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ZappBrannigan

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Hi all, ty for admitting me to this trove of knowledge.

I'm about to make the leap into paid work - whereas prior i've refused all payment but accepted the odd envelope with the givers refusal to accept it back. Thus I'm looking for some advice or opinions before I fall completely down the tism rabbit hole and waste hours on end with no outcome.

Aim - to shoot with a semi mobile studio (where mains power is always available...) using a 6x7 hilite. Family portraits, children, toddlers that sort of thing.

Currently I use some random bit of white vinyl as a train (as the genuine one is £££) and 4 speedlights - TT685's with a Godox X1T - 2 in the hilite using old camera tripods, one in a small octabox on a light stand (it's not really big enough but I make do mostly) and one for fill using a diffuser dome. It works, but the major downside is recharge time - even with fresh good AA's - power wise the two lights in the hilite are often pretty high, and as i've come from a crop background I'm pretty anti bumping the iso - I also have the occasional issues with colour cast from lights in homes where there's no enough ambient light to work with.


So it's time for studio lights... on a budget


Options on the table so far are all mains powered, as I don't think I can stretch to battery powered lights (though would hate to have to buy them later)

New -3 x Godox SK400's or MS300's - will fire off my current trigger though I'll need to get stands and probably a bigger octabox

Used - Where to start? I've been offered 3 Lencarta smartflash II's along with stands etc. They're only 200w. Cost wise it's less than the lights alone above but I'd need to add triggers - 1 for the key and one for hilite (either Y split cable to the 2nd light or relying on it firing optically off the other. Positioning wise I often shoot in tight spaces and I'm not 100% convinced the optical trigger's would pick up the key light when they're semi buried in the hilite. They're also pretty old - with unknown usage on the tubes.


Appreciate wiser folks thoughts on the above - pro's, con's, other options etc. Fwiw I have a budget, this is a side gig but needs doing right, but the lower the better. TYIA
 
A few thoughts rather than actually answering your questions (sorry!)

- Just check that whatever you buy can turn down low enough. Some of the Godox lights are too bright for use in a small space. That can be bodged, of course, but bodging isn't ideal in front of paying customers
- It's useful to have more powerful lights since they will recycle faster at low power; it depends how you shoot
- Don't rely on optical triggering
- Don't rely on mains being available

I don't know your market but I'd hope that a single job or two would more than pay for a decent set of lights
Also: the requirement to light a Hilite adds 2 lights to the kit list which you may regret carrying about. If you can bin that your money will go further.

For the hilite: I'd suggest 5 Godox AD400 lights (one extra so you have a spare) plus the optional mains adapters for when you do have power, plus the remote head for at least one of them. They have good power range & recycle times.

I'd also suggest a spare trigger.

I imagine @Garry Edwards will be along in a bit to comment on the Smartflash lights; he helped design them.
 
juggler said:
A few thoughts rather than actually answering your questions (sorry!)

- Just check that whatever you buy can turn down low enough. Some of the Godox lights are too bright for use in a small space. That can be bodged, of course, but bodging isn't ideal in front of paying customers
- It's useful to have more powerful lights since they will recycle faster at low power; it depends how you shoot
- Don't rely on optical triggering
- Don't rely on mains being available

I don't know your market but I'd hope that a single job or two would more than pay for a decent set of lights
Also: the requirement to light a Hilite adds 2 lights to the kit list which you may regret carrying about. If you can bin that your money will go further.

For the hilite: I'd suggest 5 Godox AD400 lights (one extra so you have a spare) plus the optional mains adapters for when you do have power, plus the remote head for at least one of them. They have good power range & recycle times.

I'd also suggest a spare trigger.

I imagine @Garry Edwards will be along in a bit to comment on the Smartflash lights; he helped design them.
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Appreciate the response.

The older Godox SK lights drop to 1/16, about 25w - and judging by my usage of the TT685's will be too much, newer SK (and ms) versions do 1/32 which is not dissimilar to the power output I used the 685's at in smaller spaces - but here they'd be recycling at their fastest rate, whereas my speedlights struggled. I don't need high FPS but the abiltiy not to have to wait between clicks will help. Optical triggering is as I thought - missing the odd shot on a shoot for a friend would be annoying, on a paid shoot a killer.

