Mirrorless "shutter count" when buying used

firewireguy

firewireguy

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Hi all. First post here. Long time Nikon DSLR user (D50 -> D2H -> D300 -> D7100 + F80).
I've been out of the loop for a few years due to family life. I'm on the cusp of moving to Nikon mirrorless setup: Z6 ii & 24-70 f/4.

I'll almost certainly go for second hand gear, which I've had good luck with in the past. In the DSLR world cameras have a shutter life specification, 200,000 shots, say. Is there an equivalent in the mirrorless world? Should I be concerned if one camera has 100,000 shots vs one that 2,000? Or are there other factors that I should be looking in to that differ from the DSLR world?

Thanks
 
Its the same as the shutter count is only for the mechanical shutter
 
Worth noting that with mirrorless if 'electronic shutter' is used then it may not add to the shutter count. It is therefore worth making sure that the camera contact points are not showing signs of wear, and that if possible, you get a good warranty with it.
 
firewireguy said:
Right, I need to do some more reading. I thought mirrorless also didn't have a mechanical shutter
Click to expand...

There's usually a physical shutter, because modern sensors still have a lot of limitations. Sony are about to launch the first ever camera with a sensor design that doesn't need a shutter.
 
Nikon Z9 and Z8 do not have a mechanical shutter. Sony is releasing a full frame, global shutter, image sensor.
 
johnnypanic said:
Nikon Z9 and Z8 do not have a mechanical shutter. Sony is releasing a full frame, global shutter, image sensor.
Click to expand...

Having just read up about it, I think my statement is correct. Not sure I'd buy a Z8 or Z9, but the rolling shutter and banding may not be significant real-world problems except in limited situations.

www.techradar.com

Nikon explains why the Z9 ditches the mechanical shutter – and why it's a big deal

Exclusive: Nikon tells us why the Z9 has gone electronic-only
www.techradar.com www.techradar.com
 
Just watched a video on it and unless you're needing shutter speeds greater than 1/8000 or need quite operation there seems little advantage to electronic shutters.

At least I know to ask about it now!

This may be a daft question, but I'm guessing there's no 'life time' to an electronic shutter?
 
firewireguy said:
Just watched a video on it and unless you're needing shutter speeds greater than 1/8000 or need quite operation there seems little advantage to electronic shutters.

At least I know to ask about it now!

This may be a daft question, but I'm guessing there's no 'life time' to an electronic shutter?
Click to expand...

Not the shutter, but the controls & electronics generally.

On my Sony A7III the shutter button is becoming temperamental as they do, and it needs to go back to Sony for a clean & check. This is the kind if thing that will affect cameras without shutters, when controls and contacts wear or get dirty and start to fail.

An advantage of global shutter image sensor is that flash sync will work at any speed longer than flash duration, plus it's silent and fewer parts to wear, easier to make, less expensive to produce (but more to buy) and blackout-free shooting too depending on make & model.
 
Shutter count with Oly only relates to mechanical shutter, electric shutter actuations ar not recorded.
 
firewireguy said:
This may be a daft question, but I'm guessing there's no 'life time' to an electronic shutter?
Click to expand...
The fact that they’re absolutely silent is a distinct advantage in a lot of cases.

That said mirrorless is virtually silent compared to a dslr (most of the ‘shutter sound’ is actually mirror slap).

Some people set electronic only when they get the camera, some of us never use it.
 
Almost all mirrorless cameras still have a mechanical shutter, apart from the Nikon Z8/Z9 and the soon to be released Sony A9III. I rarely use electronic shutter on my Fuji X-T4, but I don't ever really go above 1/8000th, and the mechanical shutter makes a lovely quiet sound. It's just not as satisfying using the electronic shutter.

But to answer the actual question, shutter count only refers to actuations of the mechanical shutter. If someone has used a mirrorless camera entirely in ES mode from day 1 the shutter count would be 0.
 
