder feel' is, especially as hardly any of these cameras actually has an eye level viewfinder at all as standard.

But this one is certainly fresh and new (in a retro kind of way ;)) and as close as it gets I think - Fuji X100. And very nice it is too :thumbs: Just coming on sale now at a bit under £1k, but expect a queue http://www.dpreview.com/previews/fujifilmx100/ Fixed 23mm f/2 lens though (35mm FF equiv).

That looks absolutely perfect! I'll be waiting for detailed reviews before I make a move, but it looks fantastic.
 
These micro things are all very well, but, no hole to look through then not for me.
 
The hole could be either OVF or EVF.

It seems to me that most people critisising don't know too much about these.:)
 
Well, I only checked out the olympus ones
 
Pete B said:
Well, I only checked out the olympus ones

Olympus make a 17mm ovf for there pancake and a evf. Panasonic make a evf for there gf1/2.
 
Think some people are spoilt by modern SLR tech. These M4/3 cameras are amazing IMO. Almost all the pics on my site were taken with a GF1 or G1.

How did people ever manage to take decent pictures using ground glass with an upside down image etc?
 
Think some people are spoilt by modern SLR tech. These M4/3 cameras are amazing IMO. Almost all the pics on my site were taken with a GF1 or G1.

How did people ever manage to take decent pictures using ground glass with an upside down image etc?

Had a look at your website and it is probably one of the best adverts for the quality of m 4/3 I've ever seen.

I owned a EP-1 for about 4 months but I just couldn't get used to the lack of viewfinder, the menu layout and shooting with such a small body.

I think it's very much down to personal preference. As somebody has already pointed out a good photographer can take a good photo with any camera. It's more about what you feel comfortable working with and then getting to know your equipment inside out, it's strengths and it's weaknesses.
 
but it's the rangefinder feel I'm after,

That limits your choice to either the Leica M series or Epson R-D1/R-D1s ( made by Cosina). Both will accept Leica primes. Or you could wait for the new Fuji X100, due out probably next month, but its a fixed lens.
They certainly are different, but at a price!

Or, get a Leica X1 and a viewfinder. There are good optical viewfinders available that wont break the bank and will give you a hole to look through.

Allan
 
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Had a look at your website and it is probably one of the best adverts for the quality of m 4/3 I've ever seen.

Thanks! :)

I think it's very much down to personal preference. As somebody has already pointed out a good photographer can take a good photo with any camera. It's more about what you feel comfortable working with and then getting to know your equipment inside out, it's strengths and it's weaknesses.

:clap:
 
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