Beginner Mode Dial - Priority

I have a very green garden actually and fields beyond, I was just having a laugh. Thanks for the suggestion, so much to learn. So did you all start out reading Terry's book?
It was already old when I started photography in '77.

I did read various texts and magazines back then, but there is so much more relevant and easier accessed material available nowadays.
 
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^ For 'Richard' read 'Ken' :cool:
Bugger,
It was already old when I started photography in '77.

I did read various texts and magazines back then, but there is so much more relevant and easier accessed material available nowadays.
this^

2 of my first 3 cameras were manual only, the world started going digital before I got my first AF camera.

But if I was learning today... It'd be awesome and cost a damn sight less in time and money.
 
Personally, I think that *for learning* what everything does using full manual is the way to go.
Others feel that using various modes first is more of a "crawl/walk/run" approach... but I think it tends to be more confusing because you are only changing one thing but the camera is changing multiple other things that you may be unaware of. And there is a tendency to "get comfortable" with a mode and never really progress beyond it.

I think many take it for granted because we learned w/ full manual cameras... there was no other option. Either way, what is important is that you learn how everything interacts and how it affects the results creatively/technically. Once you get there, do whatever works best for you and is the easiest... and sometimes, that can be full manual.
 
That book helped me enormously that's all.

My dad got me my first camera, a Canon TX when I was 13 or so.
Took photography as one of my options at school and started to develop and print my own b&w.
Got a darkroom kit for my 16th birthday and painted the spare bedroom Matt black.

That's my humble beginnings.
 
That book helped me enormously that's all.

My dad got me my first camera, a Canon TX when I was 13 or so.
Took photography as one of my options at school and started to develop and print my own b&w.
Got a darkroom kit for my 16th birthday and painted the spare bedroom Matt black.

That's my humble beginnings.


I wish I could have done photography at school, I don't remember there being anything that interesting.

It must have been so different not being able to see how a picture was going to turn out until it was developed, real trial and error process.
 
At first yes. But I eventually was able to successfully able to guess the grade of paper needed and exposure by looking at the negative.
If you do b&w enough you eventually are able to "see" in monochrome. At least you'd know how the photo would look .

Great days and wouldn't change them for the world.
 
I find that with film, I know what I'm going to get. With a digital camera, the playback doesn't tell me anything other than that the shutter fired, and I don't actually know what I've got until I've downloaded the results. Digital is trial and error to me :).
 
Personally, I think that *for learning* what everything does using full manual is the way to go.
Others feel that using various modes first is more of a "crawl/walk/run" approach... but I think it tends to be more confusing because you are only changing one thing but the camera is changing multiple other things that you may be unaware of. And there is a tendency to "get comfortable" with a mode and never really progress beyond it.

I think many take it for granted because we learned w/ full manual cameras... there was no other option. Either way, what is important is that you learn how everything interacts and how it affects the results creatively/technically. Once you get there, do whatever works best for you and is the easiest... and sometimes, that can be full manual.


I wasn't going to say I'm using full manual as that option didn't go down so well earlier in the thread. But yeah, I've been thinking exactly the same as you, I don't think I can learn about this stuff unless I have to do it all myself. I'm not doing it to show off or think I'm being clever, I just want to learn how to fully control the camera. If the camera is setting the shutter speed for me I realise I can see what it's doing, but the camera is not getting it wrong. If I can get it wrong - the picture looks terrible or is non-existent (plenty of those so far!) then I can work out what im doing and what I need to do to get it right. I'm sure lots will think this is a bad idea, but I want to give it a good go for now.

So yes I'm using the camera in full manual mode, and it's making sense now - I can see the impact of changing one setting on the picture.

What I don't understand - and I'm hoping someone might help me with - is there like a set of default settings that you would all go to? Say for example a bright sunny day outside and you are taking a portrait shot, would you all automatically set ISO to 100, shutter speed to 125 and aperture to F13? Or are there sort of ideal (ish) settings that you'd start with and then tweak to get the perfect picture? I'm just wondering how I'm going to know what to set everything to each time I go to take a picture. I'm assuming that with practice I just get to know what will work and where everything needs to be - is that about right?

The ISO - I've taken it off 'automatic' too and been changing it depending on where I was taking the picture. What I don't get is if I leave it in automatic what is the camera doing to know where to set ISO to? Is it always right? How does it know? I guess I'm wondering if there's a calculation it's doing. I'm not sure if it matters, but I think it might help me to understand more about the camera and photography. Would you guys control the ISO or have it in automatic? Also is the ISO one of the settings you'd tweak least in a session? Once you got it right for the lighting would it stay at that setting unless the lighting changed?

