ND Grads or HDR?

Woodsy said:
Right, but the plane of focus is not defined by the front element; You are saying it is however. I agree that the further the grad is from nodal point / closer it is to the plane of focus, the stronger the graduation appears. However, the fact that it happens to be further from the front element is merely a deduced result, not a causing factor.
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Woodsy, lenses have more than one nodal point. Which one would you like people to measure from?

And in the absence of that information, is it not every bit as relevant to use the front element as a useful point of reference (as every depth of field guide does)?
 
EdinburghGary said:
@HoppyUK
Just to add weight, without naming names, one of the members who thinks you "talk nonsense" has a degree in physics and "photonics", has a huge interest in all things optics. He really does know his stuff.

Gary.
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If anybody thinks I talk nonsense, or even irrelevance, I do wish they would say so. I really enjoy learning, and there is still a heck of a lot of that to be done.

I am happy to debate stuff with anybody. As a matter of fact, David Bailey still owes me a fiver from an old bet :lol:
 
Just to add my bit, I would definitely NOT start off with a 3 stop grad.

Two stops is definitely enough in most situations, and as I have suggested many times you can get very nice skies using a polariser and a 1 stop grad.

If you prefer over-the-top "effects" then go the whole hog - 3 stop grad, 10 stop ND, why not try a mauve starbust filter as well ........:eek:

Just thought I'd speak my mind for a change....

I also agree that a hard grad would be better witha tiny lens. Or any lens for that matter.;)
 
jerry12953 said:
Just to add my bit, I would definitely NOT start off with a 3 stop grad.

Two stops is definitely enough in most situations, and as I have suggested many times you can get very nice skies using a polariser and a 1 stop grad.

If you prefer over-the-top "effects" then go the whole hog - 3 stop grad, 10 stop ND, why not try a mauve starbust filter as well ........:eek:

Just thought I'd speak my mind for a change....

I also agree that a hard grad would be better witha tiny lens. Or any lens for that matter.;)
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Star Burst filters are a bit silly :D The reason I said 3 stops, you can reduce it by sliding upwards. You can't add to the two stop though?

I don't have a lot of experience with them so if 2 stop is better, then go with it.

Gary.
 
Mr Mike said:
I have been reading so much about ND filters and I have seen so many great examples of there use most recently with the Highlands/Skye trip threads. I am heading upto Skye, Applecross and Torridon in Aug this year and I am hoping to return with some very nice pics.

So from what i have read you should/need to spend a huge amount for filters or its a complete waste of time, screw on is a waste due to the middle of the filter not always been where you want it so as a free options why not just use HDR, its the same end result but a little longer or am i mistaking? When I say HDR i do not mean the OTT lets turn all the slides up I just mean very subtle adjustments which can almost look non HDR.

I have only been at this a year with my D40 so not expecting shots like the trip threads mentioned above but i do hope to achieve some good results. For landscapes i am currently stuck with the kit 18-55 lens, I do have hoya polarizer filter which i use. See an example of the HDR subtly i am refering too
below....(seems so much softer than before i uploaded to photobucket)

640d0a53.jpg


Can anyone give me some advice regarding this? :help:
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Just a thought on this image, MrMike. I would just try opening up the shadow areas a little. There's a slider for this in Lightroom and I think you can do it in photoshop as well. The version added by Dekhog looks OTT to me.
 
EdinburghGary said:
The trouble I see, several people who are stating things as fact, and as such, someone has to be wrong. This is extremely annoying, as you are left with a situation as to where those of us who don't understand how it works - have to "guess" who to trust.

For example if you are 90% sure you are right, say so. If you are absolutely certain without any shadow of a doubt, say so. Its the ambiguity knowing if you OR the others actually know for certain which makes this "learning" difficult.

Gary.
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Gary, I can't do that! I tend to believe that I am 100% right when I post factual stuff. Doesn't everybody? It's only in the light of other posts that I realise I'm not :eek: Of course if I'm just posting an opinion, I hope that comes across clearly enough.

What I will say is that I honestly try to own up when proved wrong.
 
EdinburghGary said:
The reason I said 3 stops, you can reduce it by sliding upwards. You can't add to the two stop though?

