My new camera dilemma ,Help needed !

BADGER.BRAD

BADGER.BRAD

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Hello everyone,

I’m in a total dilemma I’m looking for reasonable quality modern a digital camera which I want as a new item I presently use a 11 year old 9 mega pixel Kodak point and press (costing me £9 including postage) which works o.k but the major factor which gets in the way is it’s lack of dynamic range , I seem to flit between ideas on what camera type to go for. I have about £400 to play with. I have plenty of things that take my time up six dogs that need walking, a small business a day job, 5 adult kids 8 grand kids which always want something and an extra house I rent out and maintain and lot’s of other interests and hobbies because of this most of my photography is done whilst doing other things, dog walking ,cycling,hiking and general day to day life.

These are my general arguments with myself

Up market Point and press (with larger sensor)

Hopefully being more modern and having a bigger sensor ,dynamic rage and general quality would be better, I would have manual control, would be able to carry it around all the time (as I do with the present one) The downside would be inability to get a little more creative using filters and I’m guessing not quite the quality of a micro 4/3 rds mirror less or DSLR plus I would still be stuck with a screen which I cannot see in bright light a real bug bear of my present camera yuk.

Mirrorless,

Better quality, bigger sensor ,ability to use filters for more creative photography , I like the look of many of these as they seem to be styled more like the film cameras I’m used to. Downside is it’s a little bigger ( I’m less likely to carry it at all times and at my price point I’m still stuck with using a back screen.

DSLR (most likely a Canon)

Plenty of lenses at good prices, larger sensors compared to point and shoots plenty of accessories at good prices. Down side is they are very large and bulky meaning I’m less likely to carry it other than for dedicated photography days (not many)

I'll be honest and tell you at this point I haven't looked into specific cameras ,What cameras or ideas would you suggest ?
 
I'd expect a decent modern large-sensor point & press would cost about the same and only be a little smaller than an M43 outfit, especially if fitted with a pancake zoom. Bearing your criteria in mind, you might also find you could get a Sony A7 + kit lens for just a little more than your budget - earlier this year LCE Leamington had a nice A7 + kit zoom for about £500.

My *impression* is that you're not really interested in the technical aspects of taking pictures, and would like, as far as possible, for the camera to figure out that side of things so that you can just aim and fire. On that basis I'd suggest a used Sony RX100 III, IV or V or RX10 I or II - you should probably research those to get an idea of what they're like. Both would be an enormous step up from the Kodak in image quality.

See also https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/sony-rx100.433610/page-44
 
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Sony RX100 III is a good suggestion. IQ is amazing given the size.

A good compact and lightweight mirrorless option with EVF is the Olympus E-M10II. You should be able to pick this up around the £200 mark used. Pair it with the Panasonic 14-45 OIS f/3.5-5.6 and the Olympus 40-150 f/4.0-5.6 and you have a great lightweight setup within your overall budget (if you buy used). If you intend to use filters the Panasonic 12-60 f/3.5-5.6 is also pretty good and shares a 58mm filter size with the Olympus 40-150 f/4.0-5.6.

If you don't mind a slightly bigger body, the original Olympus E-M1 is now also around the £260 mark used.

If you want a small Canon DSLR have a look at the 100D/200D. You could also consider a Canon EF-M mirrorless body.

All of the above will deliver significantly better IQ than your current camera.
 
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As suggested the Olympus EM10 ii can be put on automatic and used as a point and shoot and with a pancake lens will go in a coat pocket. It also allows for full manual control for those times that you want to get creative and there is a good range of lenses from both Olympus and Panasonic which can be got at reasonable prices on the second hand market. I would encourage you to get your hands on one and make sure you are OK with the size of the buttons, etc. After a few years with an EM5 I still find the buttons a bit fiddly and nothing comes natually except the shutter button, this doesn't stop me using it though and again on auto it is never an issue.

That said it is the lenses that tie you into a system, so if you think you might one day go to Canon it might be better to start down that road now with a small, second-hand DSLR.
 
Now that you have some recommendations from the good folks on here, you could have a look on flickr at the images that are posted - assuming that there is an owner's group - a quick search will tell you. You can then decide between new, grey or used. If you buy from a dealer, you will get a warrantee. I am not sure how long you have been a member on here but once you have been a member long enough, you can buy on here. I have bought two amazing lenses and a wee Wacom tablet from the good folks on here. You can check their feedback. Your money certainly goes a lot farther that way. I would also go and pick a few of the cameras up... of course, if you do that, you then have to balance up whether it is fair to go and pick their brains and then buy elsewhere and, of course, if there are no retailers left then we are all stuffed on that front.
 
