Mixing Flash with Ambient light (indoors)

[LC2]

I've asked this question in the Fuji thread with no answers, so thought I'd open it to the wider lighting forum...

I've been doing a fair bit of indoor event photography, Comic Cons, that sort of thing, for my cosplay friends.
I use flash, defused, but still quite hard - it's run and gun, so dragging a big softbox along isn't really an option. I either use a flashdisc or bounced off a white bounce card.

The problem I have is that obviously flash at ~5600k and indoor light are not the same temperature.

I understand the concept of using gels to bring the flash to the same temperature as the ambient light.

The problem I have is knowing what the ambient light temperature is...

My first thought was setting a custom white balance using a grey card in camera and checking what temperature it has set.
But, try as I might, I can't get my Fuji X-T3 to give me the temperature on the camera (I can get it from Lightroom, but that's after the fact).
I'm not good enough to be able to look at the lighting and know what it is...

1. Does anyone know if there is a way to get the kelvin temp from the Fuji if I set a custom white balance (assuming that this would help me).
2. I'm guessing that a light meter would be able to tell me. can anyone recommend an inexpensive meter.
3. Am I missing something obvious?

Thanks

 

[Phil V]

You can’t possibly ‘match’ the light perfectly*, so anything you do is a compromise temperature wise.

So your options are to:

• Acknowledge the difference and work with it - go blue and any incandescent will become more orange, go purple and any fluorescent will become more green - this might help get you an ‘effect’.
• Try a ‘near enough’ approach with a half cto or a green fluorescent equivalent. It’ll lessen the difference.

The other issue is that you really should think about what you can do with your speedlight. If you’re not happy making it big enough to be soft, then get it off camera so that you can at least place the shadows on purpose.

*2 identical lamps will be different temperatures depending on age.

 

[LC2]

You can’t possibly ‘match’ the light perfectly*, so anything you do is a compromise temperature wise.

So your options are to:

• Acknowledge the difference and work with it - go blue and any incandescent will become more orange, go purple and any fluorescent will become more green - this might help get you an ‘effect’.
• Try a ‘near enough’ approach with a half cto or a green fluorescent equivalent. It’ll lessen the difference.

The other issue is that you really should think about what you can do with your speedlight. If you’re not happy making it big enough to be soft, then get it off camera so that you can at least place the shadows on purpose.

*2 identical lamps will be different temperatures depending on age.

Ah, there was me thinking that it might be something like 1/4 cto for X light, 1/2 cto for Y light, but gotcha, I'll try a 1/2 cto and see what I get.

I'm not overly concerned by the shadows, as I try not to let the cosplayers stand anywhere near a wall and to be honest it's hard to get an uncluttered background.
What I'm trying to avoid is this sort of effect, where the two cosplayers are more or less spot on colour wise, but the background has a overly warm feel to it (which it wasn't in reality).


Lisa & Venti - Genshin Impact by Tim White, on Flickr

 

[Phil V]

I'm not overly concerned by the shadows, as I try not to let the cosplayers stand anywhere near a wall and to be honest it's hard to get an uncluttered background.

The shadows that are on your subject.

That’s why we ‘control light’! To control shadows. The whole point of photography is to create a 2d representation from which we see a 3D object. And the main clue to that is shadows.

On camera flash creates next to no shadow, and the small harsh shadows it does create aren’t much use at all.

The same light source can create the same hard shadows, but when lit from an angle they start to do ‘something’

 

[LC2]

The shadows that are on your subject.

That’s why we ‘control light’! To control shadows. The whole point of photography is to create a 2d representation from which we see a 3D object. And the main clue to that is shadows.

On camera flash creates next to no shadow, and the small harsh shadows it does create aren’t much use at all.

The same light source can create the same hard shadows, but when lit from an angle they start to do ‘something’

Hi Phil, yes sorry I wasn't thinking when I answered yesterday. I get what you mean about shadows now.
Though quite often flat light can actually be more flattering than picking out imperfections with shadow, I do understand that having the flash on camera does limit what I'm doing.