I've assigned the flash pop-up button to the ISO screen so I can adjust it quicker, and from the very first picture I took I was using Back Button Focus as I've read plenty of times how it's the best way. I assumed that if that's how I learnt to use the camera it would come more naturally rather than learn to use the shutter release button half way and then at some point in the future change to Back Button Focus. As I've never really done it any other way it comes naturally to me already on picking up the camera, so I'm glad I did that.

I've been playing around with the settings, I've not done anything dramatic but I turned the 'bleep' off (how annoying is that!) and assigned a couple of buttons as above. I changed the focus points I can see in the viewfinder so that just the middle one illuminates now, is that OK to do? It wasn't making sense that the camera was focusing on something I wasn't really aiming at, so I thought it would give me more control. Am I right, or have I messed with something I shouldn't?

Image quality - I have it set to RAW + L jpeg (the highest setting I think). Is that where I should keep it?

ISO again - there is an option to increase it to 6400 from 3200 - I'm guessing because it's not the best of cameras I'm better off leaving it at 3200? As the option to go to 6400 is buried in the menu settings I assumed it wasn't ideal for the camera.

I've not even considered looking at the histogram display. I've seen how to make it show with a pic, and I've seen it talked about a lot on here, I'm guessing this is really advanced stuff and I shouldn't worry about it right now? Or would it help me to learn how to read them? I had a quick glance but it meant nothing.

Lastly - the 'AF operation' setting, I have options for 'One Shot', 'AI Focus' and 'AI Servo'. It's on 'one shot', I haven't googled this and I know I should, I just wondered if I was best to just leave it on One Shot. The manual doesn't go into details for any of the settings really, it's more interested in telling me how to use it to shoot videos and use the camera in Live View mode, so I'm having to read up on each setting or have a good guess.
 
At first yes. But I eventually was able to successfully able to guess the grade of paper needed and exposure by looking at the negative.
If you do b&w enough you eventually are able to "see" in monochrome. At least you'd know how the photo would look .

Great days and wouldn't change them for the world.


This is probably a stupid question, but is it best to take a pic in B&W (I'm guessing the camera will have a setting somewhere, thighs I've not seen it so far) or is it all done by editing the pictures these days? I love B&W images, especially for portraits. To date I've just used an iPhone app (Lenka) if I wanted B&W images as they always came out so much nicer on the phone.
 
I find that with film, I know what I'm going to get. With a digital camera, the playback doesn't tell me anything other than that the shutter fired, and I don't actually know what I've got until I've downloaded the results. Digital is trial and error to me :).


So do you think the screen doesn't give enough detail or is it just really innacurate? I've looked at the screen after pics to see how they were looking (I've made it hold the last image for 8 seconds as by the time my eyes focussed they were gone!) but really I'm just looking to see if there is a pic, is it in focus and is it too light or dark.
 
Use the histogram for correct exposure. Focussing will only show up on a monitor.
Don't shoot in b&w. Shoot in raw and convert later if you want to.
 
What I don't understand - and I'm hoping someone might help me with - is there like a set of default settings that you would all go to?
A lot of questions... I'll give it a quick go.
Yes, there is a "rule" for exposure called the sunny 16 rule... it says that on a bright sunny day (hard shadows) when the aperture is set to f/16 the ISO and SS will/should match. And then there are adjustments from there for lower light situations. But there is no reason to learn/apply that rule these days.

In general, the best image quality will come from using the lowest (numbered) ISO because it requires the camera to collect the most *actual* light/information. But the best image quality does not mean the best image, or your desired image, so you choose settings based upon priorities and (usually) compromises.
It starts with the simple question, "is the subject moving or stationary?"
If it is moving then the first priority must be SS, do you want to freeze motion or do you want motion blur?
If it is not moving then the first priority should be aperture, do you want the sharpest image possible, do you want the greatest DOF possible, or do you want the shallowest DOF possible?

Once the primary factor (SS or Aperture) is decided upon, then the other two remaining factors are balanced against each other. In the moving subject situation the question is "are you willing to use a higher ISO in order to get a smaller sharper aperture w/ more DOF (and do you need to)?" In the second scenario the question is "are you willing to use a higher ISO in order to get a faster SS (and do you need to)?" Knowing that in both cases there will be some loss of maximum image quality because you are recording less actual light...

For me, ISO is the least important factor of the three... it only determines technical quality considerations like noise, dynamic range, color depth. But aperture and SS determine what an image is/conveys.

The camera always adjusts ISO (or whatever it is in control of) in order to make the light meter zero out/happy... the same thing you do (initially) when in manual. But the meter isn't always right.

http://photographic-academy.com/exposure
 
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Thanks Terry - I thought it probably was best to make B&W by editing. Going to have to get a computer at some point, I've just used an iPad for the last few years.

Thanks for the advice and explanations Steven. It is all slowly making sense, I understand what each aspect does, it's getting them to work together, adjusting one to compensate for another - but that's the practice part I guess.

