ND & Grad ND's

mata.morrison

mata.morrison

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Matthew
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Hi all, I'm new to filters and need some guidance. I know what they can do as I can use the grad tool in LR however I want to try actual filters out.

I got myself a set of these last week and gave them a bash however I was on a beach with rough sea and they got covered in salt... bad move. Anyway I have just cleaned up and they are good to go again.

It's more so the grads I need help with as I have used welding glass a good few times now with good results. I know the set I have is cheap but I want to give them a go before I lay down serious money. So does anyone have tips on getting the exposures right, what do I expose for? The scene, lock in the settings add the grad? Or the other way round? A nice how to guide would be great if anyone has one/link/video?

Many thanks
 
The basic idea is to meter for the foreground, then meter for the sky and look what the 'stop' difference is so you know which strength ND grad add to balance the exposure.

When you take your shot you would then meter from the foreground and the ND grad would do it's job on the sky.
 
If you put the filter on before your shot the cameras meter should take care of everything.
 
mata.morrison said:
Hi all, I'm new to filters and need some guidance. I know what they can do as I can use the grad tool in LR however I want to try actual filters out.

I got myself a set of these last week and gave them a bash however I was on a beach with rough sea and they got covered in salt... bad move. Anyway I have just cleaned up and they are good to go again.

It's more so the grads I need help with as I have used welding glass a good few times now with good results. I know the set I have is cheap but I want to give them a go before I lay down serious money. So does anyone have tips on getting the exposures right, what do I expose for? The scene, lock in the settings add the grad? Or the other way round? A nice how to guide would be great if anyone has one/link/video?

Many thanks
Click to expand...

Mathew have you used them yet? Do they introduce any strong colour cast into your final shots?
 
a1ex2001 said:
If you put the filter on before your shot the cameras meter should take care of everything.
Click to expand...

Surely that depends where the camera is metering from. You need to meter from the clear part of the filter, otherwise your foreground will be overexposed,, reversing the object of a grad filter.
 
Matthew - im no expert but ive always been told to steer clear of cheap ebay filters - i was looking at that exact same set before i had filters explained to me.

Basically to be that cheap, they are made of cheap materials, which is never good when it comes to getting quality images. not only that but you never know that they are the rating they state they are - who's monitoring some cheap Chinese company making their own stuff?

another way it was explained to me was why would you go and spend £300-£400 on a 500D and another couple of hundred on the best quality optics to put a cheap crappy bit of plastic between your optics and your subject?

Makes sense huh? which is the reason i havent bought any yet!

I was suggested a few makes LEE being the best and incredibly expensive (upto £100 a filter!) next there is hitech which are a bit cheaper (£100 for 3 ND Filters) and there are also B+W (which does not stand for black and white, its the brand name) which are also quite pricey i believe but i havent looked into those.

I have been lead to believe a good place to start is the Cokin Z pro filter kits as they are the same size as LEE filters (100mm) and will accept all of the Lee and hitech filters, but the filter holder system is cheaper to begin with, LEE's foundation kit with holder without filters or adapter rings is £55, then you'd need adapter rings (cheap enough on ebay) before you even buy a filter.

My own intention is to buy the cokin z pro kit (although im sure with a little shopping around it can be found a little cheaper) and then use hitech filters until im at a skill level where i can justify £100 a filter, which will be some years away.

Hope this helps

P.S. If anyone disagrees with the above please feel free to correct me, as i say im no expert and if you know something i dont, please shout up because it will also be of benefit to me as the OP.
 
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dubzter said:
if you are using a grad to take the sky down to the same required exposure as the foreground then if you meter through the filter then you will have an even exposure across the frame............no?
Click to expand...

Like I said, it depends where you meter from. If you are using the centre point, and the centre point is in the shaded grad area, then the foreground will be wrong.

It will work if you meter through the filter on the clear part, but not through the graduated part
Obviously it also depends on what meeting mode you are using. Spot metering will be most effective to meter through the filter, whereas matrix or centre weighted might not give the best result.
 
TCR4x4 said:
Like I said, it depends where you meter from. If you are using the centre point, and the centre point is in the shaded grad area, then the foreground will be wrong.

It will work if you meter through the filter on the clear part, but not through the graduated part
Obviously it also depends on what meeting mode you are using. Spot metering will be most effective to meter through the filter, whereas matrix or centre weighted might not give the best result.
Click to expand...

Not sure I really follow your logic if you use evaluative metering with the filter in place you should get a balanced exposure as the camera will simply select the right exposure for the filtered scene.
 
mata.morrison said:
I got myself a set of these last week and gave them a bash however I was on a beach with rough sea and they got covered in salt... bad move. Anyway I have just cleaned up and they are good to go again.
Click to expand...

Hi Matt, I got myself a set of those too intending to pass them on to my grandson as I already have a set of ND & NDG. I've only had a quick try out with them but can't detect any colour cast or reduction in IQ and they appear to be accurate to within +/- 1/3 stop even when stacked.
 
DTS said:
Matthew - im no expert but ive always been told to steer clear of cheap ebay filters - i was looking at that exact same set before i had filters explained to me.

Basically to be that cheap, they are made of cheap materials, which is never good when it comes to getting quality images. not only that but you never know that they are the rating they state they are - who's monitoring some cheap Chinese company making their own stuff?

another way it was explained to me was why would you go and spend £300-£400 on a 500D and another couple of hundred on the best quality optics to put a cheap crappy bit of plastic between your optics and your subject?

