New boiler time :(

If you get a good fitter from bg they will be as good as you can get. BG used to be very expensive but they are so much more competitive now and often do deals not many others can compete with. I do not work for bg and they are in fact competition but I do tell it as I see it. The bad old days of bg are pretty much over.
 
gerry s said:
Glowworm do a white flue as well.
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They were perhaps being nudging on WB or Vaillant .................though to be fair to the guy he did say they can supply a range of other brands......but as our decision making was driven(?) by the need for a white flue , were we steered to Vaillant???
gerry s said:
If you get a good fitter from bg they will be as good as you can get. BG used to be very expensive but they are so much more competitive now and often do deals not many others can compete with. I do not work for bg and they are in fact competition but I do tell it as I see it. The bad old days of bg are pretty much over.
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Thanks for the insight :) I did ask him if he was direct employed by BG, yes he was, so what about the installation teams. He advised that they fall into two categories....direct employed and "BG Approved"....who were mostly ex BG guys who went freelance but now work indirectly for BG hence the 'approved' status :thinking:

PS are now part time gas installer? as I note you have have a photographic 'side hustle' ;)
 
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JonathanRyan said:
Thanks. That's exactly the kind of idiocy I expected.

Don't fit a new boiler or be unable to sell your house. For absolutely no reason. Every day, building regs get stupider.

No doubt their friends in insurance will be happy to sell a pointless indemnity which seems to be the point.
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I suspect it’s more a government energy saving initiative to lower household fuel consumption and comply with some EU or global legal requirement or other. Probably driven by some fat cat minister with a big stake in a TRV factory.
 
It’s to comply with part L of building regs and became obligatory in June. it is estimated to use 18% less gas I think. The main reason for not being able to fit trvs is in the case of one pipe systems and the only solution is to convert to 2 pipe system. Unfortunately there is no way around this.
 
I quite like our Vailant its an ECO TEC PRO 28 and its been doing its thing for about 14 years now , its had 2 diverter valves , common fault , a few rubber pipes inside that apparently get a bit gummed up and it has had the pressure vessel recharged a few times , we have local service and support at £12/month very happy with it.
 
I wonder if TRV's would have an impact on an EPC rating and if so, how much?
 
It would definately get you a better score but i have no idea by how much.
 
gerry s said:
It’s to comply with part L of building regs and became obligatory in June. it is estimated to use 18% less gas I think. The main reason for not being able to fit trvs is in the case of one pipe systems and the only solution is to convert to 2 pipe system. Unfortunately there is no way around this.
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Yes. I think TRVs are a great idea. If you don't have them and can easily fit them they are pretty much a no brainer. They cost about 15 quid each and while you are replacing a boiler they would add maybe 100 - 150 to the job. They are likely to save you that in a year. So pretty much everybody who can fit them should have them soon.

My problem is with stupid legislation saying if I want a new boiler (or ever to sell my house) then I must fit them- regardless of practicality or cost.

Here's a rad valve in my house

rad valve.jpg

Note the
  1. Microbore (a bit annoying)
  2. Lovely wooden floor which is actually laid over concrete - this runs seamlessly throughout the ground floor
  3. Yorkshire Imperial valves which make pipework "so easy" because flow and return sit on the same side so they didn't have to channel the concrete in the 80s.
The only way to add a TRV is to run a microbore pipe (there's no point in 15 mm) along the bottom of a new radiator which takes about half a day for each rad and looks ugly. If there was any other way to do it, we'd have done it by now but it will cost > 3k just for the ground floor. There's another option upstairs due to wooden floors but it still cost about £500 to do 2 rads recently. We have the heating on for < 3 months a year.

Building regs are becoming a real profit centre for plumbers (and electricians - and don't get me started on fire doors....)
 
JonathanRyan said:
Yes. I think TRVs are a great idea. If you don't have them and can easily fit them they are pretty much a no brainer. They cost about 15 quid each and while you are replacing a boiler they would add maybe 100 - 150 to the job. They are likely to save you that in a year. So pretty much everybody who can fit them should have them soon.