Mains VS battery is definitely a consideration - as well as the no mains situation the lack of cables is a big plus for when I'm shooting children, along with ease of setting up. Cost however is key. AD400's are a no go, it's £2k plus, then stands etc on top. I actually mix neewer and godox speedlights, and know some neewer will fire off the godox x trigger and they have an interesting model, the Q300 - 300w, no HSS or TTL (which is fine) but they would probably mean changing my trigger - not a deal breaker, and I could manage with 3 if i can ditch the fill for a bounce or continue with a speedlight. The Q300 is just over half the price of the AD300.

I've been reading Garry's posts here already, so ty for tagging him in. The massive plus for the lencarta set-up is cost
 
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Garry isn't very available at present, so his tutorials etc may have to suffice for a while I'm afraid. I'm sure he'll chip in as soon as he's back.
 
The only people who really use mains powered lights now are those who have their own studios, so that there are no issues with cabling but also PAT.

Battery-powered is 100% the direction to go.

I'd dip your toes in the water with a couple of Godox AD200s. There are at least 15 on sale at MPB for £224 per unit, which is pretty good, or you
could shave a few quid off on Ebay but won't get the guarantee.

200w/s is plenty powerful enough for the type of thing that you are talking about.

Being brutally honest, I'd suggest selling the HILight.

a) It would probably fund one of the AD200s if it's in decent nick.

b) That style is seriously old hat and you can achieve the look far more cheaply with a Lastolite reversible (preferably White/Grey) and two of the 685's that you've got - and that would be far more energy/battery efficient.
 
DemiLion said:
The only people who really use mains powered lights now are those who have their own studios, so that there are no issues with cabling but also PAT.

Battery-powered is 100% the direction to go.

I'd dip your toes in the water with a couple of Godox AD200s. There are at least 15 on sale at MPB for £224 per unit, which is pretty good, or you
could shave a few quid off on Ebay but won't get the guarantee.

200w/s is plenty powerful enough for the type of thing that you are talking about.

Being brutally honest, I'd suggest selling the HILight.

a) It would probably fund one of the AD200s if it's in decent nick.

b) That style is seriously old hat and you can achieve the look far more cheaply with a Lastolite reversible (preferably White/Grey) and two of the 685's that you've got - and that would be far more energy/battery efficient.
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I do have studio space... at weekends. I hadn't considered PAT tbh though usually leave any mains gear of mine at work when stuff gets done there. I am leaning more into battery powered lights though. FWIW the Hilite is near mint but i've seen quite a few fetching relatively little used so when factor in selling it and buying new I don't think it'd free much funds. Appreciate the suggestion though.



Just an additional consideration (i've only ever worked with speedlites) - flash duration. When I shoot with the hilite I almost exclusively dial out ambient light, and use the flash to stop motion and achieve the lighting I want. Never had any blur with the speedlites but i'm reading voltage controlled AC strobes won't be fast enough - take the MS300 - it's sloweset duration is at max power and 1/800s. Being as that is effectively replacing the shutter speed to stop motion I'm intrigued it's not enough - 1/1000 - 1/1250 would be safest and tbh i'm most likley to be shooting with the flashes much lower than full power. IGBT AC strobes new are costly and overlap battery powered territory.
 
ZappBrannigan said:
Never had any blur with the speedlites but i'm reading voltage controlled AC strobes won't be fast enough - take the MS300 - it's sloweset duration is at max power and 1/800s.
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I believe that with voltage controlled flash, the shorter durations are at higher power settings (counterintuitively). With IGBT the more logical applies (longer durations higher power).

4 AD200’s would be massively better than speedlights. Maybe with an AD400 as keylight to fill a larger softbox instead.

However; you could add external battery packs to your speedlights to significantly improve flash recycle times which would be loads better than using 4 AA’s.
 
