More 'controversial'

gramps said:
and there you have it :)
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Just to add a bit to this--i know many pros who use hides by Alan and others to get their pics, most of which they sell...So although i tend to agree with somethings said its not all one sided..Several pros wouldn't be getting the pics to sell if it wasn't for hides like that...
 
This shows how the images were taken. Haven't read the full paper article yet but I'm sure it doesn't say the kingfisher was diving into a tank--but i may be wrong...Images taken from Alans hide...So is this wrong or is it ok to do this...I believe that using live bait to be wrong and nothing will change my mind to that..Might be better if the paper said the bird was diving into a tank.

http://thedoctorsimages.com/a-few-days-out/
 
who cares?
Certainly not the Kingfisher getting a free supply of minnows. Even if you trained them to do complicated back flips and scored points for their dives with fish... so what. Kingfishers eat all the minnows they can catch,,, they will eat them if you supply them or not.

In the end you are only photographing what they do naturally, even if you control the setting.
the whole objecting thing, is all too PC.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
I believe that using live bait to be wrong and nothing will change my mind to that..
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I've never considered it, and if the truth be told, I hadn't realised that it was such a common photographic practice. Looking at the issue now I'd be very inclined to agree with you. To be fair, I came to photogrpahy as a lifelong wildlife watcher, as opposed to being a lifelong photographer looking to make money out of wildlife. I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with attempting to make a living out of photographing wildlife. I'm just glad it's a hobby for me rather than a profession! I'd be broke!! :exit:
 
markyboy.1967 said:
This shows how the images were taken. Haven't read the full paper article yet but I'm sure it doesn't say the kingfisher was diving into a tank--but i may be wrong...Images taken from Alans hide...So is this wrong or is it ok to do this...I believe that using live bait to be wrong and nothing will change my mind to that..Might be better if the paper said the bird was diving into a tank.

http://thedoctorsimages.com/a-few-days-out/
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Jesus Christ that's far worse than I imagined it would be.

Shame that shot of the set up, and the minnows huddled in the corner of a bare fish tank didn't make it into the article...
 
All those years I sat fishing with maggots and worms on the line ... if only I had known!
 
FourRingCircus said:
I've never considered it, and if the truth be told, I hadn't realised that it was such a common photographic practice. Looking at the issue now I'd be very inclined to agree with you. To be fair, I came to photogrpahy as a lifelong wildlife watcher, as opposed to being a lifelong photographer looking to make money out of wildlife. I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with attempting to make a living out of photographing wildlife. I'm just glad it's a hobby for me rather than a profession! I'd be broke!! :exit:
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Read the article in the paper and it says nothing about the tank, either the papers are hiding things or weren't told the full story...anyway it Alans business he does it the way he wants--just wouldn't be the way i did things...I have said enough so i will bow out for now unless something else pops up that differs from previous comments.\
 
markyboy.1967 said:
This shows how the images were taken. Haven't read the full paper article yet but I'm sure it doesn't say the kingfisher was diving into a tank--but i may be wrong...Images taken from Alans hide...So is this wrong or is it ok to do this...I believe that using live bait to be wrong and nothing will change my mind to that..Might be better if the paper said the bird was diving into a tank.

http://thedoctorsimages.com/a-few-days-out/
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Well ... have to confess that looks a decidedly different way of doing things and I wouldn't be happy with taking photos on that setup ...not from a wildlife point of view but from a photographic point of view. It seems to take the river and associated environment out of the picture (excuse pun) and replace it with a fish tank ... I've heard of fish tanks being submerged in the river but this seems very unsatisfactory to me.
 
On the subject of Pro Wildlife togs getting the hump that they are struggling to sell images due to the "set ups", it sounds a bit like the whole Pro Wedding togs Vs "Weekend Warriors" argument

Photography is changing, and changing quickly, technology is changing and good quality equipment is becoming cheaper, if the Pro's can't compete then it's time to either set up their game or diversify

On the subject of staged shots like the Kingfisher, it's not what everyone would do, but there are obviously enough people about who do use these techniques to make for it's own industry in providing togs with these locations and setups

I suppose we all have our own thresholds of what we would/wouldn't do to get "the shot", but as suggested elsewhere in this thread, unless every wildlife shot ever taken was accompanied by wider shot to show if it was staged or not, then this practice will only continue, and it's down to the end viewer to decide if they feel the image was staged in any way or not
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Read the article in the paper and it says nothing about the tank, either the papers are hiding things or weren't told the full story...anyway it Alans business he does it the way he wants--just wouldn't be the way i did things...I have said enough so i will bow out for now unless something else pops up that differs from previous comments.\
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Reading the fb posts he states he did tell the paper how he did it but they didn't print it..
 
Cg_Girl said:
Reading the fb posts he states he did tell the paper how he did it but they didn't print it..
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From the article

'I got in the water and built them an artificial bank, by digging a hole and filling it with clay. I wanted to give her a helping hand with her nest and see if the chicks could survive.
'Around 70 per cent died from either flooding or not learning to dive properly. It is so difficult to learn to dive like the one in the picture as the bird has to judge the refraction in the water.'