Makes sense huh? which is the reason i havent bought any yet!

I was suggested a few makes LEE being the best and incredibly expensive (upto £100 a filter!) next there is hitech which are a bit cheaper (£100 for 3 ND Filters) and there are also B+W (which does not stand for black and white, its the brand name) which are also quite pricey i believe but i havent looked into those.

I have been lead to believe a good place to start is the Cokin Z pro filter kits as they are the same size as LEE filters (100mm) and will accept all of the Lee and hitech filters, but the filter holder system is cheaper to begin with, LEE's foundation kit with holder without filters or adapter rings is £55, then you'd need adapter rings (cheap enough on ebay) before you even buy a filter.

My own intention is to buy the cokin z pro kit (although im sure with a little shopping around it can be found a little cheaper) and then use hitech filters until im at a skill level where i can justify £100 a filter, which will be some years away.

Hope this helps

P.S. If anyone disagrees with the above please feel free to correct me, as i say im no expert and if you know something i dont, please shout up because it will also be of benefit to me as the OP.
Click to expand...

Dan, I'm not wanting to start an arguement with you but there are some sweeping statements here without any evidence to back them up. Inexpensive does not automatically equal poor quality ... it just means inexpensive. Using your analogy, why isn't the sub-£100 nifty-fifty absolute rubbish?

Likewise, just because a manufacturer decides he can live with a smaller profit margin than his established competitors it doesn't necessarily mean he's using inferior materials or processes. Maybe he's just being canny and buying his way into the market ... bit like a weekend warrior?

Having actually bought a set of these very filters for my grandson I can tell you they're every bit as good as my Lee filters, in terms of colour fidelity and optical clarity and as such represent exceptional value for money. I had no idea what they were going to be like when I bought them but figured £15 was worth a punt :) I figured that even if they weren't great my grandson would gain the experience of using filters and he would be better able to decide if landscape photography was something that interests him.
 
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dubzter said:
if you are using a grad to take the sky down to the same required exposure as the foreground then if you meter through the filter then you will have an even exposure across the frame............no?
Click to expand...

Yes.

a1ex2001 said:
Not sure I really follow your logic if you use evaluative metering with the filter in place you should get a balanced exposure as the camera will simply select the right exposure for the filtered scene.
Click to expand...

And yes again.

What the grad is doing is basically restoring the exposure balance, correcting a very bright sky. In that sense, it's no different to shooting any other normal scene, or perhaps how you would meter for a naturally dark thundery sky, ie, same as usual.

You should always check these things on the LCD/histogram anyway, because you need to see that the grad effect is what you want, and in the best position (slide up/down, rotate).

And if it's not, change it. You can attempt to calculate these things to an extent, but there's a lot of subjectivity. Do you want a natural looking sky, or something darker and more dramatic. Hard or soft grad line? The grad effect varies with focal length (stronger with wider-angle lenses) and is also stronger with higher f/numbers, too.

A normal exposure reading with the filter in place will give you a very good starting point.
 
When you get used to using grads you'll find you don't need to worry about metering for them, you get a feel for a scene and what is required. A couple of tips, live view makes aligning the graduation much easier and also the live histogram will help make sure you're not clipping your highlights, similarly make sure you've got blinkies turned on.
 
markmullen said:
When you get used to using grads you'll find you don't need to worry about metering for them, you get a feel for a scene and what is required. A couple of tips, live view makes aligning the graduation much easier and also the live histogram will help make sure you're not clipping your highlights, similarly make sure you've got blinkies turned on.
Click to expand...

Live view is very handy for this kind of thing, if you can see it clearly enough. Just make sure to also use the lens stop-down button (depth of field preview) to see the grad cut accurately, at the working aperture.

You do get a feel for these things, and a good way of getting ahead of the cuve with that is to shoot a plain wall with the grad in place, at different focal lengths and apertures, and note how it changes.
 
Well there is a lot in here to get to grips with thanks everyone. As I did say, I bought these to see if I would like using filters, no way was I going to blow £100+ on something I had never tried before, pointless in my experience.

The quality does seem to be good, better than expected thats for sure, there may be some colour coming through but nothing a quick tweak/custom WB wouldn't sort (used to this with my welding glass :P)

markmullen said:
When you get used to using grads you'll find you don't need to worry about metering for them, you get a feel for a scene and what is required. A couple of tips, live view makes aligning the graduation much easier and also the live histogram will help make sure you're not clipping your highlights, similarly make sure you've got blinkies turned on.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input Mark, I take it you use filters for your landscapes? I loved following your trip to Scotland, next time you should jump on the next ferry along and we could do a meet-up ;)
 
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a1ex2001 said:
Not sure I really follow your logic if you use evaluative metering with the filter in place you should get a balanced exposure as the camera will simply select the right exposure for the filtered scene.
Click to expand...

That's what I do now, 9 times out of 10 anyway, camera handles it fine.
 
mata.morrison said:
Thanks for the input Mark, I take it you use filters for your landscapes? I loved following your trip to Scotland, next time you should jump on the next ferry along and we could do a meet-up ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks, glad you liked the blog.

Yes, I use filters in 99% of my shots, I prefer to work that way than try and sort it out in PP.

I'll give you a shout next time I'm coming up.
 
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