I do sometimes get the light off camera with a stand and decent modifier, but that tends to be at smaller conventions where there is more space.
But when it's busy, it's just easier not to (and it's better than some of the very high ISO pictures I see being taken in the dark (at least in my opinion)).


What the photo was meant to illustrate was the difference in colour temperature between the subject(s) and the background. That's what I'm looking to eliminate using gels, hence trying to figure out how to find out the ambient colour temperature.

As I said, I'll try out you recommendation of just going 1/2 cto to see if suffices.
It's just that I thought tungsten wanted 1/4 cto and florescent 1/2 cto. Hence trying to understand what the lighting actually is.

 

[TimHughes]

Hi Tim, I've been photographing comic cons for a few years, e.g. many of the pics in the galleries here. In general, we find it better to pose people in good lighting situations, or near windows or outside. We rarely use flash, only if the lighting is unavoidable and really bad and then only for fill with the exposure compensation -1 or -2 so there are no hard shadows from the flash. I pick 1/2 or full CTO for tungsten or plus green for fluorescent sometimes using the "sidus link" app that has a white balance checker if I'm not sure.

Once I made a photostory about one cosplayers comic con experience from dawn to dusk and for that I did carry a softbox with a godox AD600 on a monopod around all day and that did work really well when needed.

 

[Phil V]

As I said, I'll try out you recommendation of just going 1/2 cto to see if suffices.
It's just that I thought tungsten wanted 1/4 cto and florescent 1/2 cto. Hence trying to understand what the lighting actually is.

I don’t know where this notion originated; but let’s bust it.

CTO is literally ‘convert to orange’, because traditional incandescent lights are orange. So a CTO gel will bring a flash close to the colour of an old fashioned ‘light bulb’. From there you can adjust the WB to cool down the results.

Traditional fluorescent lamps though are green not orange.

Unfortunately, and this is where my knowledge peters out, in large arenas the lighting is likely to be neither of those colours, as there are much more efficient lights used inside venues nowadays, and the colour palate can vary widely.

Colorimeters (sp?) are expensive. However, if you simply set your camera to daylight wb and take a test shot of an interior, the colour of that will let you know roughly what you need to gel to get close to it.

However, I’ll go back to how I would approach the task, and that is to care more about how I’m lighting a subject than about colour temp of the ambient, because to me the subject is the subject and the surroundings are what they are and recording them warmer than my subject is simply adding something else to the story.

And I will be blunt (as that appears my default position). I’d rather not bother taking a camera if the only light source is unbounced on camera flash. I appreciate it’s a ‘look’ some photographers like, but personally I hate it. And this is how much I hate it; when I go on holiday, along with a flashgun I take a transmitter and a small flash modifier, and any time I need flash, at the very least the flash is softened and at arms length from the camera.

 

[TimHughes]

IColorimeters (sp?) are expensive. However, if you simply set your camera to daylight wb and take a test shot of an interior, the colour of that will let you know roughly what you need to gel to get close to it.

The free sidus link app https://www.sidus.link/ allows your phone to read WB. The app is designed to work with aperture lights but you can use this feature standalone.

 

[TimHughes]

And I will be blunt (as that appears my default position). I’d rather not bother taking a camera if the only light source is unbounced on camera flash. I appreciate it’s a ‘look’ some photographers like, but personally I hate it. And this is how much I hate it; when I go on holiday, along with a flashgun I take a transmitter and a small flash modifier, and any time I need flash, at the very least the flash is softened and at arms length from the camera.

The only time I like using it is for party pics:
- with bracket, either to get the flash closer to the lens or a bit further away
- slow shutter to expose the background and steady hand
- modelling lamp on to nail the focus if it's really dark
- exposure comp -1 to -2

 

[swanseamale47]

As it's more a fill light would one of those variable colour video lights on camera help? They are cheap enough to have a play and you can "dial" in the colour temp to a certain extent.
Off camera flash is probably best but there isn't always room, many of the CC's I've been to are crammed and holding out a flash is either going to get in knocked out of your hand or blocked by someone standing next to you.
I did see one chap with a softbox on a backpack frame about 3 foot up over his head, don't know how well it worked though, although he seemed happy enough.