It seems he's claiming he's actually helping the immature kingfisher's to hunt by doing this.

Surely he's doing the opposite and actually creating an artificial dependence on the baited area and easy hunting environment ,rather than them learning how to hunt for their own food.

On the subject of KF hbits, what is the usual winter behaviour for kingfishers, do they spend their winters away from their summer haunts?
 
Logical Fallacy said:
From the article

'I got in the water and built them an artificial bank, by digging a hole and filling it with clay. I wanted to give her a helping hand with her nest and see if the chicks could survive.
'Around 70 per cent died from either flooding or not learning to dive properly. It is so difficult to learn to dive like the one in the picture as the bird has to judge the refraction in the water.'

It seems he's claiming he's actually helping the immature kingfisher's to hunt by doing this.

Surely he's doing the opposite and actually creating an artificial dependence on the baited area and easy hunting environment ,rather than them learning how to hunt for their own food.

On the subject of KF hbits, what is the usual winter behaviour for kingfishers, do they spend their winters away from their summer haunts?
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70% die...is that normal do you know? As in if they are left to it themselves without interference :(
 
I think the young of many species that nest along the riverbank can have a pretty high mortality rate due to water levels.
 
Gee whiz some things never change. some very sad and out of touch individuals who still like talking about me, its laughable lol Firstly you have not a clue what yous are on about on the majority of things you are discussing here. The tank set up shown is well outdated and nothing like that now so stop trying to look smart. Marks anti live baiting comments was a surprise as he was keen to come down to the Kingfisher many times before, maybe his memory is fading the same way that it was me that blocked you and Chas on Facebook :) Surprised you know I got a D4 a couple of weeks back maybe your seeing this on TV or the newspapers? Any way that is old silly stuff and I care not a jot about this episode now.
Regarding Kingfishers I have spent more time with these than any other subject and although the numbers quoted by the press will be a bit ott it will be hundreds of thousand images Ive taken as I have developed the site over the last few years. As pointed out I did tell them how it was done and they chose not to say, it was in 5 nationals today and I will be talking live on Radio Scotland tomorrow and I will be saying how the shots are achieved, I have no problem with how I go about these things and its perfectly legal. Any way not got the time nor the will to waste on these forums nowadays, but glad I can be of service to give you something to talk about. PS I did see several nice posts so a big thanks to those that chose to do this. Onwards and upwards is what I say ;) bye bye Alan
 
Kae McFadyen said:
Gee whiz some things never change. some very sad and out of touch individuals who still like talking about me, its laughable lol Firstly you have not a clue what yous are on about on the majority of things you are discussing here. The tank set up shown is well outdated and nothing like that now so stop trying to look smart. Marks anti live baiting comments was a surprise as he was keen to come down to the Kingfisher many times before, maybe his memory is fading the same way that it was me that blocked you and Chas on Facebook :) Surprised you know I got a D4 a couple of weeks back maybe your seeing this on TV or the newspapers? Any way that is old silly stuff and I care not a jot about this episode now.
Regarding Kingfishers I have spent more time with these than any other subject and although the numbers quoted by the press will be a bit ott it will be hundreds of thousand images Ive taken as I have developed the site over the last few years. As pointed out I did tell them how it was done and they chose not to say, it was in 5 nationals today and I will be talking live on Radio Scotland tomorrow and I will be saying how the shots are achieved, I have no problem with how I go about these things and its perfectly legal. Any way not got the time nor the will to waste on these forums nowadays, but glad I can be of service to give you something to talk about. PS I did see several nice posts so a big thanks to those that chose to do this. Onwards and upwards is what I say ;) bye bye Alan
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Sorry Alan, i think your memory is going--sadly... I have never once been to your kingfisher hide, I'm sure others can look back and see my images on flickr, my website etc and see if there is a kingfisher shot anywhere..i think not.I was never invited to your kingfisher hide and i remember you saying you were building one--surely not 6 years ago...lol...think it was closer to just over 2 years ago...I think also you will find i blocked you but not sure what happened about Chas, but hey just keep saying what you want if it makes you feel better...I tried to be optimistic about what the papers said as i know they can bend the truth but when you come on here talking crap then maybe you did just that to the papers..
 
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I know the FB thread very well. I commented on it. There's a little bit more to this than at first meets the eye. So that you know where I stand. I have no issues with live baiting. I do however have issues with photographing captive birds of prey or any animal in captivity.

