Need a little help on lighting 70+ people in a dark room

ajax_andy

ajax_andy

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Just wondering if anyone had any links to lighting set ups for large groups where the ambient light will be quite low?

I've been booked to shoot a 90th birthday party at a local village hall and the granddaughters have requested a large group shot of everyone together... and there will be about 70 people, maybe more.

I'm kind of thinking 2 flashes at the front with bounce umbrellas (one either side of me) and maybe one behind the group to give a little seperation lighting from the background. However I've not shot such a large group in such low light before so would like to get a bit of advice, or see some lighting setups just to check I'll be doing everything right :)
 
When you say 'flashes' that can mean a host of things. To get an even spread of light across a large group you are going to need powerful lights- 600w or so- set well back.

A group of 70 all with a common interest is potentially a very good earner, and worth investing some time and trouble in to get right, let alone all the other sub group shots and candids you will shoot during the event.
 
Bayrunner said:
When you say 'flashes' that can mean a host of things. To get an even spread of light across a large group you are going to need powerful lights- 600w or so- set well back.

A group of 70 all with a common interest is potentially a very good earner, and worth investing some time and trouble in to get right, let alone all the other sub group shots and candids you will shoot during the event.
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Tbh I was meaning strobes... i have 2 x Nissin Di866 MK II's and a cheap Yongnou that I was planning on using as the seperation light.

Do you think I'll struggle with this setup even if I use what ambient there is to add to the overall exposure?
 
What is the ambient light from, windows or other lights?
If other lights you then you could gel your flash heads to match, but you might get a little drop in power.
As Bayrunner said some studio heads would be better.
Is it possible to go the the venue and do a quick set up. Take a friend along and have him/her stand in different places keeping the camera at the front and see how much fall off you get.
Another idea is to get some large reflectors also and bounce more light around.
 
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Apologies if this is too simplistic.. but its just shouting out at me..

Take them all outside ...I cant imagine you will have a clean (clutter free) area for 70 people inside... Village hall you say.. with a village green ?
 
Sorry I should have said the group shot will probably be at night... if I can do it a little earlier though I could do it outside possibly... good shout actually as if I time it well the lighting outside would be soft and lovely.

If not I found this on Strobist 101 which is a great tutorial for a 3 light setup as I planned but slightly better thought out :)

http://strobist.blogspot.co.uk/2009/10/qna-big-group-in-big-dark-room.html
 
It all depends on the venue, particularly the ceiling height and colour, to get even light coverage over such a large group. Outdoors is a good suggestion, and the days are long at this time of year.

Even if you can get it right though, everyone is going to be very small. Suggest Plan B to break it up into smaller groups.
 
HoppyUK said:
It all depends on the venue, particularly the ceiling height and colour, to get even light coverage over such a large group. Outdoors is a good suggestion, and the days are long at this time of year.

Even if you can get it right though, everyone is going to be very small. Suggest Plan B to break it up into smaller groups.
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I will probably do a few smaller groups too but the brief is for a big group shot as all the family are spread over the world so are never in the same place at the same time.

I'll scout the venue before the shoot and suggest doing the big shot outside if there's room... probably the easiest option tbh.
 
i would go with 3 flashes each bouncing into a large reflective umbrella 1 pointing into each corner of the group and 1 fired above your head , f5-8 on a wide lens iso bumped up a tad for better light sensitivity and go from there. chances are 70 people wont have too much patience to be hanging around for long. shoot it in raw and brighten areas if needed.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Flash as far behind you as you can.

Why complicate this stuff?
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and that will evenly and properly light up 70 people in a dim room ? and everyone else in this thread are nuts ? :)
 
KIPAX said:
and that will evenly and properly light up 70 people in a dim room ? and everyone else in this thread are nuts ? :)
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I'm not going to comment on everybody else's mental state (reading other threads round here it seems the heat is getting to some people) but yeah, should work.

Further the light is away, the more even the illumination. Fewer lights = fewer shadows. One light way back will give you a better chance than many lighting patterns.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I'm not going to comment on everybody else's mental state (reading other threads round here it seems the heat is getting to some people) but yeah, should work.

Further the light is away, the more even the illumination. Fewer lights = fewer shadows. One light way back will give you a better chance than many lighting patterns.
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The link to strobist suggested one bare flash behind the tog (by a fair bit) and to the left (maybe 45 degrees off axis), one behind the group on the opposite side with same distance and power from seperation, and one next to the tog as fill.

Slightly more complex but similar to your theory but will a little fill and seperation
 
ajax_andy said:
The link to strobist suggested one bare flash behind the tog (by a fair bit) and to the left (maybe 45 degrees off axis), one behind the group on the opposite side with same distance and power from seperation, and one next to the tog as fill.