 

[LC2]

Hi Tim, I've been photographing comic cons for a few years, e.g. many of the pics in the galleries here. In general, we find it better to pose people in good lighting situations, or near windows or outside. We rarely use flash, only if the lighting is unavoidable and really bad and then only for fill with the exposure compensation -1 or -2 so there are no hard shadows from the flash. I pick 1/2 or full CTO for tungsten or plus green for fluorescent sometimes using the "sidus link" app that has a white balance checker if I'm not sure.

Once I made a photostory about one cosplayers comic con experience from dawn to dusk and for that I did carry a softbox with a godox AD600 on a monopod around all day and that did work really well when needed.

Cheers Tim, that app looks to be what I was looking for given I can't figure out how to get the X-T3 to display the Kelvin values itself (until downloading).
I will have a play with it and set some gels appropriately.

I didn't realise fluorescent was green (shows how little I know about colour temperature).

I've used my ad300 at some of the smaller cons, on a light stand, but generally with the small R14 reflector to give a hard light, rather than lugging a softbox around. I'd not want to drag it around something like MCM though.

 

[LC2]

I don’t know where this notion originated; but let’s bust it.

CTO is literally ‘convert to orange’, because traditional incandescent lights are orange. So a CTO gel will bring a flash close to the colour of an old fashioned ‘light bulb’. From there you can adjust the WB to cool down the results.

Traditional fluorescent lamps though are green not orange.

This shows up my lack of knowledge, I thought orange, I didn't realise it was green. Thanks to you and Tim I am now better informed

Unfortunately, and this is where my knowledge peters out, in large arenas the lighting is likely to be neither of those colours, as there are much more efficient lights used inside venues nowadays, and the colour palate can vary widely.

Yes, they vary quite wildley. Conventions in the UK are held anywhere from large professional centres like the Excel / NEC to hotels or sport centers.
Hence wanting something / some way of getting the Kelvin figure so I could look it up for the appropriate gel.

Colorimeters (sp?) are expensive. However, if you simply set your camera to daylight wb and take a test shot of an interior, the colour of that will let you know roughly what you need to gel to get close to it.

That was the problem, I don't have the experience to be able to just look and know, as a beginner to this, I need something to hold my hand.
The fuji just says "it's auto", or "it's custom WB #1" (if you set the WB with a grey card) and not the values.
@TimHughes has provided an answer though

However, I’ll go back to how I would approach the task, and that is to care more about how I’m lighting a subject than about colour temp of the ambient, because to me the subject is the subject and the surroundings are what they are and recording them warmer than my subject is simply adding something else to the story.

And I will be blunt (as that appears my default position). I’d rather not bother taking a camera if the only light source is unbounced on camera flash. I appreciate it’s a ‘look’ some photographers like, but personally I hate it. And this is how much I hate it; when I go on holiday, along with a flashgun I take a transmitter and a small flash modifier, and any time I need flash, at the very least the flash is softened and at arms length from the camera.

As you say, it's all about the look you're after, and you're looking on this as a professional, whereas I'm a cosplayer and a cosplay tog for his friends, so getting the shot of them in their cosplay is actually more important than it being a work of art.
I'm not using a bare Fresnel head flash, it's either bounced into a small diffuser (on axis) or using the bounce card and diffuser in the AK-R1 kit for godox to move it slightly off axis.
I fully appreciate it's not going to be fantastic, but it's portable and compact and they are both important considerations.
Especially when you have a 90 minute tube journey each way to some events, and given the crush you can get at some of the bigger cons.
If I'm taking a car, I will often chuck a stand, light and modifier in the boot in case it is worth grabbing them.

Don't worry about being blunt with me, I'm not going to have a hissy fit
And many thanks for clearing up my confusion over the various colours of lighting.

 

[LC2]

As it's more a fill light would one of those variable colour video lights on camera help? They are cheap enough to have a play and you can "dial" in the colour temp to a certain extent.
Off camera flash is probably best but there isn't always room, many of the CC's I've been to are crammed and holding out a flash is either going to get in knocked out of your hand or blocked by someone standing next to you.
I did see one chap with a softbox on a backpack frame about 3 foot up over his head, don't know how well it worked though, although he seemed happy enough.