My problem is with stupid legislation saying if I want a new boiler (or ever to sell my house) then I must fit them- regardless of practicality or cost.

Here's a rad valve in my house

View attachment 403792

Note the
  1. Microbore (a bit annoying)
  2. Lovely wooden floor which is actually laid over concrete - this runs seamlessly throughout the ground floor
  3. Yorkshire Imperial valves which make pipework "so easy" because flow and return sit on the same side so they didn't have to channel the concrete in the 80s.
The only way to add a TRV is to run a microbore pipe (there's no point in 15 mm) along the bottom of a new radiator which takes about half a day for each rad and looks ugly. If there was any other way to do it, we'd have done it by now but it will cost > 3k just for the ground floor. There's another option upstairs due to wooden floors but it still cost about £500 to do 2 rads recently. We have the heating on for < 3 months a year.

Building regs are becoming a real profit centre for plumbers (and electricians - and don't get me started on fire doors....)
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Ah, now I understand your problem. That’s never going to be cheap or easy to update.

I think we must’ve got lucky as our house is a late 70s build with the same set up as you… concrete ground floor overlaid with parquet continuous through two big rooms plus T&G chipboard boards upstairs (a complete pain in the backside to lift to do any work). We’ve got a 15mm two pipe conventional set up though so TRVs are an option. I’m gradually adding them to each room and I’m also upgrading the old Barlo radiators to something more efficient , looks like you’ve got them too?
 
What made me aware of the TRV thing was the last boiler I had replaced was for work, in a building approaching the end of its lease, and feeding 33 radiators…we managed to find an engineer who would do it without doing all rads but it took some digging…
 
Don't know if I'm too late, but after saying we would replace it for over 5 years, I did so three weeks ago

It was eventually down to a choice between Wiesmann and Worcester Bosch.

After many many opinions, the winner by a large majority was the Worcester Bosch

Phoned a few local companies, who seemed to be doing me a favour to come out and quote, I went online and got it from Heatable.

Pre-sales service was excellent, fitting was excellent, very neat and professional job.

Only small moan was I had to chase them to get confirmation that it had been registered with Worcester for the 10 year guarantee, and to get the building regs declaration. But I now have them.

They also give 2 years interest free payment, which adds up to a meaningful amount in interest gained :)

They also had a £50 off voucher from a price that was already good.


The condensing boiler so good story is a bit of a farce to me, as most often the boilers are not operating in condensing mode, however it will still save me around £10 a month with careful setting.
I will also be saving the BG homecare fee, so in effect the boiler will be more than free over its 10 year guarantee period.

A bigger saving comes from features on the ESi thermostat.

BGs price was more than 1 1/2 times the price, with half the guarantee!
 
Interesting to hear that BG are still expensive after some of the previous comments in the thread.

To get a condensing boiler working properly you have to drop the return temperature setting down to 60 C or even lower. It’ll take longer for the house to warm up because the rads will be running cooler but you’re using the boiler at peak efficiency and it should reduce the running costs overall. If you’re getting a lot of moisture out of the flue (a big plume of steam) it usually points to the boiler running too hot/ inefficiently.
 
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boogie man said:
Interesting to hear that BG are still expensive after some of the previous comments in the thread.

To get a condensing boiler working properly you have to drop the return temperature setting down to 60 C or even lower. It’ll take longer for the house to warm up because the rads will be running cooler but you’re using the boiler at peak efficiency and it should reduce the running costs overall. If you’re getting a lot of moisture out of the flue (a big plume of steam) it usually points to the boiler running too hot/ inefficiently.
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BG have always been expensive, with a short warranty, and at one time they tried to insist you had a maintenance contract (that was stopped a few years ago) so you were paying for the warranty!

Yes, they start to condense at a return temp of 57C usually, and some are only fully efficient at around 37C return temp.

I have my heating temp very low to help, but it also has additional benefits like avoiding wasting energy on overshoot, but having a TPI capable controller also helps to keep the temperature constant.

Many people, including some in the trade, will tell you that a plume of steam tells you in is in condensing mode !