The whole T1/T5 area is definitely a 'Garry'# subject.

However is just strengthens my argument for an AD200 or similar.

As for sales price, the Highlights that I've seen flogged have gone for £150-200, size dependent.
 
Phil V said:
However; you could add external battery packs to your speedlights to significantly improve flash recycle times which would be loads better than using 4 AA’s.
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That's true. PB960's are still available, which is why, IMO, TT685's have a massive advantage over the Li-ion powered units because, with a pack, their recycling time is much, much faster.

But no one with a V1 or V860 would admit that!
 
Here’s my thoughts in a more logical order.

Option 1 (AA and lithium)
Keep the speed lights in the hilite, but add PB960 battery packs for the recycle times (notwithstanding, I’m no fan of the hilite look)*
Then add AD200s for the key light and fill, all done without complication of receivers.

Option 2 (mains)
Search eBay for DE300’s, SK400’s or similar, they’re cheap (<£100 per head) , easier, (no battery considerations) but you will have to consider cable management. And you can get receivers for all the more recent Godox heads that’ll work with your current transmitter.

Option 3 (lithium)
2x AD200’s for the hilite, and either a couple more AD200s or AD300 or bigger for the key and fill.

Additionally I’ll add, you should buy Lencarta light stands, they’re amazing value. I think the low level Lencarta stands will work for the flashes in the hilite, but if you stick with speed lights then a couple of dirt cheap stands will do.

The easiest and cheapest big modifier is the brolly box, all the ease of a reflecting brolly, with 80% the functionality of an octabox.

* you understand better than us what it is you’re hoping to achieve, and you know how the hilite is working for you.

Just another note, even with speed lights, when shooting reasonable ISO’s and at sync speed, you shouldn’t get anywhere close to getting indoor ambient light spoiling your images, indeed my view is I would have to alter settings to invite in the ambient if I felt I needed it.
 
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What aperture, ISO and power settings are you typically using, and which flashes are holding you up?

Before replacing everything, it might be worth trying a modest ISO increase. Raising ISO from 100 to 400 lets you drop the flashes by two stops at the same aperture, which should help recycling considerably. You'd need to check that the room lighting still isn't contributing enough to cause colour casts or movement blur.

You also don't necessarily need four matching lights. If the speedlights in the HiLite are the bottleneck, I'd upgrade those first and keep using the others for key and fill.
 
Phil V said:
.....

Option 2 (mains)
Search eBay for DE300’s, SK400’s or similar, they’re cheap (<£100 per head) , easier, (no battery considerations) but you will have to consider cable management. And you can get receivers for all the more recent Godox heads that’ll work with your current transmitter.

.....
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The MS300v can be bought new (removing any concerns over condition 2nd hand strobes), and have the receiver built in - they're a bit more expensive (£115), but you save on the receiver and have an LED modelling light (rather than traditional bulb) so might be a simpler option if going the mains route.
 
Faldrax said:
The MS300v can be bought new (removing any concerns over condition 2nd hand strobes), and have the receiver built in - they're a bit more expensive (£115), but you save on the receiver and have an LED modelling light (rather than traditional bulb) so might be a simpler option if going the mains route.
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They're pretty much top of my list for AC strobes - power wise they''' outperform my speedlites comfortably and they're inexpensive enough not to have to eat a chunk replacing or augmenting with battery strobes down the line.

Question around flash duration still matters though - it seems godox list t.5 durations, and they're at the shortest at the highest power - so if i'm using them at lower power settings I might struggle with faster moving subjects.

Pandster1981 said:
Depends on whether you’re looking at battery or mains power but if you go mains I’ve got some Godox/Pixapro strobes plus some modifiers for sale at
https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/home-studio-gear-for-sale.775840/
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Access denied - presumably as i'm a new member. If you want to DM info (assuming that's allowed) I might be.
 
ZappBrannigan said:
Question around flash duration still matters though - it seems godox list t.5 durations, and they're at the shortest at the highest power - so if i'm using them at lower power settings I might struggle with faster moving subjects.
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What speed do you need? Have you tested to be sure?
 