Not sure I'd want to try getting a light on a frame past security at the excel

 

[Garry Edwards]

I've never been to a Comicon - don't want to meet the Howard Wolowitz types - but I guess that the ambient lighting will be similar to most other events of that type, variable.

You definitely need to get the flash off-camera, for far more creative and impactful lighting, but that's really a separate issue.

If you don't like the "correct" colour of the flash lighting with the "wrong" colour(s) of the background ambient light, where the flash isn't having any effect, just fit a gentle warming gel to the flash to approximate the colour of the ambient lighting. You could use a colour temperature meter to measure the colour, but I think that that would be over-complicated, too expensive, too time-consuming and unnecessary. There will always be different background lights of different colours and you'll never get it perfect. It can be done, but it's a big, expensive job that is only ever justified in exceptional circumstances, such as in the large buildings that I often had to photograph, way back when. Typically these would be large stores, offices or factories lit by fluorescent striplights which, over time, had had replacement tubes of the wrong colour fitted. Most people wouldn't notice the different light colours but, in a still photo, the different colours would be all that anyone would see and my standard approach when quoting for the job would be to tell the client that they needed to remove all the striplights and replace them with new ones of the same colour, giving the right spec., or if they preferred I would place colour correcting gels over the lights as necessary. As my hourly rate was higher than their electricians' rate they did as they were asked.

Try to keep the power of the flash down, so that the background doesn't go dark. Or use a fairly slow shutter speed to match the ambient light with the flash.

 

[Phil V]

This shows up my lack of knowledge, I thought orange, I didn't realise it was green. Thanks to you and Tim I am now better informed

Yes, they vary quite wildley. Conventions in the UK are held anywhere from large professional centres like the Excel / NEC to hotels or sport centers.
Hence wanting something / some way of getting the Kelvin figure so I could look it up for the appropriate gel.

That was the problem, I don't have the experience to be able to just look and know, as a beginner to this, I need something to hold my hand.
The fuji just says "it's auto", or "it's custom WB #1" (if you set the WB with a grey card) and not the values.
@TimHughes has provided an answer though

As you say, it's all about the look you're after, and you're looking on this as a professional, whereas I'm a cosplayer and a cosplay tog for his friends, so getting the shot of them in their cosplay is actually more important than it being a work of art.
I'm not using a bare Fresnel head flash, it's either bounced into a small diffuser (on axis) or using the bounce card and diffuser in the AK-R1 kit for godox to move it slightly off axis.
I fully appreciate it's not going to be fantastic, but it's portable and compact and they are both important considerations.
Especially when you have a 90 minute tube journey each way to some events, and given the crush you can get at some of the bigger cons.
If I'm taking a car, I will often chuck a stand, light and modifier in the boot in case it is worth grabbing them.

Don't worry about being blunt with me, I'm not going to have a hissy fit
And many thanks for clearing up my confusion over the various colours of lighting.

I didn’t want to do the ‘as a pro’ thing as it’s disingenuous having hung up my boots.
But I have shot hundreds of events and never bothered gelling the flash in order to match the ambient. Cos I frankly didn’t care that the bg was warmer than the subject, if anything I thought it added to the story. I find it an odd thing to prioritise.

But I did always care about exactly what light I was hitting my subject with. Not in a ‘work of art’ way, but only in a ‘I don’t want it to be horrible’ way.

BTW I wouldn’t expect my camera to tell me what the light temperature is, but you’d be surprised how obvious the colour cast is if you simply shoot using daylight wb. And frankly if you do that and you really can’t see the colour, it means it’s v close to daylight.

 

[LC2]

I've never been to a Comicon - don't want to meet the Howard Wolowitz types - but I guess that the ambient lighting will be similar to most other events of that type, variable.

You definitely need to get the flash off-camera, for far more creative and impactful lighting, but that's really a separate issue.