My only complaint with the Worcester is that I can't hear if it is running or not :)
 
boogie man said:
Interesting to hear that BG are still expensive after some of the previous comments in the thread.

To get a condensing boiler working properly you have to drop the return temperature setting down to 60 C or even lower. It’ll take longer for the house to warm up because the rads will be running cooler but you’re using the boiler at peak efficiency and it should reduce the running costs overall. If you’re getting a lot of moisture out of the flue (a big plume of steam) it usually points to the boiler running too hot/ inefficiently.
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That's interesting, I don't run mine very hot but I'm going to double check now. (y)
 
gman said:
That's interesting, I don't run mine very hot but I'm going to double check now. (y)
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You can get a digital thermometer with the probe on a wire about 3' long, which will let you watch the return temperature (may be a menu item on the boiler too, but too much hassle)
Sometimes the biggest problem is over speced boilers, if you have 5 radiators in the house and a 30kW boiler, it's not going to work :)
Newer boilers have a better modulation ratio than old ones which can also help
 
Sangoma said:
You can get a digital thermometer with the probe on a wire about 3' long, which will let you watch the return temperature (may be a menu item on the boiler too, but too much hassle)
Sometimes the biggest problem is over speced boilers, if you have 5 radiators in the house and a 30kW boiler, it's not going to work :)
Newer boilers have a better modulation ratio than old ones which can also help
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It's a WB Greenstar 37CDI with a magnaclean filter that is serviced every year. Let me think about number of radiators... 11 I think there are. 10 big and one half size. They've all got TRV's. I've not load balanced it all though.
 
Great to see the insights and info.

We have 7 radiators and without checking the quotes I can't recall the capacities of the quoted boilers.

Neither quoting party suggested that our current Danfoss room thermostat needs replacing/updating.

I am awaiting a little further feedback from both BG and the local independent company in regard to the slightly revised positioning and a potential need to get some, not related to the boiler operation, wiring sorted out first. There is a wiring conduit in the wall behind the boiler and the revised positioning and the venting may or may not require us to making a wiring change....... depending on the boiler chosen & it's venting position :thinking:
 
One thing that you may want to consider is another thermostat used as an indoor frost stat. Frost stats are normally installed when the boiler is outside to stop freezing when the boiler is off but one indoors does have advantages.
If we go away during a cold spell I can put the controller to switch the heating on the day we come back with the normal stat set to 20 degrees, or what temp we want, so the house is warm when we get back.
The second stat is set to 16 degrees and will switch the boiler on if the inside temp drops below that even though the controller timer has the boiler set to OFF.
We normally have the heating OFF at night but the second stat switches the heating on if the inside temp drops below 16 degrees.
Maybe not a great advantage for you but if you are having work done anyway it may be a cheapish extra.
 
Suvv said:
One thing that you may want to consider is another thermostat used as an indoor frost stat. Frost stats are normally installed when the boiler is outside to stop freezing when the boiler is off but one indoors does have advantages.
If we go away during a cold spell I can put the controller to switch the heating on the day we come back with the normal stat set to 20 degrees, or what temp we want, so the house is warm when we get back.
The second stat is set to 16 degrees and will switch the boiler on if the inside temp drops below that even though the controller timer has the boiler set to OFF.
We normally have the heating OFF at night but the second stat switches the heating on if the inside temp drops below 16 degrees.
Maybe not a great advantage for you but if you are having work done anyway it may be a cheapish extra.
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Thanks for the insights:)

FWIW
Re Danfoss thermostat or current controller timer (separate timer & 1 hour boost settings for HW & HW) were deemed to need to be replaced.

Oh, checking the BG quote it is, for our 7 rads house, is for a 15kW boiler. NB will look again at the rating of the independents quote.
 
Box Brownie said:
Great to see the insights and info.

We have 7 radiators and without checking the quotes I can't recall the capacities of the quoted boilers.

Neither quoting party suggested that our current Danfoss room thermostat needs replacing/updating.