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firewireguy said:
Right, I need to do some more reading. I thought mirrorless also didn't have a mechanical shutter
Click to expand...
No, mirrorless did away with the mirror which needed to be lifted up out of the way as part of the process of taking a photograph, but most still have a physical shutter.
If you've got your camera in mechanical shutter mode, it still opens and closes as before.
If you've got your camera in electronic shutter mode, the shutter opens when the camera is turned on, and closes when its turned off, or goes into a sleep mode.
 
The only time my electronic shutter gets any use is for video. It does have it's advantages with regard to burst modes (I can get 30fps electronic vs 9fps mechanical) but unless you've got stacked sensor like on the Nikon Z8/Z9 or a global shutter like the upcoming Sony A9III then there's always a risk of rolling shutter effect due to the line by line sensor read out speed.

Generally the smaller the sensor, the quicker the readout speed and the less rolling shutter effect is present due to the line by line sensor reading being markedly quicker on a smaller surface area.

With regards to mechanical shutter counts as others have stated these do not include electronic shutter use as there is no actuation on the shutter. I very rarely hear of shutter failures even with particularly heavy use so it seems the majority of camera manufacturers seem to have the reliability down to a tee. Others will have way more knowledge on that though.

If two bodies had hugely differing shutter counts, I'd take the lower number for sure but I don't know if it's as important as we can make it out to be.
 
andrewc said:
If you've got your camera in electronic shutter mode, the shutter opens when the camera is turned on, and closes when its turned off, or goes into a sleep mode.
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The shutters on all the Panasonics I have are usually open, (when off and before you take a photo)
When you take a photo, the shutter closes, opens and closes to expose the photo, then returns to its open resting state.

As far as I know, other makes are the same
 
Sangoma said:
The shutters on all the Panasonics I have are usually open, (when off and before you take a photo)
When you take a photo, the shutter closes, opens and closes to expose the photo, then returns to its open resting state.

As far as I know, other makes are the same
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure my canon has a closed shutter when the camera is off.
 
Sangoma said:
The shutters on all the Panasonics I have are usually open, (when off and before you take a photo)
When you take a photo, the shutter closes, opens and closes to expose the photo, then returns to its open resting state.

As far as I know, other makes are the same
Click to expand...
I'm sure I've seen someone saying Panasonic are an exception to this rather than a rule. I'm a Lumix user myself and I've seen the question pop up on Livestreams a couple of times asking why there isn't an option to close the shutter when the camera isn't in use or when changing lenses but they've always got a reason why they don't that I can't remember off the top of my head because it didn't seem logical to me.
 
Adam-G said:
I'm sure I've seen someone saying Panasonic are an exception to this rather than a rule. I'm a Lumix user myself and I've seen the question pop up on Livestreams a couple of times asking why there isn't an option to close the shutter when the camera isn't in use or when changing lenses but they've always got a reason why they don't that I can't remember off the top of my head because it didn't seem logical to me.
Click to expand...
Fuji works like this too, the shutter is always open when the camera is off or when changing lenses and there's no option to close it when the camera is off or when a lens is removed.
 
Adam-G said:
I'm sure I've seen someone saying Panasonic are an exception to this rather than a rule. I'm a Lumix user myself and I've seen the question pop up on Livestreams a couple of times asking why there isn't an option to close the shutter when the camera isn't in use or when changing lenses but they've always got a reason why they don't that I can't remember off the top of my head because it didn't seem logical to me.
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I think it is logical, otherwise you would have to open the shutter and hold it open to see "through" the viewfinder
 
Sangoma said:
I think it is logical, otherwise you would have to open the shutter and hold it open to see "through" the viewfinder
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Apologies, my communication was poor. I meant it was illogical not to include an option to lock it off when the camera is powered down or you're changing lenses.
 
Sony shutter is open when the camera is off too.

The point of the global shutter in A9III is that it should not suffer rolling shutter effect like other non-global systems.

In some cameras using electronic shutter can affect dynamic range. For some micro four thirds camera and lens combinations it is essential to prevent shutter shock, which can make sharp images impossible.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Sony shutter is open when the camera is off too.