If you don't like the "correct" colour of the flash lighting with the "wrong" colour(s) of the background ambient light, where the flash isn't having any effect, just fit a gentle warming gel to the flash to approximate the colour of the ambient lighting. You could use a colour temperature meter to measure the colour, but I think that that would be over-complicated, too expensive, too time-consuming and unnecessary. There will always be different background lights of different colours and you'll never get it perfect. It can be done, but it's a big, expensive job that is only ever justified in exceptional circumstances, such as in the large buildings that I often had to photograph, way back when. Typically these would be large stores, offices or factories lit by fluorescent striplights which, over time, had had replacement tubes of the wrong colour fitted. Most people wouldn't notice the different light colours but, in a still photo, the different colours would be all that anyone would see and my standard approach when quoting for the job would be to tell the client that they needed to remove all the striplights and replace them with new ones of the same colour, giving the right spec., or if they preferred I would place colour correcting gels over the lights as necessary. As my hourly rate was higher than their electricians' rate they did as they were asked.

Try to keep the power of the flash down, so that the background doesn't go dark. Or use a fairly slow shutter speed to match the ambient light with the flash.

I had to google Howard Wolowitz... I've never watched the Big Bang Theory
You can meet some interesting people, but then that's the case in all walks of life really..

Yes, the light is, well variable is a polite way of putting it.
It doesn't really bother me that the background light is a different colour to the flash, but I have been noticing it and thought I would have a go at balancing it.
Interestingly, letting the background go dark can be a benefit, as it obscures the chaos that you often cannot avoid at this type of event.

 

[LC2]

I didn’t want to do the ‘as a pro’ thing as it’s disingenuous having hung up my boots.
But I have shot hundreds of events and never bothered gelling the flash in order to match the ambient. Cos I frankly didn’t care that the bg was warmer than the subject, if anything I thought it added to the story. I find it an odd thing to prioritise.

But I did always care about exactly what light I was hitting my subject with. Not in a ‘work of art’ way, but only in a ‘I don’t want it to be horrible’ way.

BTW I wouldn’t expect my camera to tell me what the light temperature is, but you’d be surprised how obvious the colour cast is if you simply shoot using daylight wb. And frankly if you do that and you really can’t see the colour, it means it’s v close to daylight.

I didn't realise you'd stopped working professionally, I knew you were in the business.
As I've said above to Garry, I'm not prioritising getting the background colour to match, but it is something I've noticed so wanted to try to do something about it. If it works and is fairly easy, great. If not, c'est la vie.

Work of art was probably not the right wording. But you will have been looking at it from a pro perspective, as that's been your livelihood. Whereas I'm just trying to get record shots in general, which are hopefully better than selfies (which is often all the cosplayers come away from events with).
Flat light may not be dramatic, but it does have the advantage of reducing blemishes. It's not like I'm hitting them with a bare fresnel.
But would you really fancy carrying even a small softbox around somewhere like this (and this was a smaller, less busy convention).

DSCF0283 by Tim White, on Flickr

 

[Phil V]

I didn't realise you'd stopped working professionally, I knew you were in the business.
As I've said above to Garry, I'm not prioritising getting the background colour to match, but it is something I've noticed so wanted to try to do something about it. If it works and is fairly easy, great. If not, c'est la vie.

Work of art was probably not the right wording. But you will have been looking at it from a pro perspective, as that's been your livelihood. Whereas I'm just trying to get record shots in general, which are hopefully better than selfies (which is often all the cosplayers come away from events with).
Flat light may not be dramatic, but it does have the advantage of reducing blemishes. It's not like I'm hitting them with a bare fresnel.
But would you really fancy carrying even a small softbox around somewhere like this (and this was a smaller, less busy convention).

DSCF0283 by Tim White, on Flickr

I wouldn’t carry a softbox… unless I’d decided I definitely wanted to create a set of uniform images which I would be putting a lot more effort into (as per Tim’s post above)
I do try to at least hold my flash off to the side and I like the little pop up tennis bat thing - ignore they call it a softbox, it literally collapses into a pocketable pouch
This shows it on camera but it’s more effective off.