I was on the right track with the ISO I think, I set it for the scene and then pretty much leave it. I do check to see what the camera sets it to if I put ISO back to auto so I can see if I was close.

I need to go and photograph some more interesting things tomorrow, I'm bored of wandering round the garden and house and I have far too many pics of cows and sheep on the farm - if I ever get arrested the police are going to think it's some kind of strange fetish! I might head down to a fishing village, bit more interesting I think.
 
So do you think the screen doesn't give enough detail or is it just really innacurate? I've looked at the screen after pics to see how they were looking (I've made it hold the last image for 8 seconds as by the time my eyes focussed they were gone!) but really I'm just looking to see if there is a pic, is it in focus and is it too light or dark.

Several points really.

First, the screen reflects the jpg not the raw file, so highlights might be blown on screen but not in reality (the same applies to the histogram on the camera as it reflects the jpg with its inherently lower ability to record an extended brightness range) assuming you're recording a raw file as well.

Second, I can't tell if the subject is in focus. It looks sharp on the screen, but see it at full size (meaning on a monitor, not necessarily at 100%) and focus can be off. This is one thing that puts me off DSLRs, the inability to accurately manual focus and the fact that for my type of photography I have to fight the autofocus which usually gets it wrong. The Sony a7r/rii with focus magnifier is far better, and I always use manual focus lenses. Very few people will agree with me on this one, but it's my experience. DSLR screens are designed for brightness, not for focusing because everyone uses autofocus. I have many photos taken with a Minolta 7D which are out of focus, but sharp on the screen at the time. In fact, I could alter the focus on the lens and see no difference at all on screen.

Third, I can't see the details well enough. Both before and after releasing the shutter. With my "normal" cameras, I'm working with them tripod mounted, so I can watch the subject with my own eyes and release the shutter with a cable release. And the bigger screens make composition and focusing simple. Bluntly, I don't work well with cameras used at eye level.

And finally, I can't tell from the screen if highlights are blown because they're too small. This is a combination of 1 and 3, because the histogram can't be relied on and the details are too small to make out. It's also been my experience (with an Olympus E3) that highlights blow very easily, and I've failed to hold detail at both ends of the scale where there would be no problem at all with film. The Sony a7r is far better in this respect.

Now much of this is subjective, and isn't in many cases a pro-film anti-digital post. Pro film camera designs and anti digital camera monoculture designs yes... On the other hand, in my experience, black and white film is better at recording extremes of subject brightness, and means that I don't have to worry. And perhaps I've been unlucky in my choice of digital camera - but they are my wife's, because I don't actually own one.
 
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On black and white - there are a few recent threads on that topic, including one in the film and conventional section.
 
For completeness:
2 of my first 3 cameras were fully manual old school mechanical. That's how I learned as did many others.

However, if I was learning again tomorrow, would I go through the same pain? All those thousands of lost opportunities because I'd mis loaded film misfocussed or completely ballsed up the exposure?

My recommendation is to grasp all the advancements that technology has brought with both hands.

Your camera, just like my Praktica MTL5 is simply a picture taking machine, we have to learn to use the machine to create the image we want to keep.

Whilst you're obsessing about 'settings' simply to get a well exposed image, you're missing the important stuff.

Like choosing what your camera focusses on. You don't need to focus manually, AF cameras aren't very good at that. Knowing the sunny 16 rule is great, but learning what makes a focal length flattering and why, how much DoF is required for a headshot, and how light reflects off subjects, why shadows change etc are all much more useful for making the pictures you want to make.

Let the camera do the stuff it's good at, and you can get on with learning about where it'll make mistakes and how to create images.
 
I'm sorry but this is exactly the sort of advice to avoid o_O (it seems to say a lot but actually says nothing)

Your meter won't give you 'what you want' no matter whether you're in PAS or M. M will no more guarantee the shot than the others, its not about 'manual being hard', it's about learning the important parts first - and shooting Manually if all you're doing is chasing the meter is a fools errand. So what will help

Understanding what your meter is saying and what you need to manipulate to get the shot.

But as Richard said in the first post - learn to see light and about composition, it's a far more useful skill.

Understanding what your meter is saying and what you need to manipulate to get the shot.

A bit like manual mode?

Why such negativity to a very useful mode? No sense.
 
It's not big and it's not clever...

Phil speaks a lot of sense.
If you want to make life difficult then go ahead, but why turn the clocks back?

Do you have a black and white TV? A clothes wringer?
 
Understanding what your meter is saying and what you need to manipulate to get the shot.

A bit like manual mode?

Why such negativity to a very useful mode? No sense.
Not really, because for lots of people using M and just chasing the meter is 'being in control' whereas using AV and exp comp is somehow not doing it properly. The reality is obviously the opposite.

I shoot in Manual plenty, but it's understanding 'why' that's missing for most newbies who need to learn 'manual' in order to be 'doing it properly'.