We all have different ideas of what constitutes acceptable or unacceptable methods. The thread started re a specific way of baiting but in my view it then opens up all baiting to scrutiny and taking the moral high ground regarding one method using the argument that it it changing the natural behaviour of the animal/bird but then using methods which possibly are doing the same is hypocrisy. Not read it since so no idea what else has been said. It was a fairly pointless discussion which was never going to end in anything other than a stalemate so decided I'd rather rub my ass with a rough brick than read any more drivel from the guy.
 
markyboy.1967 said:
Sorry Alan, i think your memory is going--sadly... I have never once been to your kingfisher hide, I'm sure others can look back and see my images on flickr, my website etc and see if there is a kingfisher shot anywhere..i think not.I was never invited to your kingfisher hide and i remember you saying you were building one--surely not 6 years ago...lol...think it was closer to just over 2 years ago...I think also you will find i blocked you but not sure what happened about Chas, but hey just keep saying what you want if it makes you feel better...I tried to be optimistic about what the papers said as i know they can bend the truth but when you come on here talking crap then maybe you did just that to the papers..
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Obviously not reading things correctly again Mark tut tut. Look close and you will see I said "As he was keen to come down" NOT that you came down. I have had a Kingfisher hide up since 2009 and Im on my 6th one now. Any way lets move on and hope you are enjoying the coverage my hard work has earned. Lots more to come, take it easy old pal :)
 
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Kae McFadyen said:
Obviously not reading things correctly again Mark tut tut. Look close and you will see I said "As he ws keen to come down" NOT that you came down. I have had a Kingfisher hide up since 2009 and Im on my 6th one now. Any way lets move on and hope you are enjoying the coverage my hard work has earned. Lots more to come, take it easy old pal :)
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I always do Alan..
 
And as his right to reply has been given, we're now banning this new account....
 
Tintin124 said:
Wilkinsons are now sharing Alan's images too.... shame on them.
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Can you explain simply what all the fuss is about and why he has been banned - maybe I missed something and it has been removed
 
BillN_33 said:
Can you explain simply what all the fuss is about and why he has been banned - maybe I missed something and it has been removed
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Think the fuss is the method he uses to get the kingfisher shots... they are baited its up to you whether you agree with this or not.
 
Tintin124 said:
Think the fuss is the method he uses to get the kingfisher shots... they are baited its up to you whether you agree with this or not.
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I just watch the BBC nature programmes and think that they are marvellous

although I do not think that the discussed KF shot is particularly outstanding
 
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BillN_33 said:
Can you explain simply what all the fuss is about and why he has been banned - maybe I missed something and it has been removed
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He was banned long ago, he came back because the thread was discussing him.
 
BillN_33 said:
I just watch the BBC nature programmes and think that they are marvellous

although I do not think that the discussed KF shot is particularly outstanding
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Bearing in mind the speed with which Kingfishers move Bill, I think it is pretty good for what he was specifically trying to achieve, though in general I like them better coming up out of the water. Many wildlife programmes are setup or baited in some part so I don't see these as being any different to that ... indeed his baited Sparrowhawk was featured on BBC Autumnwatch with great excitement from the annoying Chris Packham ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/e96c8g/live/c69mxj (Scroll down to watch the video repeat),
 
gramps said:
Bearing in mind the speed with which Kingfishers move Bill, I think it is pretty good for what he was specifically trying to achieve, though in general I like them better coming up out of the water. Many wildlife programmes are setup or baited in some part so I don't see these as being any different to that ... indeed his baited Sparrowhawk was featured on BBC Autumnwatch with great excitement from the annoying Chris Packham ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/events/e96c8g/live/c69mxj (Scroll down to watch the video repeat),
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Quite a few out here ..... in fact I took a few shots out of the window - with the 300mm PF, (I think that I posted them)

didn't think a Sparrow-hawk was that special, no more than any other bird

If I built one of those hut things in out wood and bated it with mice, (very day), I am sure I could get shots like that ............. OK maybe not a 6 year old one
 
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Bill I accept that some people may have a genuine aversion to baiting of any sort, I respect that but hasten to add that your (and mine and many others) feeders in the garden are basically no different. What did stand out to me was the objection from some other photographers that these baited shots from hides reduced their possibility of selling photos that they have taken 'in the wild' ... well, this is the 'cam/phone' world we now live in and it is in everyone's grasp to have the opportunity to take photos they have always wanted to get :)
 
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Cg_Girl said:
He was banned long ago, he came back because the thread was discussing him.
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Absolutley (y)
Someone obviously gave him the heads up, so he opened a duplicate account, which is against the rules.
However we discussed it, and decided he has a right to reply.
As per Marcel's post #67
 
gramps said:
Bill I accept that some people may have a genuine aversion to baiting of any sort, I respect that but hasten to add that your (and mine and many others) feeders in the garden are basically no different. What did stand out to me was the objection from some other photographers that these baited shots from hides reduced their possibility of selling photos that they have taken 'in the wild' ... well, this is the 'cam/phone' world we now live in and it is in everyone's grasp to have the opportunity to take photos they have always wanted to get :)
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I think that if you look at my earlier posts in this thread Roger, I agree with you ........ cannot see what all the fuss is about, but I'm senile so maybe that's the reason!
 
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Cobra said:
Absolutley (y)
Someone obviously gave him the heads up, so he opened a duplicate account, which is against the rules.
However we discussed it, and decided he has a right to reply.
As per Marcel's post #67
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Bloody bird photographers!!!
 
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