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You don’t need a lightstand either, just ask your mate, or their mate to hold the flash appropriately , they’ll think it’s fun to be part of the process.

 

[LC2]

I like the little pop up tennis bat thing

Funnily enough I've been using one of those since about 2018, when I was investigating which small lightweight modifiers I liked / didn't like.
I found that best too. Mine is a bit beaten up now though, but is always in my bag.
I'm currently using one of these (stock advertising image from godox) with the dome and bounce card on an 860vii, but with the flash set to the side to put the light 8" or so off axis.

This is easier to gel than the flash disc (at least I think the gels will not be damaged as quickly, and will be easier to change).

I'll give the flash disc a go off camera in a couple of weeks at my next event to see how it goes.
I know it's the right thing to do, but ease of use trumps everything when you can be on your feet for 8+ hours, 3 days on the trot.

 

[Phil V]

Funnily enough I've been using one of those since about 2018, when I was investigating which small lightweight modifiers I liked / didn't like.
I found that best too. Mine is a bit beaten up now though, but is always in my bag.
I'm currently using one of these (stock advertising image from godox) with the dome and bounce card on an 860vii, but with the flash set to the side to put the light 8" or so off axis.
View attachment 349598
This is easier to gel than the flash disc (at least I think the gels will not be damaged as quickly, and will be easier to change).

I'll give the flash disc a go off camera in a couple of weeks at my next event to see how it goes.
I know it's the right thing to do, but ease of use trumps everything when you can be on your feet for 8+ hours, 3 days on the trot.

That Godox dome is far from ideal in a large venue. Like a Fong dong it can be very effective at softening light in a v small room, but at a comic con it’s simply a massive waste of flash power.

It might sound sometimes like there’s hype when we’re so sure of a products ability, but it’s based on a bit of physics and common sense.

Draw a small box, in the middle a round dome, assume that the light will leave the dome omnidirectionally, and draw the lines from the dome to the walls and back towards a ‘subject’. Light hits them from all directions (inc ceiling). Now draw a huge box and do the same thing. It’s obvious that due to the inverse square law, most of your flash power just got thrown away.

The reflector at the top of it mitigates that a little, but as it’s only gonna reflect the light that’s hitting it towards your subject, why not just let all the light hit it

But seriously at any reasonable camera distance, the difference between the light direct from a fresnel lens and a 4” reflector is virtually zero

 

[Deleted member 95430]

As not to start another ambient/flash thread I'll hijack this one ( thanks!)

D3 + Godox V860iii.

Playing with bounce, my dog is well lit but I've complete blown out the ambient light with the power of the flash (TTL)

Whats the best way to balance the two effectively to light the subject enough?

Its my understanding, ill have to either have a large aperture and a higher ISO to bring up the ambient, or if I want more DOF say 5.6 ( as above) ill need more flash power and that will remove the ambient.

I also have a remote trigger so can hold the flash in my hand if thatll make things better

Its my brothers birthday in a few weeks at a rugby club ( evening) so would like to get some well lit shots indoors and have it look more natural if possible, Id still be happy to come away with the kind of shot above as well more so than a poorly lit smartphone shot

Thanks!

 

[Phil V]

Hi @acrobatic_Citron
I’ll treat this as if you know nothing, so forgive me if I’m teaching my granny to suck eggs.

Whenever you add flash you’re creating 2 separate exposures that need balancing (this is true whether flash is the fill or the ‘only’ light source).

So you need firstly to ask, what exactly you want the ambient to be?

In your test shot, it looks to me like the ambient has lit the background, the sofa might be mostly illuminated by the flash, but the table looks to be lit only by the ambient.

So what were you expecting / aiming for.

My general start point would be to use M and set an ambient exposure that’s about a stop underexposed, then have ettl light the subject to give some separation. That’s roughly what your test pic has done.

If your flash is any more ‘balanced’ than that it’ll become difficult to know what’s flash lit, ergo what’s the point?

 

[Deleted member 95430]

My general start point would be to use M and set an ambient exposure that’s about a stop underexposed, then have ettl light the subject to give some separation. That’s roughly what your test pic has done.