It's not about negativity, like I say there's a time and place for manual, it's about understanding rather than learning to use a 'mode'.
 
I think there's a bit of "confusion" occurring. There's a difference between learning what everything does and how to control/prioritize settings (i.e. manual mode) and actually operating in manual mode.
But I'm a firm believer that you cannot really be in control of the camera if you cannot operate in full manual, irrespective of what mode you are actually operating in. Might as well just jump in and get to grips with it.
That said, other things matter a whole lot as well; potentially even more... things like subject, composition, etc.
 
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Not really, because for lots of people using M and just chasing the meter is 'being in control' whereas using AV and exp comp is somehow not doing it properly. The reality is obviously the opposite.

I shoot in Manual plenty, but it's understanding 'why' that's missing for most newbies who need to learn 'manual' in order to be 'doing it properly'.

It's not about negativity, like I say there's a time and place for manual, it's about understanding rather than learning to use a 'mode'.

Exactly - why I said it shouldn't be ignored as a mode and suggested just to try it for a day.

Practice and experience.
 
Kind of wishing I'd never asked :confused:

I'm not trying to big or clever, I'm not here to brag about my amazing photos - because I'm not taking amazing photos. I'm just trying to learn what the ISO, aperture and shutter speed settings do and how the correlate. I'm most likely wrong and should be using Av mode and leaving camera to handle the ISO too, but I don't know how I'm learning why the camera is choosing the settings it's choosing, and what would happen if they were set to one stop either side. That's why I asked if their were rules you all learnt, or if you chose one setting and balanced the other two, or if you just instinctively knew what to set them too. I know it's all about practice, when I'm not caring for my disabled kids I'm reading, watching and spending time using the camera in different locations with different lighting conditions.

When the camera was controlling the ISO setting I could see the correlation with the shutter speed and aperture, but I didn't understand why it had chosen that setting. I know the answer is 'because it works' and it gives the correct exposure, but correct how, and what happens if it was set to something different? If I would learn more about the camera and how everything works by putting it in Av and letting the camera manage the ISO then I would, but will I really in the long run? This isn't rhetorical, would I learn more or not? If I would then I'll do it, and I can learn other stuff as there is still a lot to get my head round. I'm just worried that later I'll come unstuck and wish I'd learnt how to control it all manually.

I'm going to share my reasons for learning photography with you all, then you maybe can see my intentions are not all bad and I'm not here to brag. As I said from the beginning (my 'hello my name is Marc' post) I have disabled children. Three of them, and life is pretty tough. I've had to stop work to become a full time carer, and I've suffered with my mental health over the years. It gets to you, I worry every single day about their future, I won't live forever, and if it's from the physically exhausting caring or just bad luck m not sure, but I am also not well. I'm really hoping this doesn't mean I will die younger, but it might.

When I was forced to give up my career I decided to set up a project to help carers and disabled children. It started with me and a lot of hard work, and grew into a successful little charity. After 7 years I was physically exhausted and needed to get away as it was taking over a lot of my life so I moved down south to live in the middle of nowhere with my family and concentrate on them. But im bored, I need something in my life to stop me going insane.

The hardest stuff I ever had to deal with when I had the charity was supporting a parent when their child died. What the F do you say? It won't 'be alright', and you absolutely can't make it better. So I did what I was good at, raised a shed load of cash to give to the family to help make life a little bit easier. Holiday for the family, a car because their motability car had been snatched back by the insensitive people a few days after the child had passed away, help to pay for the funeral, or a headstone for their littlun. I didn't do it to look good, and I never got paid a penny or took expenses, I ran the charity because I could I guess, I wanted to help.

Moving to Devon I made friends with a family and then watched their total devastation as their little princess died too young. She had significant disabilities but everyone was hopeful she had many years ahead of her, sadly she got poorly and her illness took her life. I had nothing to say, I couldn't help, and I no longer had the ability to raise money to support them.

What I do know is they had very few lovely pictures of their little girl, and the same went for families I've known in the past. It's often a massive regret for families when they lose their child. Not all disabled children are poorly and have such a fragile life - my kids are healthy thankfully - but in my case getting a picture of my 13 year old son is virtually impossible. No way would he sit for a portrait shoot, the only pics I have of him are candid when he doesn't know anyone has a camera. He won't sit still for a second, and his understanding is too limited to bargain or bribe - he is non-verbal and doesn't understand much, if anything. This isn't unusual, most families with disabled children don't have 'nice' pictures of their kids, they can't get them to sit and they are not a priority - as families with disabled children we are too busy fighting the system and getting what we are entitled to. It's also an expensive luxury. Sadly this means for some of us that we just won't ever have nice pics of our kids, and if the worst was to happen then.... Well yea, you get the idea.