I don't have a lot of experience with them so if 2 stop is better, then go with it.

Gary.
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Re Starburst - just being mischievous....

Point taken about 3 stop soft. It might work. I prefer hard grads. But I've thought of trying a 1.5 stop soft. Maybe I'll take your point on board when deciding.
 
HoppyUK said:
Woodsy, lenses have more than one nodal point. Which one would you like people to measure from?

And in the absence of that information, is it not every bit as relevant to use the front element as a useful point of reference (as every depth of field guide does)?
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No, because like you say, the 50mm 1.8 (at least afaik in the Nikon case) is recessed into the lens housing by quite a distance. However, the front element on my 24-70 does not change it's distance from the filter when traversing the focal range. Now, with the 24-70, the way in which this lens works changes as you go from 24 through to 70mm, but the front nodal point is the same, regardless of whether all the light is captured by the sensor or not. I shall confess, those lenses where the front element is part of the focus assembly is beyond my knowledge. Either way, can you say with any certainty, that 50mm on my 24-70 will produce the same image (in terms of apparent graduation) as my 50 prime? Even though the distance to the front element from the filter is not the same? It probably just happens that DoF guides use the front element as it's easier for people (in general) to conceptualise?
 
Jim.R said:
The rate these questions are cropping up this week, I think we could justify a dedicated filters section of the forum.
Maybe at least some sort of FAQ/Tutorial/Getting Started Guide/HOW-TO etc...

(That's not having a go at the OP, just in case it came accross that way)
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I think this is a good idea, as I am a total n00b with filters.
 
EdinburghGary said:
one of the members <snip> has a degree in physics and "photonics"
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I feel like I need to sign up for one too, just to understand this thread. What the heck is photonics? Is it something I need to know about to use my GND's effectively?

:insert_whoosh_over_my_head_smilie:
 
68lbs said:
I feel like I need to sign up for one too, just to understand this thread. What the heck is photonics? Is it something I need to know about to use my GND's effectively?

:insert_whoosh_over_my_head_smilie:
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Apparently....
"* The science of photonics includes the generation, emission, transmission, modulation, signal processing, switching, amplification, detection and sensing of light."

Clever stuff :D

I don't get any of it either. This thread has me perplexed. I think safest bet is to take what you read with a pinch of salt, if too many people shout "I'm right - 100%", then it would be better not seeing any of the answers.

Gary.
 
Woodsy said:
No, because like you say, the 50mm 1.8 (at least afaik in the Nikon case) is recessed into the lens housing by quite a distance. However, the front element on my 24-70 does not change it's distance from the filter when traversing the focal range. Now, with the 24-70, the way in which this lens works changes as you go from 24 through to 70mm, but the front nodal point is the same, regardless of whether all the light is captured by the sensor or not. I shall confess, those lenses where the front element is part of the focus assembly is beyond my knowledge. Either way, can you say with any certainty, that 50mm on my 24-70 will produce the same image (in terms of apparent graduation) as my 50 prime? Even though the distance to the front element from the filter is not the same? It probably just happens that DoF guides use the front element as it's easier for people (in general) to conceptualise?
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Woodsy, the deciding factor in how sharply the graduation line appears is defined by how close the filter is positioned to the plane of focus. It's the distance from that point that matters, in relation to depth of field, not the distance from the front nodal point (or any other nodal point).

The position of any nodal points is not relevant to that measurement. Of course they are part of the creation of that plane of focus, but once established it is of no further bearing.
 
Now we have all lost our minds in the science of photonics here can we get back to basics please :thinking:

Right so I think the general opinion for me is to go for the hard edge nd grads for use on my D40 and kit lens, so blowing my really tight budget a little we are probably looking at......

http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10289

Can anyone give me a reason not to buy the above, they are better than cokin correct?