I am awaiting a little further feedback from both BG and the local independent company in regard to the slightly revised positioning and a potential need to get some, not related to the boiler operation, wiring sorted out first. There is a wiring conduit in the wall behind the boiler and the revised positioning and the venting may or may not require us to making a wiring change....... depending on the boiler chosen & it's venting position :thinking:
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A new thermostat may not be needed, the old one will still work, but a modern one has advantages and potential savings.

I don't know about the relocation part, but keeping it in the same place you can get a fixed price quote in minutes that may be a useful comparison https://www.heatable.co.uk/new-boilers/quote
 
Sangoma said:
A new thermostat may not be needed, the old one will still work, but a modern one has advantages and potential savings.

I don't know about the relocation part, but keeping it in the same place you can get a fixed price quote in minutes that may be a useful comparison https://www.heatable.co.uk/new-boilers/quote
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Hmmm! might have consider the thermostat question?

Re: (re) location ~ one aspect is how close the vent is to the kitchen window. It will rewire a plume to vent far enough above the window with whichever boiler we decide on.

I have just done the online quote and it came out @£3140 for the WB Greenstar 4000 15kW with the 'free' Hive mini thermostat & ProFlush.

This is more expensive that the independents quote for one option of the WB 15Ri that comes with 7 year gtee but is increased to 10 if they fit at extra cost of £144 a WB magnetic filter......we currently have such a filter in place as that was required as part the BG power flush we had about 3-4 years ago. NB the installation includes a chemical flush as a precursor to the installation. The price for the 15Ri is £2784
 
I think it still sounds a bit expensive at £2784 to be honest but having said that its knocking on winter and independents can turn down business they don't want
boilers are like roof's people wait till winter to have them fixed.
 
The chap who fit my boiler lives in Shere and was reasonable.
If you want his details let me know.
 
Sangoma said:
BG have always been expensive, with a short warranty, and at one time they tried to insist you had a maintenance contract (that was stopped a few years ago) so you were paying for the warranty!

Yes, they start to condense at a return temp of 57C usually, and some are only fully efficient at around 37C return temp.

I have my heating temp very low to help, but it also has additional benefits like avoiding wasting energy on overshoot, but having a TPI capable controller also helps to keep the temperature constant.

Many people, including some in the trade, will tell you that a plume of steam tells you in is in condensing mode !

My only complaint with the Worcester is that I can't hear if it is running or not :)
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I had a look at mine this morning when the heating came on and there's a fair bit of steam coming out. I've got the radiator setting on the boiler to a smidge under 3 which makes the radiators not to hot to hold onto. Do you reckon it should be lower?
 
gman said:
I had a look at mine this morning when the heating came on and there's a fair bit of steam coming out. I've got the radiator setting on the boiler to a smidge under 3 which makes the radiators not to hot to hold onto. Do you reckon it should be lower?
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Firstly is it a condensing boiler?
If it is, try it lower and see.
The radiators need to be warm enough to heat the house as quickly as you would like, but I have found it doesn't add much to the time to heat up having it lower, plus it won't overshoot so much.

The other thing is if the boiler is effectively too big for the house, it won't be able to run at a low enough flame for the return temperature to drop into the condensing range.

The only sure way to know is to refer to the specs, and measure the return temperature, however it is worth a try to turn it down.
 
Sangoma said:
Firstly is it a condensing boiler?
If it is, try it lower and see.
The radiators need to be warm enough to heat the house as quickly as you would like, but I have found it doesn't add much to the time to heat up having it lower, plus it won't overshoot so much.

The other thing is if the boiler is effectively too big for the house, it won't be able to run at a low enough flame for the return temperature to drop into the condensing range.

The only sure way to know is to refer to the specs, and measure the return temperature, however it is worth a try to turn it down.
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Cheers, it is a condensing one, a Greenstar 37CDI. How do I measure the return temperature?
 
gman said:
Cheers, it is a condensing one, a Greenstar 37CDI. How do I measure the return temperature?
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None too sure about "return temperature" but on page 13 of the manual it mentions the CH temperature is displayed on once the condensate chamber is full after a warm up start.