RX100/3 was 389 from Amazon a few weeks ago, brand new, boxed etc.. Only limitation is the relatively limited zoom range but it suits me! Not too keen about the EVF needing to be popped up and pulled out but like the way that collapsing it switches the thing off. Just slips into a shirt pocket - a must for my wants. IQ streets ahead of the TZ100.
 
I'd suggest a Sony A6000 if you want mirrorless or a Nikon D3500 if you want a DSLR (all the images on my website were taken with a D3400 which is its predecessor). Both well within your budget new.
 
Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, as pointed out I think it's time to get out and try some cameras and see how they feel and look in the flesh.
 
viewfromthenorth said:
Panasonic Lx100 has a decent 4/3 size sensor and can be picked up second hand within budget. Not the most compact of compacts, but still a small camera.
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Major plus for the LX100 is that it has a viewfinder. It's the only current compact option that does until you get into budget-busting versions of the RX100.
 
There are reports of sensor contamination with the Panasonic LX100 though and that is a worry for me with the more expensive fixed lens cameras as if it happens it's something you'll struggle to fix and may well require a trip back to the manufacturer.

My money would go towards a Panasonic GX80 or possibly a GX9 if the budget allows. Other than those an A6000 but for me the handling and lenses of Micro Four Thirds would sway me to Panasonic.
 
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Something I just thought of but will any of these cameras allow me to do in camera black and white and multi format ie 4:3, 16:9 and square ?
 
The LX100 has a physical switch for format changing. The RX100 has equivalent menu options.
Just about every digital camera includes monochrome amongst the special effects available.
 
BADGER.BRAD said:
Something I just thought of but will any of these cameras allow me to do in camera black and white and multi format ie 4:3, 16:9 and square ?
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That is often something that is done in post-processing. The software that comes with the camera will normally allow cropping and mono conversion as will things like windows photo editor.
 
BADGER.BRAD said:
Something I just thought of but will any of these cameras allow me to do in camera black and white and multi format ie 4:3, 16:9 and square ?
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Sure, but like Chris hinted, why would you let the camera make un-recoverable changes when you can do the same thing reversibly yourself.
 
I loved my lx100. And I loved that toggle switch which move from 1:1 3:4 16:9 ... it's really fun and actually really clever, if you read reviews you'll see how the camera doesn't use the whole sensor so the different crop use has much as possible of the sensor. On the wide side of the lens it has an aperture of f1.7 or f1.8 which is very good for low light and at the longer lens it isn't bad either. It's a bit too big for a pocket camera but it actually made it much better for manual control with more buttons and rings. It's great for video too.

Sadly mine died because it had dust in the lens which is a very common problem with these.

I have just bought myself a panasonic GX9 which was 399£ brand new with double cash back, I think at the moment it is back up to 450£ with cashback. But you need to had the price of a lens on top of that, there some kit lens at about 100 for exemple the 12-32 pancake (24-64 equivalent). My thinking was if you can change the lens you can clean the dust. And I have to says I'm really pleased with my GX9! Personally i went for GX9 400£, a leica 15mm f1.7 (30mm) 200£ and a panasonic 42.5mm f1.7 (85mm) 300£. But has said before you could do GX9 400£ and 12-32 f3.5-5.6 100£ or the 20mm f1.7 100£ or the 25mm f1.7 100£. The first two are pancake lens the third is very very small too.
 
OK the things I would ask myself is what sort of pictures do I want to take and what can I see myself taking in the future, and then based on this what lenses would I need. I would then look at the different systems, see which have the lenses you think you'd want and then look at costs. Once you're in a system it can be expensive to change so it's good if you can get it right from the get go.

I would also ask myself how much weight and bulk am I wanting to carry. You say most of your photography is whilst out dog walking and hiking, and if that were me I would not be wanting the weight and bulk of heavy DSLRs. Fuji, Nikon, Canon and Sony mirrorless will be out of budget but you should be able to pick m4/3 up within budget. I'm a huge fan of this system as I've been around the houses trying to find the 'ultimate' travel/hiking camera and for me this is m4/3 (I shoot Olympus). It still gives outstanding image quality (at normal viewing sizes I sometimes struggle to distinguish it from my FF Nikon) yet is light and compact. I did try the Sony RX100-III and Canon G7x but for me image quality was just starting to get outside of what I found acceptable (YMMV).
 
Unfortunately and I'm guessing here as I use Linux any camera software will be a waste of time, and as regard to changing aspect ratios I like to do it in camera ( I only have a phone that will do it at the moment ) as I can see exactly what is in frame and either exclude or include it without trying to guess what will end up in a certain size crop, the same thing with black and white as I can see if it works, I find it hard to look at a colour image and work out if it will work in black and white. On top of that I try to stay away from the time wasting device that most people call a PC preferring to get the shot as near as dam it in camera.