Thank for the info! and yes when it comes to flash and ambient I do indeed know nothing. Above you mentioned use M to set ambient which makes sense, on my Nikon when I turn on the flash the SS is fixed on 1/60 and in A so I assume therefore I should leave camera in manual and let ttl do the rest of the work

If I want more ambient I can then either lower shutter speed or raise iso, and its best to start at lowest iso for more headroom?

Last but not least is there a way to do this more automatically? perhaps leave camera in A, and use only the iso as headroom for ambient?

 

[Phil V]

Thank for the info! and yes when it comes to flash and ambient I do indeed know nothing. Above you mentioned use M to set ambient which makes sense, on my Nikon when I turn on the flash the SS is fixed on 1/60 and in A so I assume therefore I should leave camera in manual and let ttl do the rest of the work

If I want more ambient I can then either lower shutter speed or raise iso, and its best to start at lowest iso for more headroom?

Last but not least is there a way to do this more automatically? perhaps leave camera in A, and use only the iso as headroom for ambient?

If you’re using TTL for the flash and M, you’re right that either iso or SS will alter the ambient.

Often the lazy way of describing the exposure balance (with manual flash) is SS for ambient and aperture for the flash, but I’m not fond cos it only works if you don’t run up against sync speeds etc.

 

[sk66]

Thank for the info! and yes when it comes to flash and ambient I do indeed know nothing. Above you mentioned use M to set ambient which makes sense, on my Nikon when I turn on the flash the SS is fixed on 1/60 and in A so I assume therefore I should leave camera in manual and let ttl do the rest of the work

If I want more ambient I can then either lower shutter speed or raise iso, and its best to start at lowest iso for more headroom?

Last but not least is there a way to do this more automatically? perhaps leave camera in A, and use only the iso as headroom for ambient?

When the camera is in control it is going to try to get the best possible exposure before adding the flash; it doesn't matter which exposure factor(s) it has control over... this is sometimes referred to as "fill mode."

The 1/60 setting is because that is the default limit for the slowest it's allowed to go with flash. But it can be set slower for creative effect (menu e2 on most Nikons).

 

[sk66]

Last but not least is there a way to do this more automatically? perhaps leave camera in A, and use only the iso as headroom for ambient?

Maybe... many Nikon's have a setting called "easy ISO" that can be enabled. That puts ISO on the other control dial when the camera is set to A or S priority.

So in aperture priority w/ fixed ISO you can have aperture control on the front dial and ISO on the back dial. And the SS will be as low as it can go to get a decent exposure before the flash is added (generally 1/60).

Other Nikons have an "easy EC" setting instead... seems to be the cameras that are more sports/action oriented. That is less useful in this situation IMO. In this case full manual w/ TTL flash is probably best. Start with an ISO that is high enough that the lowest SS you are willing to use, combined with the largest aperture you have available, requires the minimum amount of flash.

 

[Deleted member 95430]

Awesome thanks guys - i'll take some more test shots and figure out what works

 

[Deleted member 95430]

this is sometimes referred to as "fill mode."

This is actually very handy and simple: Manual mode with TTL you fully control exposure, Any other mode with TTL camera is trying to fill

 

[Faldrax]

This is actually very handy and simple: Manual mode with TTL you fully control exposure, Any other mode with TTL camera is trying to fill

Not quite - You are setting the Aperture, Shutter and ISO - the CAMERA is then using those to determine how much power it thinks the flash needs to output to obtain a 'neutral' exposure for those settings.
For 100% control you need to have the flash in manual as well, so you can fix the output.

 

[Phil V]

For 100% control you need to have the flash in manual as well, so you can fix the output.

But do you need ‘100% control’.

Most of the time event photographers will be running and gunning, and if we’re bouncing flash there’s no time to be manually calculating flash distances on the fly*. For this scenario, Manual on camera and TTL flash is perfect, with rare tweaks to flash output using FEC if desired.

However the instant flash to subject distance becomes a constant, then Manual flash is definitely an advantage.