 
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Box Brownie said:
Yes, the cost to long term benefits ratio is in favour of "new" but not a combi as we like having an airing cupboard and the backup of the immersion heater that we are currently relying on right now ;)
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We have a combo and use a greenhouse tube heater on the airing cupboard. Haven't missed not having an immersion for 15+ years.
 
Box Brownie said:
None too sure about "return temperature" but on page 13 of the manual it mentions the CH temperature is displayed on once the condensate chamber is full after a warm up start.

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Aye there's a digital display showing temperature but I'm not sure if that's the return temperature? I'm rather novice when it comes to the workings of boilers!
 
gman said:
Aye there's a digital display showing temperature but I'm not sure if that's the return temperature? I'm rather novice when it comes to the workings of boilers!
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I had a look at that manual, and it doesn't say whether it is the set temperature, the actual feed temperature, or the return temperature. Thing to do would adjust the temperature knob and see if that number changes (it may not change immediately) that would at least prove or disprove on possibility, and I suspect that is what it is.

I use one of these, I bought lots of them several years ago to monitor equipment temperatures https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303585881285?var=602816466220

I just fixed the probe onto the return pipe with a cable tie, then a layer of cotton wadding around that, though I don't think it is totally necessary.

If you have a magnetic filter fitted, it will be in the return pipe, and will probably be in an accessible position to attach the probe.
 
Sangoma said:
I had a look at that manual, and it doesn't say whether it is the set temperature, the actual feed temperature, or the return temperature. Thing to do would adjust the temperature knob and see if that number changes (it may not change immediately) that would at least prove or disprove on possibility, and I suspect that is what it is.

I use one of these, I bought lots of them several years ago to monitor equipment temperatures https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303585881285?var=602816466220

I just fixed the probe onto the return pipe with a cable tie, then a layer of cotton wadding around that, though I don't think it is totally necessary.

If you have a magnetic filter fitted, it will be in the return pipe, and will probably be in an accessible position to attach the probe.
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Cheers, I've got a digital temperature gauge and probes for cooking so could use that. I'll have a look and see what the results are.
 
gman said:
Cheers, I've got a digital temperature gauge and probes for cooking so could use that. I'll have a look and see what the results are.
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That will work well.

Also worth mentioning, it is advisable to run the system hot once a month, and the DHW should be above 60C
 
Sangoma said:
That will work well.

Also worth mentioning, it is advisable to run the system hot once a month, and the DHW should be above 60C
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Legionnaires? I thought that was only for stagnant water such as water tanks?
 
gman said:
Legionnaires? I thought that was only for stagnant water such as water tanks?
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The new recommendations (new compared to long ago) is that it should be hot enough to prevent any chance of it in pipes too it seems.
ie schools have to check the hot water temp monthly, so it is probably worth doing.

I thought the same as you before :)
 
It’s just in case you have any dead legs( maybe a basin you don’t use very often) advice is to set hot water above 56. It’s heating flow temperature that’s shown on display and when balanced correctly there is a temp difference of 20deg.
 
Sangoma said:
The new recommendations (new compared to long ago) is that it should be hot enough to prevent any chance of it in pipes too it seems.
ie schools have to check the hot water temp monthly, so it is probably worth doing.

I thought the same as you before :)
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Before I crank it up and get the gas flowing, is this a recommendation from British Gas? lol
 
gman said:
Before I crank it up and get the gas flowing, is this a recommendation from British Gas? lol
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No, not like their putting a magnet on the water feed pipe saying it reduces limescale. :)

I have seen it mentioned in different places, and quite honestly, I think for the heating it is a waste of time as it is a sealed system except if you drain down or bleed.

For DHW systems it is a H&S requirement for schools and similar, so I assume that is for a good reason, and you have no option but to comply and show records of testing anyway.
(You then had to put a notice by the taps warning of "Hot Water" which made me laugh, as what else do you expect from the hot tap. Don't know if that is still a requirement though. 60C hurts, but will not cause scalding or permanent damage)

Just did a quick search and the first mention came up here https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67197871

Not that the BBC is any more reliable than BG's sales talk.
 
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