How do I know if a camera uses the 4/3rds system Snerkler ? and will all 4/3rds lenses fit all 4/3rd cameras ?
 
Micro 4/3rds logo shown HERE and there's a link to the 4/3rds page near the top. AFAIK, all 4/3rds lenses fit all 4/3rds bodies.
 
BADGER.BRAD said:
Unfortunately and I'm guessing here as I use Linux any camera software will be a waste of time, and as regard to changing aspect ratios I like to do it in camera ( I only have a phone that will do it at the moment ) as I can see exactly what is in frame and either exclude or include it without trying to guess what will end up in a certain size crop, the same thing with black and white as I can see if it works, I find it hard to look at a colour image and work out if it will work in black and white. On top of that I try to stay away from the time wasting device that most people call a PC preferring to get the shot as near as dam it in camera.

How do I know if a camera uses the 4/3rds system Snerkler ? and will all 4/3rds lenses fit all 4/3rd cameras ?
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OK so I'm assuming from this that you don't process at all on the computer therefore won't shoot in raw? The reason I ask is that if you shoot raw on m4/3 it doesn't matter what aspect ratio you choose it will always save the 4:3 file, and then display it in the ratio you chose such as 3:2. This way you can go back to the full 4:3 if you choose to.

One thing to clear up is that we're talking Micro 4/3 (M4/3, MFT) and not 4/3. 4/3 is an old system.

If you're looking at micro 4/3 then it will usually say so. However, if you're looking at modern Olympus and/or Panasonic interchangeable lens cameras you will most likely be looking at m4/3. Panasonic have just released full frame cameras but they're £2-3k. All M4/3 lenses will fit all m4/3 cameras, so you can use Olympus lenses on Panasonic bodies and vice versa. This is very unique, no other system offers this without having to use adapters.
 
BADGER.BRAD said:
Unfortunately and I'm guessing here as I use Linux any camera software will be a waste of time, and as regard to changing aspect ratios I like to do it in camera ( I only have a phone that will do it at the moment ) as I can see exactly what is in frame and either exclude or include it without trying to guess what will end up in a certain size crop, the same thing with black and white as I can see if it works, I find it hard to look at a colour image and work out if it will work in black and white. On top of that I try to stay away from the time wasting device that most people call a PC preferring to get the shot as near as dam it in camera.
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Plenty of software for processing under Linux: DigiKam, Darktable, Raw Therapee and more. DigiKam is an excellent though unfortunately destrictive editor (save edits with a new file name). The others are typical RAW processors, and reasonably easy. No reason not to get it mostly right in camera, but editing by hand will always improve on what the camera can do based on the makers presets.

How do I know if a camera uses the 4/3rds system Snerkler ? and will all 4/3rds lenses fit all 4/3rd cameras ?
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M43 symbol as Nod said.
 
BADGER.BRAD said:
How do I know if a camera uses the 4/3rds system Snerkler ? and will all 4/3rds lenses fit all 4/3rd cameras ?
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Apart from one Chinese manufacturer, all µ43 cameras are made by Olympus & Panasonic. Their lenses are inter-operable but there are very few third-party lenses.
 
BADGER.BRAD said:
Unfortunately and I'm guessing here as I use Linux any camera software will be a waste of time, and as regard to changing aspect ratios I like to do it in camera ( I only have a phone that will do it at the moment ) as I can see exactly what is in frame and either exclude or include it without trying to guess what will end up in a certain size crop, the same thing with black and white as I can see if it works, I find it hard to look at a colour image and work out if it will work in black and white. On top of that I try to stay away from the time wasting device that most people call a PC preferring to get the shot as near as dam it in camera.

How do I know if a camera uses the 4/3rds system Snerkler ? and will all 4/3rds lenses fit all 4/3rd cameras ?
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Get a LX100, the lens range is great, you can get a bit of bokeh and it has that switch for the ratio. I did love this feature it's on the top of the lens.
https://www.expertreviews.co.uk/dig...anasonic-lx100-review-a-compact-tour-de-force

If you have more money but the LX100ii which has just come out.
 
snerkler said:
...if you shoot raw on m4/3 it doesn't matter what aspect ratio you choose it will always save the 4:3 file, and then display it in the ratio you chose such as 3:2. This way you can go back to the full 4:3 if you choose to.
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Not all m4/3 cameras do this, some crop the raw file.
 
Ed Sutton said:
Not all m4/3 cameras do this, some crop the raw file.
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Are you sure? When you view in LR it will display the cropped image but if you then choose the crop option in LR you can see that you can have the full original 4:3 file. Is this just an Olympus thing?
 
snerkler said:
Are you sure? When you view in LR it will display the cropped image but if you then choose the crop option in LR you can see that you can have the full original 4:3 file. Is this just an Olympus thing?
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Perfectly sure. I've had two Panasonics which cropped the raw files and one which didn't. It's a handy feature to have though.
 