Lastly, working with disabled children is a constant challenge, you have to know how to communicate with them, some are non-verbal so you need to know Makaton (a basic form of sign language), you need to know how to entertain them, you need to be able to ask difficult questions of the parents. Do they want the scar hidden or displayed proudly, can they sit still or is that not possible, do they want the tubes in the picture? That's before you would get the camera out and know how to use that. Then there is lighting, some kids may having photosensitive epilepsy that mean flash photography could literally kill them. A lot of children will want to take the camera and play with it, or push the lights over, or climb into he big bag. This isn't usually a hyperactive toddler, this could be a 16 year old 6' 20 stone man who wants to sit on your lap and give you cuddles.

So I made a decision to learn how to take a half decent photograph so I could do something nice. I'm not setting up a business to make money from these families, I plan on setting myself up so I can give them lovely memories totally free of charge. I'm not competing with the professionals here as far as I'm aware, and I certainly wouldn't make out I was the best photographer. I've got a few families who have already agreed to let me take some pics of their kids when I'm ready in return for being able to show others the pics I've taken. It doesn't make for a great business model, no income and having your portfolio full of pics with disabilities, scars, birth defects and tubes coming from their faces isn't going to make someone want to book me for their wedding. And I just really don't care, I don't want to photograph weddings actually (as I tried to explain in a previous topic!), what I plan on doing is offering every single family in Devon with a child with special needs or a disability some photographs that they may not otherwise have the chance to own.

Please don't all tell me I can't do it yet, I'm not going to start until I know what I'm doing, and then I need to buy equipment of course, but some day it's what I absolutely will do. There is no catch for the families, it's not a clever sales tactic, they will get all the pics I've taken that are usable (that wouldn't be very many just now!) but we'd choose several family pics and some of the child/children to get printed and give them. The parents would get a special picture each for their purse or wallet, Nans and Grandads would get a picture each, and the child would get a special framed picture of their family to keep by he side of their bed. That's something nice for them to be able to take into hospital if they need to go in for treatments. Sure I could sell pics, give them some and let them buy others, but for me then it comes across as a sales thing. I may well let them have extra pics at cost price, too early to decide, but the shoot and a small collection of pics would always be free.

I'm not poor, but I couldn't afford to do that for long, there are hundreds of families across Devon with disabled children, probably well over a thousand, and then there are the families with adult kids - I'd love to help them too. So what I'm hoping is other families may like what I'm offering and want to book me for a portrait session that they would pay for. It would be a social enterprise, not a charity, not a business. I can then use the profits to fund the costs of giving to the families with disabled children, and anything left over would go into trust so that when my partner and I are no longer around our three children have a little security for their future. Chances are they won't be able to work and earn a living, so if they don't have plenty of money then the local would manage their care and put them in whichever home was offering the cheapest price.

Being a full time carer limits what work I can do, I need something to keep me busy, and id love to be able to put money away for my children for the future as I constantly worry about what will happen to them when I'm not here to protect them.

If people genuinely think I could learn with the camera taking some of the work on and I'd still have all the skills I'd ever need for the future then absolutely I'll do it, but I've read so many people say contradictory things. I've been told it can take years to be good enough, that it will never happen, that learning on anything but manual is t learning, hat I need to learn it all, but now that maybe I can let the camera manage some of the decisions. Trust me, if there is a shortcut or a tip to learn quicker I really want to take it, but I don't want to find myself trying to take some pictures for a family and not understanding what I need to do to make the shot work. I've got to learn all about lighting and setting up for a shoot, so I have a huge amount to learn.

I guess I'm just asking for the right advice and a little support if possible, I have no hidden agenda, I'm telling you all how it is now - I didn't say it before because I was sure I'd be told I couldn't do it, but I'm doing it anyway one way or another, so I'd just really appreciate any help on offer. I'm really not ignoring anyone but it's hard to know which way to go when you get conflicting advice.

None of this is to be big, clever or masochistic, I just want to learn how to take good photographs so I can do something nice, that's all.
 
Marc, where in North Devon are you? If it is not too far away from Bideford I would be happy to pop over and spend an hour or so going through the basics with you one evening. At least you will see the results of the various settings etc. ...
 
Marc, where in North Devon are you? If it is not too far away from Bideford I would be happy to pop over and spend an hour or so going through the basics with you one evening. At least you will see the results of the various settings etc. ...


Paul that would be amazing. I'm in Langtree so I'm not far from you, you would be most welcome or I can come to you if that's easier. I'm assuming I can send PMs now so I'll send you my email :)
 
I wish you the best of luck with all this Marc. FWIW I think photography is an excellent choice that will help both you and your family, and many others. Photography can be so many things - it's an art and science and craft, it can be a hobby or profession, enjoyed in its own right or as something to enhance just about any other activity that interests you. The basics are not that hard or complicated and combined with as much practise as you can put in, that's all you need to get excellent results. Or you can go as deep as you like into the theory, the technicalities and the art, and learn something new every day for ever.