TimHughes said:
What speed do you need? Have you tested to be sure?
Click to expand...

Good question - it's never been an issue with the speedlites even at 1/1 or close to it (which is 1/300 duration iirc and where the hilite lights can be at) - though I do have a need to shoot faster moving little ones - for which I'd definately want to be in the 1/1000 area. Of course at those high powers refresh times are awful.

TimHughes said:
What aperture, ISO and power settings are you typically using, and which flashes are holding you up?

Before replacing everything, it might be worth trying a modest ISO increase. Raising ISO from 100 to 400 lets you drop the flashes by two stops at the same aperture, which should help recycling considerably. You'd need to check that the room lighting still isn't contributing enough to cause colour casts or movement blur.

You also don't necessarily need four matching lights. If the speedlights in the HiLite are the bottleneck, I'd upgrade those first and keep using the others for key and fill.
Click to expand...

All the lights hold me up, though the two in the hilite are at the highest power and don't fire most often, key very occasionally and means new batteries time. Fill almost never.

I started with an a100 (which i still shoot for giggles occasionally) and raising the iso, coupled with sw options back then, was mostly a no no for me. Moved to the a68 which in good light I could push the iso a little, but still not much for my liking. Now shoot FF with the a73 and iso performance isn't what it was made out to be imo, though i'm far off qualified to comment. It's a fair point, and not one i've considered tbh - I'll pop the set-up over the weekend if I can and test. Two stops should make a chunk of difference, and just replacing the 2 lights in the hilite is an option on the table. Ty
 
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ZappBrannigan said:
Good question - it's never been an issue with the speedlites even at 1/1 or close to it (which is 1/300 duration iirc and where the hilite lights can be at) - though I do have a need to shoot faster moving little ones - for which I'd definately want to be in the 1/1000 area. Of course at those high powers refresh times are awful.



All the lights hold me up, though the two in the hilite are at the highest power and don't fire most often, key very occasionally and means new batteries time. Fill almost never.

I started with an a100 (which i still shoot for giggles occasionally) and raising the iso, coupled with sw options back then, was mostly a no no for me. Moved to the a68 which in good light I could push the iso a little, but still not much for my liking. Now shoot FF with the a73 and iso performance isn't what it was made out to be imo, though i'm far off qualified to comment. It's a fair point, and not one i've considered tbh - I'll pop the set-up over the weekend if I can and test. Two stops should make a chunk of difference, and just replacing the 2 lights in the hilite is an option on the table. Ty
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Could you separate these two requirements? Assuming the HiLite lights aren’t spilling significantly onto the children, their flash duration shouldn’t matter much for freezing movement. It’s the key and fill that matter for that, no?

From what you’ve described, the background lights are struggling most with recycling, while the key generally keeps up and the fill almost always does. Maybe you could replace just the background pair with inexpensive mains heads and keep the speedlights on the children for their short flash duration? Perhaps try the higher ISO first and see what still needs fixing.
 
TimHughes said:
Could you separate these two requirements? Assuming the HiLite lights aren’t spilling significantly onto the children, their flash duration shouldn’t matter much for freezing movement. It’s the key and fill that matter for that, no?

From what you’ve described, the background lights are struggling most with recycling, while the key generally keeps up and the fill almost always does. Maybe you could replace just the background pair with inexpensive mains heads and keep the speedlights on the children for their short flash duration? Perhaps try the higher ISO first and see what still needs fixing.
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I was thinking the same.
As regards ISO, an A7iii should be absolutely fine at ISO 400 - but due to the dual gain sensor, is (according to the charts) virtually the same sat ISO 800 as ISO 400 (the dual gain kicks in at ISO 640, so that would be the sweet spot if you are going over ISO 200).
My A7iv has similar noise and DR profiles (the newer sensor gain is offset by the increase in resolution), and I find I get usable results at ISO 12800 (but obviously shoot lower if I can).
 