Ed Sutton said:
Perfectly sure. I've had two Panasonics which cropped the raw files and one which didn't. It's a handy feature to have though.
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Cool, thanks for the info (y)
 
I do do some processing but normally just contrast or trying to tone down the blown highlights a little. I must admit that until I did a bit of reading whilst following a link on this thread I hadn't realized that Micro 4/3rdsand 4/3rds were two different things. I do have a number of M42 lenses from my film cameras would these be usable on either of these systems ? I would most likley use the kit lens generally to keep weight/size down a little and other lenses should I go out on photography only expeditions. I had a look (not in the flesh) at the Sony a5100 has anyone any experiences with this camera ?
 
BADGER.BRAD said:
I do do some processing but normally just contrast or trying to tone down the blown highlights a little. I must admit that until I did a bit of reading whilst following a link on this thread I hadn't realized that Micro 4/3rdsand 4/3rds were two different things. I do have a number of M42 lenses from my film cameras would these be usable on either of these systems ? I would most likley use the kit lens generally to keep weight/size down a little and other lenses should I go out on photography only expeditions. I had a look (not in the flesh) at the Sony a5100 has anyone any experiences with this camera ?
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I think you can use m42 lenses with an adapter but I'm not sure if you get autofocus. The a5100 is a very nice camera but I would personally never buy a camera without a viewfinder and as such think the A6000 is the better option.

The Olympus OMD EM10 mark iI with 14-42mm pancake lens is a very small lightweight package.
https://camerasize.com/compact/#562.360,535.360,633.409,ha,t


.
 
Fuji X-E1. Cheap and relatively compact, especially if you get the 27mm f2.8 lens. The original X100 is cheap now and will give you lovely results. Both have APS-C sensors which will give you more dynamic range and better low light performance than micro 4/3 or a zoom compact.
 
Pentacon said:
Fuji X-E1. Cheap and relatively compact, especially if you get the 27mm f2.8 lens. The original X100 is cheap now and will give you lovely results. Both have APS-C sensors which will give you more dynamic range and better low light performance than micro 4/3 or a zoom compact.
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You might be right but there might not be as much difference as you think.
For exemple on my 4/3rd GX9 I have a 15mm f1.7 so this vs a crop at 27mm f2.8 there won't be that much in DR and ISO? I also get combined in body + in lens stabilisation so I can lower my SS too. Then they really isn't any DR and ISO difference.

Before I was going to buy the GX9 I was really tempted by the ricoh GR ii and the fuji XF10 both because they are crop sensor but then when i read all the review about the autofocus unusable in low light I decided to give the lumix a try and so far I have not regretted.
 
Lemaildetom said:
You might be right but there might not be as much difference as you think.
For exemple on my 4/3rd GX9 I have a 15mm f1.7 so this vs a crop at 27mm f2.8 there won't be that much in DR and ISO? I also get combined in body + in lens stabilisation so I can lower my SS too. Then they really isn't any DR and ISO difference.

Before I was going to buy the GX9 I was really tempted by the ricoh GR ii and the fuji XF10 both because they are crop sensor but then when i read all the review about the autofocus unusable in low light I decided to give the lumix a try and so far I have not regretted.
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Point taken. I think the main thing, for me, is that my widest full frame lenses are 24mm, so they give me the equivalent of 36mm on APS-C. On micro 4/3 they would give me 48mm. Really wide MF primes are rather expensive and I wanted to use what I’d already got. I have since bought a used Fuji 28mm f2 and, apart from the corners not being tack sharp, I find it to be an excellent combination with my X-E1 and X-Pro 1.
 
Lemaildetom said:
You might be right but there might not be as much difference as you think.
For exemple on my 4/3rd GX9 I have a 15mm f1.7 so this vs a crop at 27mm f2.8 there won't be that much in DR and ISO? I also get combined in body + in lens stabilisation so I can lower my SS too. Then they really isn't any DR and ISO difference.

Before I was going to buy the GX9 I was really tempted by the ricoh GR ii and the fuji XF10 both because they are crop sensor but then when i read all the review about the autofocus unusable in low light I decided to give the lumix a try and so far I have not regretted.
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I think people underestimate m4/3, for example the EM1-II has more dynamic range than the Canon 5D3, 5DSR, 6D2 and the list goes on. Bare in mind they're all FF too. Yes it will struggle more at high ISO, but I will still shoot at ISO 6400 on mine and only need a touch of NR.
 
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