*I’ve experience of going from flash bounced off a wall to flash bounced off a ceiling to hand held flash held wide pointed directly at the subject all within 5 minutes, and looking up zoom charts and doing those calculations would be a nightmare, ETTL does that without missing a beat.

 

[woof woof]

I know nothing and doubly so about flash and I'm only reading this because I'm waiting for someone...

Excuses made

As a way to rescue an existing picture what I thought of was simply selecting the background and changing the wb to taste.



Takes seconds. Sorry if that's not good enough or didn't help.

 

[Faldrax]

But do you need ‘100% control’.

Most of the time event photographers will be running and gunning, and if we’re bouncing flash there’s no time to be manually calculating flash distances on the fly*. For this scenario, Manual on camera and TTL flash is perfect, with rare tweaks to flash output using FEC if desired.

However the instant flash to subject distance becomes a constant, then Manual flash is definitely an advantage.

*I’ve experience of going from flash bounced off a wall to flash bounced off a ceiling to hand held flash held wide pointed directly at the subject all within 5 minutes, and looking up zoom charts and doing those calculations would be a nightmare, ETTL does that without missing a beat.

Totally agree - part of the 'technical' understanding of photography is knowing when to use the various options the camera offers - the camera is capable of making calculations and adjusting settings far faster than a person can, so when you know the camera will come up with the same answer as you would then let it to the work, so you as the photographer can concentrate on the bits the camera can't do - composition, interaction with the subject, timing, etc.

 

[sk66]

Not quite - You are setting the Aperture, Shutter and ISO - the CAMERA is then using those to determine how much power it thinks the flash needs to output to obtain a 'neutral' exposure for those settings.
For 100% control you need to have the flash in manual as well, so you can fix the output.

That's a lot like the debate of whether or not you are in control if you shoot in aperture priority mode. There are overrides for most things and ways to make the camera choose different settings. So if you are monitoring the choices the camera makes, and adjusting them as necessary to get the results you want, then you are in control. Will the camera get it 100% right every time; nope, and neither will I.

The main benefit of full manual everything is that it is just easier (in situations that allow for it).

 

[LC2]

I know nothing and doubly so about flash and I'm only reading this because I'm waiting for someone...

Excuses made

As a way to rescue an existing picture what I thought of was simply selecting the background and changing the wb to taste.

View attachment 406485

Takes seconds. Sorry if that's not good enough or didn't help.

I agree, it's something that can work though I'm not sure it only takes seconds (especially when the mask needs work).
But when you could be trying to get through a couple of thousand shots from a weekend, attempting to get it right in camera and reduce the additional work was the aim

 

[woof woof]

I agree, it's something that can work though I'm not sure it only takes seconds (especially when the mask needs work).
But when you could be trying to get through a couple of thousand shots from a weekend, attempting to get it right in camera and reduce the additional work was the aim

I know this doesn't solve your lighting problem but if you have existing pictures with a background warmth you don't like doing something may be better than living with something you are obviously not happy with. A few seconds gets the above, two button presses and the movement of one slider, but only you know what work will be needed to make you happy.

Hope you do get the lighting sorted.

 

[LC2]

Hope you do get the lighting sorted.

Well, this weekend I just used a black background

 

[Phil V]

Totally agree - part of the 'technical' understanding of photography is knowing when to use the various options the camera offers - the camera is capable of making calculations and adjusting settings far faster than a person can, so when you know the camera will come up with the same answer as you would then let it to the work, so you as the photographer can concentrate on the bits the camera can't do - composition, interaction with the subject, timing, etc.

I’ve posted my camera setup before, it literally leaves me only to control:
Focus - with AF on either by moving the focus point for single point, or holding the * for eye focus.
Aperture to control DoF
Exp comp as required.

Everything else is auto within my set parameters. And obviously I sometimes use shutter priority instead of Aperture priority.

When I shoot flash, I have C1 set with my basic settings, my flash controller and various flashes set to suit the transmitter means I can go from a single camera mounted flash to multiple static lights with a couple of button presses.

I appreciate that it takes a bit of knowledge to understand how to get here, but it means I never have to think about the picture taking process, so I can concentrate on the important stuff (subject, composition, light).