All i then require is a Cokin P holder and adapter, I know i can get these anywhere but with time wearing on and me wanting a new toy for the weekend i need to order the above filters before 3pm, will check if they have the holders and adapter and see costs but failing that i could go to jessops and collect as shown below?



http://www.jessops.com/online.store.../52mm P Series Adapter (P452)-14336/Show.html

and

http://www.jessops.com/online.store...ries Filter Holder Kit (E270)-14073/Show.html
 
Mr Mike said:
Just called the store regarding the filter kit and he thinks i shoud go with the soft edge:thinking::thinking: so confusing
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I agree. My hard edged filters leave a VERY OBVIOUS line where they descend to see through. Perfect for extremely straight horizons. The soft on the ther hand are much more gradual and allow a more natural feel for horizons which are all over the place. For landscapes you ideally want both, but with my shots, it's 90% soft grads.

Gary.
 
I would go for soft cut grads, and I think they are the more popular choice.

There is the argument that you can soften a hard cut by using a lower f/number, but you cannot harden a soft cut by using a higher f/number. While that is absolutely true, in practise you don't always have that much movement over the f/number either because it is fixed for reasons of exposure, or for depth of field requirements.

In which case, my guess would be that a soft cut will probably give you the effect you want more often, as it does for me. If it was a longer lens I would maybe say hard cut but that is an entirely personal decision (for the avoidance of doubt :D ).
 
Mike, would you like me to lend you a hard & soft grad so you can try it out first?
They're the HiTech's, so you can try before you buy, as it were.
 
Mr Mike said:
Now we have all lost our minds in the science of photonics here can we get back to basics please :thinking:

Right so I think the general opinion for me is to go for the hard edge nd grads for use on my D40 and kit lens, so blowing my really tight budget a little we are probably looking at......

http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10289

Can anyone give me a reason not to buy the above, they are better than cokin correct?


All i then require is a Cokin P holder and adapter, I know i can get these anywhere but with time wearing on and me wanting a new toy for the weekend i need to order the above filters before 3pm, will check if they have the holders and adapter and see costs but failing that i could go to jessops and collect as shown below?



http://www.jessops.com/online.store.../52mm P Series Adapter (P452)-14336/Show.html

and

http://www.jessops.com/online.store...ries Filter Holder Kit (E270)-14073/Show.html
Click to expand...

Just thought I'd mention that you can use the filters without a holder. It's easy with a tripod, possible without.
 
Thanks again guys, I have just ordered the soft edge kit....
http://www.teamworkphoto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=78_767_277&products_id=10288

Paid for Saturday delivery thinking i can just pop into one of the jessop stores for the cokin holder to discover they have all shut down except one which wont answer its phone so im not very happy.

Did everyone else know about this?

Jim.R - thanks for your offer really appreciate that but it looks like my research and advice from this forum has convinced me just to buy the kit and be done with it.

So all I need now is for Jessops to answer the phone and let me know if they have stock or not!
 
Give me the filters, all I want to do is not burn the sky out
I have seen some very nice HDR's on forums but I have seen a lot more that look like they belong in a comic.
 
Mr Mike said:
Bingo, my only local remaining Jessops has the adapter and holder instock, i will head there after work and pick them up then tomorrow my filters will arrive and i can go play.

Hope its worth all this effort ;)
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Haha, yes. If not, you can always try HDR. Some folks say it's better... :D
 
HDR can give you a truer representation of the image overall than ND Grads, because it doesn't just chop the picture into two halves. Just don't crank it up to the point where the image starts to lose its lifelike appearance.

If you're prepared to spend the time in Photoshop, you can always combine the best of both worlds by cutting & pasting an under-exposed sky from one frame over a correctly exposed foreground on another frame, then play about with the settings on each until you get it just right. That way you don't get those rather tell-tale ND Grad dark bands appearing across the tops of objects in the foreground.
 
Well after a few days going off my head trying to make this decision its just jumped up and kicked me in the ass!

I called Jessops non stop since 14:30 today to confirm but they failed to answer so i spoke with the main Jessops number and they confirmed both holder and adapter to be in stock at that store, they actually showed two. So as you know i ordered the ND kit with Saturday delivery at £9-50 knowning i could go get the other bits. Sneaked out of work early and battled past the traffic to get all the way across to centre of Aberdeen to visit the store. On arrival 2 guys what looked like they were doing nothing didnt even say Hi until prompted, i then asked why they couldnt answer the phone in the 2.5hrs of calling and they looked at each other and said there was only the 2 of them so they couldnt because of customers. I then asked where the so called customers were and was given blank expressions again. Anyway asked for my bits to reach checkout and be faced with a total twice as much as i expected, well they gave me a holder kit complete with 67mm adapter and sunset filter, I asked for the normal one and was told we dont have another kit. Little argument later i remembered the item number and when he typed in it appeared on his screen, agian showing 2 in stock so away he went and returned saying no they dont have it. Sorry! I paid the £11 for the adapter and left to find a traffic warden putting a fixed penalty on my car :bang::bang:

So there we are £10 for Saturday delivery and £30 penalty if pay within 14 days, £40 out of pocked and now the filters are no good to me tomorrow cos i have no holder. I was thinking of a budget of £40 max and finally convinced myself to spend a little more to end up now paying more than double!!

I am going to call and complain on Monday because i spent 2.5hrs confiming the battle to the centre of town was defo worth doing and the Sat delivery which i would never pay for was worth it just to let me play tomorrow. Regardless of that they had the same attitude issues at Christmas time and i almost comlplained then but decided after calming down it was not worth it but this time i will not change my mind.

Is there any wonder Jessops have shut down all their stores with an attitude like that!

Ironically as it is if I had paid for the kit he was offering it would have been way cheaper than it now works out and i would have had a holder for tomorrow

Right breath......ah....feel better now Rant over
 
Just spoke with the Manager at the Dundee store who has responsibility for Aberdeen also, he has apologised on behalf of Jessops and sent me out the holder kit free of charge due to the inconvenience. He will follow up with the staff ensure customer training is put in place and feels not answering the phone over a period of 2.5hrs is unacceptable.


I wish all Jessops stores had customer skills like I experienced today.

Anyway i will have all my kit on Monday so looking forward to giving it a try.
 
Mr Mike said:
Well after a few days going off my head trying to make this decision its just jumped up and kicked me in the ass!

I called Jessops non stop since 14:30 today to confirm but they failed to answer so i spoke with the main Jessops number and they confirmed both holder and adapter to be in stock at that store, they actually showed two. So as you know i ordered the ND kit with Saturday delivery at £9-50 knowning i could go get the other bits. Sneaked out of work early and battled past the traffic to get all the way across to centre of Aberdeen to visit the store. On arrival 2 guys what looked like they were doing nothing didnt even say Hi until prompted, i then asked why they couldnt answer the phone in the 2.5hrs of calling and they looked at each other and said there was only the 2 of them so they couldnt because of customers. I then asked where the so called customers were and was given blank expressions again. Anyway asked for my bits to reach checkout and be faced with a total twice as much as i expected, well they gave me a holder kit complete with 67mm adapter and sunset filter, I asked for the normal one and was told we dont have another kit. Little argument later i remembered the item number and when he typed in it appeared on his screen, agian showing 2 in stock so away he went and returned saying no they dont have it. Sorry! I paid the £11 for the adapter and left to find a traffic warden putting a fixed penalty on my car :bang::bang:

So there we are £10 for Saturday delivery and £30 penalty if pay within 14 days, £40 out of pocked and now the filters are no good to me tomorrow cos i have no holder. I was thinking of a budget of £40 max and finally convinced myself to spend a little more to end up now paying more than double!!

I am going to call and complain on Monday because i spent 2.5hrs confiming the battle to the centre of town was defo worth doing and the Sat delivery which i would never pay for was worth it just to let me play tomorrow. Regardless of that they had the same attitude issues at Christmas time and i almost comlplained then but decided after calming down it was not worth it but this time i will not change my mind.

Is there any wonder Jessops have shut down all their stores with an attitude like that!

Ironically as it is if I had paid for the kit he was offering it would have been way cheaper than it now works out and i would have had a holder for tomorrow

Right breath......ah....feel better now Rant over
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Sad story....:shake:

Still, a filter holder is not just for Christmas...... good luck when you get it all sorted.
 
Hawker said:
Here we go again, you've just lit the fuse, time to get the popcorn and sit back. I can tell you what you'll get out this thread; one side will say bin the grads, the other will say get it right in camera (then there will be a little bit of name calling in the middle ;) ). There is no right answer do what you feel comfortable with, for me, I use both and do what I feel is right at the time
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Haha just had a read how right you was Hawker:lol:
 
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