Slightly more complex but similar to your theory but will a little fill and seperation
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Swings and roundabouts.

Putting the flash at 45 degrees solves a couple of problems (glasses, small possibility of redeye if it isn't high enough, adds a little modelling) and introduces a couple of others (deep shadows on the opposite side, lack of light hitting the background). The problems it introduces are addressed by the fill and sep lights.

I've certainly got no argument with his lighting pattern but in most rooms with most groups it would end up reasonably similar to mine. In some special cases it's going to be far superior (especially if the room is vast or has dark wood panelling or a really messy back wall). But if you're tight for room the last thing you want to do is put a light behind a crowd of people. Somebody will back into it. Note that he says you'll need at least one assistant to pull this off.

The thing that's absolutely right in that article is that half way down it says "your light is set - now what?". Half of this shot ain't lighting.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Swings and roundabouts.

Putting the flash at 45 degrees solves a couple of problems (glasses, small possibility of redeye if it isn't high enough, adds a little modelling) and introduces a couple of others (deep shadows on the opposite side, lack of light hitting the background). The problems it introduces are addressed by the fill and sep lights.

I've certainly got no argument with his lighting pattern but in most rooms with most groups it would end up reasonably similar to mine. In some special cases it's going to be far superior (especially if the room is vast or has dark wood panelling or a really messy back wall). But if you're tight for room the last thing you want to do is put a light behind a crowd of people. Somebody will back into it. Note that he says you'll need at least one assistant to pull this off.

The thing that's absolutely right in that article is that half way down it says "your light is set - now what?". Half of this shot ain't lighting.
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You don't really need an assistant although running back and forth to change the power of the seperation light will be a bit of a nightmare i'll admit.

Good point about the space issue though as haven't checked out the venue which I need to do.

I'm glad I posted this thread as now I have 3 options to play with:

1) Go outside (preferable)
2) Strobist 3 light setup
3) 1 light on full power and far back

I'm pretty happy with having 3 options as if plan A fails I have B and C now to work with (y)
 
If it wasn't a complete fag to do, would there be any mileage in suspending a large area of cheap white material above the crowd if the ceiling was too high or dark. I suppose it would come down to cost/time but technicaly would it help.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Flash as far behind you as you can.

Why complicate this stuff?
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That's the idea... As long as the flash has enough power in the first place. Think OP will struggle to do a group of 70 well with 3 Speedlight type flashes.

The groups idea is good- sell them a small album and good margin.
 
Good lord oh christmas, what a fuss! One decently powerful on-camera speedlite, wind up the iso to 400 or over, arrange the groups, bang away....... (I've done larger wedding groups that way in a church when it's hissing down with rain outside with no problems at all) - KISS (keep it simple!)

Stairs are good, either arrange them up a stairway, or if it's possible "shoot down" on them from above:cool:
 
Organnyx said:
Good lord oh christmas, what a fuss! One decently powerful on-camera speedlite, wind up the iso to 400 or over, arrange the groups, bang away....... (I've done larger wedding groups that way in a church when it's hissing down with rain outside with no problems at all) - KISS (keep it simple!)

Stairs are good, either arrange them up a stairway, or if it's possible "shoot down" on them from above:cool:
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Are you saying you could light 70 people in a group with one on camera speedlight? Wouldn't that lead to the those at the front being very overexposed, or those further back under exposed?

I'm planning on standing on a step ladder to get some elevation as there probably wont be any stairs in the village hall
 
Good idea to use a step ladder - even with a pretty wide angle lens the difference in distance between the lens and the subjects is not going to be enormous - if you think about it the "fall off" is going to be pretty much as great "front to back" if you use extra "off camera" lighting.
In practice, if you've got a 3 or 4 tier big group, you shouldn't have any problems at all - use the stepladder (or a chair), and if possible "curve" it a touch (so that the ends of the groups are closer to you)
We used to do enormous groups at big national functions in local venues, and when we used stairs, they could be 20 stairs high and deep, they were still fine (we'd stand on a chair about 10' back from the bottom stair)...... Here's a link to one of the actual staircases we used - http://www.planningyourwedding.co.uk/ImageLibrary/Img346.JPG
 
While I was Googling, I found this, taken on that selfsame staircase - http://www.flickr.com/photos/daves_portfolio/galleries/72157626859293939/#photo_5094309180 - (not by me) - they are using about 14 of the steps, and there is some discernable falloff front to back, but if you ignore the back row, it gives you an idea of what it's like in practice (arrange it right, your group would be using half that depth or less from the camera.......) - hope that makes sense.......
 
I've shot groups of 300-400+ perfectly and evenly lit front to back indoors.

You have a number of problems.