This place, TP, is also a great resource for learning and sharing, and socialising too. You will get to 'know' a lot of the regular posters and make many virtual friends. You may never meet them, but there are also quite a few that do meet up, sometimes on a fairly regular basis. And I know that you are not alone in your personal situation and have a lot in common with some other members.

Have you read the tutorials that have been linked? They address a lot of your questions, but on exposure modes there are no hard and fast rules - the answer is usually, it depends. And very often it can also be, it doesn't really matter. They are all just different ways at arriving at the same answer - correct exposure. A better description for manual mode is 'set and lock' as that's really what it does, but in auto modes you can also lock those, or apply manual compensation adjustments. If that sounds confusing, just don't worry about it for now. The important thing to know is what the settings actually mean. So whether you set f/5.6 or ISO800 yourself, or let the camera do it, you know the effect the settings will have on the image.

Very quick summary:
- Shutter speed is the length of time the sensor is exposed to light, and it also controls movement - either subject or camera movement.
- Lens aperture, the f/number, adjusts the brightness of the light passing to the sensor. It also controls depth-of-field - the zone of sharpness in front and behind the sharply focused point.
- ISO is sensitivity to light. Raising ISO allows you to shoot in lower light, and is also used to allow more room for adjustment of shutter speed and aperture. This is often very useful, but the downside is higher ISO increases noise that shows as a grainy appearance.

Here's a popular exposure analogy - filling a glass with water. Correct exposure is when the glass is filled to the top.
- Shutter speed is how long the tap is turned on.
- Lens aperture is the flow, how hard the tap is turned on.
- ISO changes the size of the glass. Raising it effectively makes the glass smaller.
And over-riding all these is the mains water pressure, which is the brightness of the ambient light (sun).

HTH :) And BTW, have you told us what camera/lens you have? I may have missed it, but that might have an impact on what you can do, particularly the sensor size if it's small.
 
Kind of wishing I'd never asked :confused:

I'm not trying to big or clever,
No worries... it's an old debate and some topics come with preconceived biases.

When the camera was controlling the ISO setting I could see the correlation with the shutter speed and aperture, but I didn't understand why it had chosen that setting. I know the answer is 'because it works' and it gives the correct exposure, but correct how, and what happens if it was set to something different? If I would learn more about the camera and how everything works by putting it in Av and letting the camera manage the ISO then I would, but will I really in the long run? This isn't rhetorical, would I learn more or not? If I would then I'll do it, and I can learn other stuff as there is still a lot to get my head round. I'm just worried that later I'll come unstuck and wish I'd learnt how to control it all manually.

In post 52 I explained why *you* would choose certain settings (I also linked an article on exposure I wrote). But as to why the camera will choose certain settings is potentially much more complicated. And the more you give the camera control over the more complicated it can be. It will vary with the camera's programmed logic and the way you have various settings set. However, if the camera only has control over one thing it will always adjust that one thing for "correct exposure" according to the meter... Unfortunately the meter is not always right, and "correct exposure" may not be what you want (that's why there are several different metering modes, they give different results).

IMO, if you have full understanding/correlation of the various factors then you can use full manual mode, and if you don't you can't. And if you can't, then you can't really have full understanding/correlation/control in any other mode either... they're actually more complicated. So learn the basics of full manual, it's not that complicated really.
And then move on to learn the other modes. If you understand the basics, then you'll have a better understanding of which mode you might want, what things are better left to the camera (faster/easier) in a given situation, and how you might want to set the camera limits for those controls.

Good Luck!
 
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I wish you the best of luck with all this Marc. FWIW I think photography is an excellent choice that will help both you and your family, and many others. Photography can be so many things - it's an art and science and craft, it can be a hobby or profession, enjoyed in its own right or as something to enhance just about any other activity that interests you. The basics are not that hard or complicated and combined with as much practise as you can put in, that's all you need to get excellent results. Or you can go as deep as you like into the theory, the technicalities and the art, and learn something new every day for ever.

This place, TP, is also a great resource for learning and sharing, and socialising too. You will get to 'know' a lot of the regular posters and make many virtual friends. You may never meet them, but there are also quite a few that do meet up, sometimes on a fairly regular basis. And I know that you are not alone in your personal situation and have a lot in common with some other members.

Thanks for the nice words :) I've been on many forums, I have seen good and bad, this seems like a good place and I love how I can search pretty much anything and it's been asked many times before. Doesn't stop me asking again though, I like to make sure!

Have you read the tutorials that have been linked?