The point of the global shutter in A9III is that it should not suffer rolling shutter effect like other non-global systems.

In some cameras using electronic shutter can affect dynamic range. For some micro four thirds camera and lens combinations it is essential to prevent shutter shock, which can make sharp images impossible.
Click to expand...
More recent Sony's have an option to close the shutter when powering off.
The issue with doing so is that instead of leaving the sensor exposed to the potential of dust (which is easily and cheaply resolved by the owner) you leave the shutter exposed - and if that gets damaged it means sending the camera off for repair - meaning no camera for a time, plus the cost of repair.

Global shutter means in place of the existing shutter mechanism you could put a much more robust shutter type mechanism designed to resist damage, since it only would only need to open / close relatively slowly (taking 0.1s would be fine, for example).

Edit: Originally had typo of "shutter" in place of "sensor" :headbang:
 
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Faldrax said:
Global shutter means in place of the existing shutter mechanism you could put a much more robust shutter type mechanism designed to resist damage, since it only would only need to open / close relatively slowly (taking 0.1s would be fine, for example).
Click to expand...

The shutter would have to be open all the time that the camera was in use to provide signal for the viewfinder or screen.
 
Have a good look at the camera, regardless of any shutter count figure someone throws at you a well used camera usually has tell tale signs.
And a camera owned by someone who did not care about the equipment is even more obvious.

I try to buy ones that still look near mint condition with the box and everything it came with from new. If they threw it all away then i will look for someone who kept it all instead.

As for shutters, they can fail at 2000 shots or whatever even if they were tested for 200,000.
 
firewireguy said:
Just watched a video on it and unless you're needing shutter speeds greater than 1/8000 or need quite operation there seems little advantage to electronic shutters.

At least I know to ask about it now!

This may be a daft question, but I'm guessing there's no 'life time' to an electronic shutter?
Click to expand...
In addition to high speed and being silent another big operation of the electronic shutter on stacked and global sensors is there's no blackout on shots so it makes it much easier to track action shots when using burst modes.

There's no mechanical movement for the electronic shutter so there's nothing to 'wear out' although looking at second hand cameras I feel it's more the general wear and tear to the body that's a concern. A camera that's been used heavily with its electronic shutter has likely had heavy use in general so could have other issues with parts wearing out.
 
Faldrax said:
The issue with doing so is that instead of leaving the shutter exposed to the potential of dust (which is easily and cheaply resolved by the owner) you leave the shutter exposed - and if that gets damaged it means sending the camera off for repair - meaning no camera for a time, plus the cost of repair.
Click to expand...
Are one of the "shutter"s there meant to be sensor?

I assume so, in some cases the shutter is more easily damaged by dust then the sensor, which is why I will not use a blower on the sensor, as it blows the dust into the shutter.

The sensor in not exposed anyway, it it the glass/filter in front of the sensor, which is very robust,
 
Sangoma said:
Are one of the "shutter"s there meant to be sensor?

I assume so, in some cases the shutter is more easily damaged by dust then the sensor, which is why I will not use a blower on the sensor, as it blows the dust into the shutter.

The sensor in not exposed anyway, it it the glass/filter in front of the sensor, which is very robust,
Click to expand...
Oops, yes, should say "leaving the sensor exposed to the potential of dust". (y)
I'll edit to correct.
 
Thanks everyone. I tend to only go for cameras that are clearly well looked after. Although even then looks can be deceiving. My own D7100 for example looks spot on but closer digging with reveal a small crack and that the flash popup and bracketing buttons dont work (none of which bothers me). I'll tend to use places that offer returns in case of this kind of things.
 
As you now realise electronic shutters don’t show up on used cameras , so I would highly recommend buying from WEX who grade there cameras accurately ..and offer a trial period and genuine warranty .. look for the highest grading if possible I.e 9+ this means virtually as new .
Also be aware menu systems can be quite complicated in mirrorless as they can now do so much more than DSLR bodies so expect a learning curve
 
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