Your group - how are you going to arrange them. Are you width restricted? Fours row of 20 would be my preferred - sat, kneel, sat on chair, stood. Four rows needs F8 minimum, preferably f11, to hold aperture front to back, which requires power, which you don't have. You can't rely on the weather, so you can't rely on ambient (which still needs powerful frontal fill anyway).

When I shoot a large group, I use:

  • Three lights (two 600Ws and one 1000Ws, all at full, to give me a decent aperture)
  • each with just reflectors (large light modifiers are pretty useless at distance and will suck your power, and you need every drop to hold DoF),
  • push them back as far as they will go to even the light from front to back,
  • push them as high as your stands will go to negate the Inverse square law on the group, and drop shadows more acutely (I use four meter stands and sandbag the **** out of them)
  • Have one above my head, one left, one right - but not too far as you don't want shadows cast behind each at too great an angle and running down the middle of someones head.
  • Get your camera back as far as it will go to use as long a lens as you can to avoid distortion (no one will thank you for widening their heads on the edges), though stitching from two frames closer works well but distorts the BG (better than distorting people!) and also gives you megapixels to spare.
  • Shoot from high to improve DoF by shooting off a step ladder, effectively narrowing the angle of the group to the angle of your sensor. Being twenty feet up a step ladder with 400 people staring at you is nerve wracking. I might superclamp the camera to the ladder in the future.
  • Curve your group (with the seating) slightly to help your sensor out.
  • Radio Triggers with new batteries on each and every light and run them optical too.
  • use two cameras - swap them half way through your allotted one minute (before they die of boredom) to minimise cam troubles.

If I was in your position, I would beg, borrow and steal every speedlite I could (or better borrow a decent studio flash) and run it high above your head, back as far as you can and hope for the best.
 
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I agree with most of what Kris says for shooting a massive group (of hundreds) - it's exactly the way we used do such things, BUT we're talking about a relatively tiny group of 70 people, and there is absolutely no need to go over the top - as I've pointed out, a carefully arranged 4 deep group can be very adequately shot with one on-camera speedlight - I've done it many, many times, mostly back in the days of film before the luxury of being able to wind up the iso on the camera.
No photoshopping needed, no truckloads of equipment, just knowing your flash and how long it takes to fully recharge between hefty discharges (I've been known to take the camera from my eye, point to the flash, and say "talk amongst yourselves, it's recovering from lighting you lot"), by which time they're re-grinned, and ready for more......... I said it before - KISS!
 
If you're going to do it, be a pro and do it right.

One flash on camera will restrict you

- light falling off front to back due to the inverse square law
- light falling off left to right due to the isl
- not being anywhere near enough light to give you aperture to hold focus front to back without running at iso-silly
 
I was a pro for 20 years, and my advice is born of practical experience (mostly garnered back in the days of film, when things were far more difficult).......
Be a pro, and don't over-complicate things! (You're far more likely to get in a pickle if you do) - for a well-posed group of 70 people, a single speedlight will do you well.........
 
OP - you know what, above poster is right, bang a 270ex on your camera and whack it out.

Sorted.

What do I care?
 
Organnyx said:
I was a pro for 20 years, and my advice is born of practical experience (mostly garnered back in the days of film, when things were far more difficult).......
Be a pro, and don't over-complicate things! (You're far more likely to get in a pickle if you do) - for a well-posed group of 70 people, a single speedlight will do you well.........
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No it won't.
 
You've tried? I have, and I know it works.....

Lets be pedantically accurate - yes you could go Kris' route with a couple of sodding great studio flash, up high, well back, - you could perhaps bang a large light (or lights) off a white ceiling, you could take them outside and take the shot illuminated by a Nightsun attached to a helicopter to which you're strapped.......

But down here in the real word, it's a 90th birthday celebration in a village hall.....I've had more than my fair share of village halls and photography therein - arrange the group right (in a rough semicircle, probably 4 deep, one row sitting), stand on a chair, make them smile and hit the button.........(several times) - you'll find that all the theorising about fall-off isn't that relevant in the real world, and doesn't mar the results - it's quick, it's simple, and I can assure you that it does work.........:D
 
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Stuck in the groove are we?

It is a technique that I used many times, over many years, with complete success - I didn't have queues of irate clients grizzling about the results - I would suggest that YOU try it for yourself, because you are obviously not going to believe me on principle......:D
 
Organnyx said:
Stuck in the groove are we?