Yea, the one thing I genuinely do is accept all and any advice and learn from it. Everything I've been linked to I've read or I'm reading. My mind doesn't work too well with overloading, so if I sit and read for 3 hours it isn't sinking in, I need little bursts, but it's going in slowly. I've been reading the tutorials that @Pookeyhead spemt time writing and they are really useful. I read it all through, then went back over it again, and now I'm working through it all to make sure I really understand it. I'd hate people to think I was asking questions and not hearing what I'm being told, I'm just asking questions about WHAT I'm being told. If a camera sets the ISO for me how, why, what to, is it ever wrong, what if it is - and so on. I hope that's not coming across as arrogant, I just want to really understand it.

HTH :) And BTW, have you told us what camera/lens you have? I may have missed it, but that might have an impact on what you can do, particularly the sensor size if it's small.

It does help, thanks, and I really appreciate it all, and everyone else's words - even if they contradict what others say.

I have a Canon 1300D with the 18-55 kit lens but I have an EF-S 18-135 F3.5-5.6 lens on its way that I've been donated. Importantly for me it allows me to take control of most aspects of the camera - that's the important part I guess. I don't plan to buy any further EF-S lenses really as I'm hoping to invest in another camera sooner rather than later. I need to get a flashlite, and I want to get some studio lights, I need to learn the principles and get practicing, but I don't want to just buy the cheapest if I'll need to buy again soon after.
 
<snip>

I have a Canon 1300D with the 18-55 kit lens but I have an EF-S 18-135 F3.5-5.6 lens on its way that I've been donated. Importantly for me it allows me to take control of most aspects of the camera - that's the important part I guess. I don't plan to buy any further EF-S lenses really as I'm hoping to invest in another camera sooner rather than later. I need to get a flashlite, and I want to get some studio lights, I need to learn the principles and get practicing, but I don't want to just buy the cheapest if I'll need to buy again soon after.

Good camera. You could spend a lot more and get only marginal improvements, what really makes a difference is lenses. The kit zoom is great little all-rounder, but limited by the maximum aperture. The 18-135 has the same issue, though the extra range will be handy. That's fine for now, and don't try to run just yet - buy one extra item at a time and see where it takes you, as that knowledge will influence what you might need next in ways that are hard to predict and often personal to you. A speedlite is always useful in all kinds of ways, studio lights even better in controlled situations, maybe a tripod (not yet unless you know you need one).

And while I say tread carefully with new kit, from what you've said I think a fast prime would be a good move - 'fast' means low f/number, and 'prime' means fixed focal length rather than zoom. The one to get is a Canon 50mm f/1.8, the STM version that is way better than the older MkII model, and is still very affordable at under £100 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-EF-1...qid=1473424630&sr=8-1&keywords=canon+50mm+stm On your camera, 50mm is good for portraits (try that setting on your 18-55 to see) and f/1.8 allows you to shoot indoors with faster shutter speeds. But the best thing is shallow depth-of-field at f/1.8, for nicely blurred backgrounds (y)
 
Tis a strange old question.
I'm sorry if I've sullied the debate. :)

My view is that you do absolutely need to learn to control your camera, just that using M isn't the only or best way of doing so.

Good luck in your venture, if you were closer I'd be happy to help, sincerely.

But there's the elephant in the room of your plan that just simplified life. Many 'studio' shots don't require the knowledge you're seeking. Go into a cheap studio and you'll find markers on the settings, or even dials taped up. :) (Even some expensive studios)

Your camera meter doesn't measure studio heads. Your start point is (manual) 100ISO 1/125 and f8. The flash output and aperture will take some fine tuning to get to what you want. But the ISO and shutter speed can be constants.

Then we're back to the important points for making a great portrait:
Connection
Pose
Lighting

So 'photographically' the task couldn't be simpler. A monkey could do it.
But getting results worthy of your subjects and customers, that's a tricky thing.

I have to add my favourite 'portrait' photographers on this site aren't the big names in business, they're not shooting 50 weddings a year, 2 of them are devout amateurs and the other hasn't long turned 'pro'. But they each produce images that always illicit a response.

Spend an evening looking at images posted by...
@blakester @Sir SR and @sunnyside_up
Iain, Shaheed and Beth each have a unique talent for capturing people that you will do well to strive towards.

BTW, Manual settings for studio lights FTW. ;)
 
I always shot manual, after trying it around 2013. Never used The P, S or A mode on my dial
 
Some of us here learnt how to use a manual camera before 'automatic' or 'programme' modes were ever invented. For me with over 30 years of using manual I feel comfortable with it but will often slip into the A or P mode if I feel lazy . Auto ISO not on your life...... !
 
'this is the kind of advice to ignore'

??
The post not the mode :)
Just for clarity as you seem to have a desire to misunderstand my posts.

Manual is a valid approach, sometimes vital *. But not what I'd recommend as a first step. :)

*see my post above regarding the OP's plans :)
 
@HoppyUK said ...''maybe a tripod (not yet unless you know you need one)...''

your life background touched me - I've recently lost a best friend/sis-in-law. My brother was grateful for my photographs of her.