ZappBrannigan said:
though I do have a need to shoot faster moving little ones
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Can you be a little more specific?
In a studio setting I’ve never given any thought to subject movement, the flash just handles it.

And when shooting people in ambient (not actually doing sports) I have a minimum shutter speed of 1/250 that’s always fast enough for static kids. (As static as kids can be)

Of course if you’re shooting dance, or gymnastic poses there may be further considerations, that’s why I posted that you’d know if you had specialist requirements.
 
DemiLion said:
The only people who really use mains powered lights now are those who have their own studios, so that there are no issues with cabling but also PAT.

Battery-powered is 100% the direction to go.
Click to expand...

I used a studio a few times which was entirely battery. It made life so much easier even indoors; I now mainly use batteries in my own.

DemiLion said:
I'd dip your toes in the water with a couple of Godox AD200s. There are at least 15 on sale at MPB for £224 per unit, which is pretty good, or you
could shave a few quid off on Ebay but won't get the guarantee.

200w/s is plenty powerful enough for the type of thing that you are talking about.

Being brutally honest, I'd suggest selling the HILight.

a) It would probably fund one of the AD200s if it's in decent nick.

b) That style is seriously old hat and you can achieve the look far more cheaply with a Lastolite reversible (preferably White/Grey) and two of the 685's that you've got - and that would be far more energy/battery efficient.
Click to expand...

The AD200s are great but the non-standard modifiers & need to use a bracket will get annoying, esp if he's using lots of lights.
But seconded: bin the HiLight

Phil V said:
Can you be a little more specific?
In a studio setting I’ve never given any thought to subject movement, the flash just handles it.

And when shooting people in ambient (not actually doing sports) I have a minimum shutter speed of 1/250 that’s always fast enough for static kids. (As static as kids can be)

Of course if you’re shooting dance, or gymnastic poses there may be further considerations, that’s why I posted that you’d know if you had specialist requirements.
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I shoot a fair bit of dance & gymnastics & I have some short flash duration heads for really dynamic stuff. I rarely need them; timing & skill mainly do the job.
 
juggler said:
I used a studio a few times which was entirely battery. It made life so much easier even indoors; I now mainly use batteries in my own.
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Well, yes. That would be my preference as well. But it's a totally different point.


The AD200s are great but the non-standard modifiers & need to use a bracket will get annoying, esp if he's using lots of lights.
But seconded: bin the HiLight
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A conversion bracket for Bowens S mount costs 23 quid and is pisch easy to use.

They also allow you to use the frankly excellent AD-S7's mounted directly. Which, for a lightweight mobile solution is the dog's danglies!
 
TimHughes said:
Could you separate these two requirements? Assuming the HiLite lights aren’t spilling significantly onto the children, their flash duration shouldn’t matter much for freezing movement. It’s the key and fill that matter for that, no?

From what you’ve described, the background lights are struggling most with recycling, while the key generally keeps up and the fill almost always does. Maybe you could replace just the background pair with inexpensive mains heads and keep the speedlights on the children for their short flash duration? Perhaps try the higher ISO first and see what still needs fixing.
Click to expand...

This is a good point, and something to mull over - especially with the external power for the TT685s

Pandster1981 said:
I’m pretty sure that bypassing the trading rules in this way would be against forum rules.
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Understood, and I suspected that might be so. I can't see the market place for 30 days it seems and thus no use for me. The paid shoot is mid Nov so too tight.

Phil V said:
Can you be a little more specific?
In a studio setting I’ve never given any thought to subject movement, the flash just handles it.

And when shooting people in ambient (not actually doing sports) I have a minimum shutter speed of 1/250 that’s always fast enough for static kids. (As static as kids can be)

Of course if you’re shooting dance, or gymnastic poses there may be further considerations, that’s why I posted that you’d know if you had specialist requirements.
Click to expand...

As noted, motion blur has never been an issue with the speedlites. I'll be shooting preschool aged children from time to time, and with that children with SEND - who for some physically walking across the 'set' is a major plus - and sometimes whilst doing so they'll be moving pretty quickly including stimming. Missing a shot, or having shot's blurred would be a major issue and indeed is the feedback from clients.
 