It is a technique that I used many times, over many years, with complete success - I didn't have queues of irate clients grizzling about the results - I would suggest that YOU try it for yourself, because you are obviously not going to believe me on principle......:D
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Particular reason you won't give an example then? It's getting a bit boring now Martin, anyone would think you were all mouth and no trousers or something
 
Kris said:
If I was in your position, I would beg, borrow and steal every speedlite I could (or better borrow a decent studio flash) and run it high above your head, back as far as you can and hope for the best.
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Actually, the above was my specific advice to the OP. If one location light on one stand gets you in a 'pickle', and if your images look no different to aunty Flossys, stop pretending you're a pro.

For all I care, you can take it on your effing ifone.
 
"Particular reason you won't give an example then?" - well yes, several - first of all, I'm stuffed if I'm crawling about in the archives looking through negatives and scanning them all for the benefit of some forum warrior who's obviously never actually tried what I'm suggesting (and found out it works!)
I have nothing to prove, I no longer accept payment for my photography, what I shoot I do for fun, friends and family, but I do have a lot of practical experience in "social photography" and am happy to pass it on for the benefit of those who are new to the business - I'm not above learning something new, sadly there would appear to be some amongst us who's minds have shut with a resounding clang..........:D
 
Organnyx said:
"Particular reason you won't give an example then?" - well yes, several - first of all, I'm stuffed if I'm crawling about in the archives looking through negatives and scanning them all for the benefit of some forum warrior who's obviously never actually tried what I'm suggesting (and found out it works!)
I have nothing to prove, I no longer accept payment for my photography, what I shoot I do for fun, friends and family, but I do have a lot of practical experience in "social photography" and am happy to pass it on for the benefit of those who are new to the business - I'm not above learning something new, sadly there would appear to be some amongst us who's minds have shut with a resounding clang..........:D
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All good Martin :)

But I'm easily confused. Isn't this your twitter account https://mobile.BANNED/Organnyx? I'm probably wrong - I normally am, cause there are some weddings on the linked sites so it would be easy to pull an example and shut me up. Like I said I'm sure I'm wrong
 
I really am not going to play your silly games - you seem intent in trying to bully and hector me for some reason - I suggest you get a life!
 
Organnyx said:
You've tried? I have, and I know it works.....

Lets be pedantically accurate - yes you could go Kris' route with a couple of sodding great studio flash, up high, well back, - you could perhaps bang a large light (or lights) off a white ceiling, you could take them outside and take the shot illuminated by a Nightsun attached to a helicopter to which you're strapped.......

But down here in the real word, it's a 90th birthday celebration in a village hall.....I've had more than my fair share of village halls and photography therein - arrange the group right (in a rough semicircle, probably 4 deep, one row sitting), stand on a chair, make them smile and hit the button.........(several times) - you'll find that all the theorising about fall-off isn't that relevant in the real world, and doesn't mar the results - it's quick, it's simple, and I can assure you that it does work.........:D
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Organnyx said:
I really am not going to play your silly games - you seem intent in trying to bully and hector me for some reason - I suggest you get a life!
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You base your comments on this website on having been a professional photographer for 'over twenty years' and that your 'advice is born of practical experience (mostly garnered back in the days of film, when things were far more difficult).....'

Having looked at your website a couple of days ago I would conclude that most of your clients were either blind or have never seen a photograph before if they're as happy as you say they are.

In the three weddings that you have online all of the group shots are pretty awful - and that's being kind.

There's no thought as to group disposition, posing or flash fall off. The DoF is inadequate on most of them and the flash is utterly lost (in the group shots that is- in the couples and individual shots you've microwaved them).

Why am I being a tad unpleasant to you?

Because your advice is utterly tonk and your photos prove that you don't know what you're talking about.

Your frequently vaunted boast of not needing post processing and getting right in camera in a single shot is a lie. You take multiple (and I mean 5+ frames) bursts of single portraits and groups and the WB and exposure are frequently off.

The worst sin, however, is that you've published all this stuff so that people can see it. You haven't even bothered to weed out the blinkers in a wedding shoot!

I shoot groups of 30 to 100 every week. Once the figure passes 30 or so, I drop the speedlites and move to proper location lighting.

If you want to go with a single light solution, then Jonathan is spot on. Get a decently powered light up high and at a reasonable distance.

If you want to be more creative, then Kris is right.

Personally, in this situation, I'd go with one 400-600Ws light on a 3m stand slightly camera left and get myself at least 5 steps off the ground.
 
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Organnyx said:
you'll find that all the theorising about fall-off isn't that relevant in the real world, and doesn't mar the results - it's quick, it's simple, and I can assure you that it does work.........:D
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Damn, looks like I will have to throw away the Inverse Square Law now - of course that is not theoretical fall off, it is physics, unless of course light reacts differently in your universe

I can assure that I am the last emperor of china but that does not make it so, but if I could show you proof that would be very different - photography is a visual medium and visual proof would prove what you are saying in this instance.

Mike
 
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