I've been advertising a very good set of Manfrotto tripod legs on here - but no takers...haha
should you decided a tripod is needed, please PM me - I'll post it to you FOC

You'll need a 'head' - somebody can explain which will be better for your situation
-- a pan-head (probably) or a ball-head (I'm finding it OK for landscapes but it's slow to adjust)
.


FWIW - i usually use AV mode, with AUTO ISO (shock, horror) set to 200 with max = 1600 and min shutter speed 1/250 (shakey hands at 75..:(
the Auto ISO Auto then rises if the scene warrents higher than my chosen f-stop at 1/250
if it reaches 1600 ISO - it then decreases the shutter speed

give it a try - OK it's not your original choice but you would control the DoF and a set speed for the moving (?) children
 
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Good camera. You could spend a lot more and get only marginal improvements, what really makes a difference is lenses. The kit zoom is great little all-rounder, but limited by the maximum aperture. The 18-135 has the same issue, though the extra range will be handy. That's fine for now, and don't try to run just yet - buy one extra item at a time and see where it takes you, as that knowledge will influence what you might need next in ways that are hard to predict and often personal to you. A speedlite is always useful in all kinds of ways, studio lights even better in controlled situations, maybe a tripod (not yet unless you know you need one).

And while I say tread carefully with new kit, from what you've said I think a fast prime would be a good move - 'fast' means low f/number, and 'prime' means fixed focal length rather than zoom. The one to get is a Canon 50mm f/1.8, the STM version that is way better than the older MkII model, and is still very affordable at under £100 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-EF-1...qid=1473424630&sr=8-1&keywords=canon+50mm+stm On your camera, 50mm is good for portraits (try that setting on your 18-55 to see) and f/1.8 allows you to shoot indoors with faster shutter speeds. But the best thing is shallow depth-of-field at f/1.8, for nicely blurred backgrounds (y)

Thanks for the tips Hoppy. I've been talking about speedlites, some of the budget ones look just fine, I'll go for one of those at some point soon.

I do want a prime lens, read soooooo many different bits of advice on the ideal focal length for portraits, but everyone has a preference - which is fine. Just makes it harder to choose! I do want to make sure any lenses I buy are full frame, I know they will not give me the same focal length as they will on a full frame, but I don't want to buy twice. Certainly the 50mm is on my list, and on my crop sensor it will still be good for portraits I reckon.
 
Tis a strange old question.
I'm sorry if I've sullied the debate. :)

My view is that you do absolutely need to learn to control your camera, just that using M isn't the only or best way of doing so.

Good luck in your venture, if you were closer I'd be happy to help, sincerely.

But there's the elephant in the room of your plan that just simplified life. Many 'studio' shots don't require the knowledge you're seeking. Go into a cheap studio and you'll find markers on the settings, or even dials taped up. :) (Even some expensive studios)

Your camera meter doesn't measure studio heads. Your start point is (manual) 100ISO 1/125 and f8. The flash output and aperture will take some fine tuning to get to what you want. But the ISO and shutter speed can be constants.

Then we're back to the important points for making a great portrait:
Connection
Pose
Lighting

So 'photographically' the task couldn't be simpler. A monkey could do it.
But getting results worthy of your subjects and customers, that's a tricky thing.

I have to add my favourite 'portrait' photographers on this site aren't the big names in business, they're not shooting 50 weddings a year, 2 of them are devout amateurs and the other hasn't long turned 'pro'. But they each produce images that always illicit a response.

Spend an evening looking at images posted by...
@blakester @Sir SR and @sunnyside_up
Iain, Shaheed and Beth each have a unique talent for capturing people that you will do well to strive towards.

BTW, Manual settings for studio lights FTW. ;)

Not stifled anything Phil - it's great hearing what everyone has to say. The very nice @PaulButler kimdly gave up a couple of hours of his afternoon to drive out and give me some camera training. Thanks Paul - I really enjoyed it and it was so helpful, it made lots of things fall into place.

I had a chance to really explain myself, I don't want people to think I'm trying to be argumentative on here, I just feel the need to fully understand what I'm doing. Paul helped me understand some of the stuff I simply didn't get, and once he explained it it made sense, I just needed to put the right words to the right bits I guess.

I'm going to work in Av mode and concentrate on getting to a position where it all comes naturally for me, at the moment I have to pause and think everytime I want to take a shot.

Interesting what you said about studio work Phil. I talked at length with Paul about some of the stuff I wasn't sure about - in a constant light would ISO pretty much be set and forgotten for example.

I've seen Beth's work - really lovely pictures, I don't remember seeing Iain or Shaheed's but I will look them up.

Thanks for the tips Phil - really appreciate you keep checking in :)
 
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