ZappBrannigan said:
This is a good point, and something to mull over - especially with the external power for the TT685s



Understood, and I suspected that might be so. I can't see the market place for 30 days it seems and thus no use for me. The paid shoot is mid Nov so too tight.



As noted, motion blur has never been an issue with the speedlites. I'll be shooting preschool aged children from time to time, and with that children with SEND - who for some physically walking across the 'set' is a major plus - and sometimes whilst doing so they'll be moving pretty quickly including stimming. Missing a shot, or having shot's blurred would be a major issue and indeed is the feedback from clients.
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Honestly 1/250 is for people who may be unaware they’re having their pictures taken and it’s plenty for freezing movement. I don’t believe any flash duration is going to be an issue for kids. In carefully controlled environments I can shoot portraits at less than 1/30

It’s a lot of years since I shot kids full time, but 40 odd years of studio shooting kids for fun and I honestly don’t think flash duration is going to be an issue for you.

OTOH it does look like a cable free studio will be of great benefit.
 
My thoughts, in no particular order . . .

When Venture launched their high key white background, shadowless lighting back in the late 90’s it was an immediate success, and revolutionised portrait photography. Personally I hated it, but it worked for them. It was all about taking shots in a large space, with the lighting in fixed positions, and basically all that the photographer (camera operator) had to do was to work to a fixed routine.

But then everyone and their dog muscled in, often shooting in spaces far too small, and they started using the HiLite to compensate for lack of space, and the results were usually terrible. The HiLite itself was/is a good product, I had several of them in my commercial studio, side x side to produce massive softboxes, it is really just a good softbox. The problem was when people had the subjects far too close, or even touching the Hi-lite, creating massive destruction of fine detail.

If you feel that you have a market for that kind of photography, then I wish you luck with it, but as others have said, I think that it’s a bad choice, and life will be easier if you abandon that idea.

Lencarta SmartFlash 2 – old now, but still perfectly serviceable. I forget most of the specs, but it was typical of a flash of its time. At full power the flash duration, roughly equivalent to shutter speed using ambient light, is around 1000th second, at minimum power it was roughly equivalent to 1/300th second, more than enough to freeze normal portrait movement. And the power, 200 watt-seconds, is more than enough for your needs, and the recycling time is pretty good too. Concerns about power were always outdated, people who shot on film may find it a bit low, but with digital, just adjust the iso to suit – changing the iso from 100 to 400 will, in effect, increase the power from 200 to 800 watt-seconds and nobody will notice any difference in image quality.

The SmartFlash 2, using the old-school technology, was about 300K warmer at minimum power than at full power, better than most, and frankly the warmer results usually look better in portrait photography, so not something to worry about. New technology (IGBT) flashes such as the AD200 have less colour variation, but you pay a high additional price for something that I don’t think matters at all.

The Godox MS300 is roughly equivalent, or you could go for old Bowens flashes, bigger and heavier but very well-made, it really doesn’t matter, and if you aren’t prepared to spend a few bob on the right lighting your idea simply won’t work.

Flashguns have their uses, but are totally unsuitable for your purpose. It isn’t just slow recycling, it’s the fact that they have non-removable reflectors and they don’t work as well as people expect when fitted with modifiers. Forget them!

Camera shutter speed – use the fastest one that works 100% with your camera.
ZappBrannigan said:
I also have the occasional issues with colour cast from lights in homes where there's no enough ambient light to work with.
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It’s pure amateurville to either use the ambient lighting in customers’ homes or to allow it to create a colour cast, and using the fastest shutter speed possible, and using a fairly small f/number with the lighting set fairly high will kill that problem

Triggers – if you go for the “Venture” look then only one flash head should need to be triggered remotely, all others should work fine as slaves. That may change if you go for more creative photography, but time will tell.

Hope this helps, please come back with any questions. Due to health issues my ability to reply is limited, but if I can’t then there are plenty of other people who can
 
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