New compact camera decision? / sensor dust?

[Alcor]

Hello all, I'm considering buying a new relatively compact sized camera to use when out walking, mainly with the dogs in tow. The latter element tends to dictate quick snaps so at present I use my Samsung Galaxy S6 which despite its age and flagging battery does take some reasonably decent shots, for a 'phone. It would be nice to have something a little better and reasonably compact (more so than my Canon 700D kit) so have started looking at the possibilities. I've gazed a bit at a replacement phone but modern decent camera phones are slim but not exactly small and £300+ which is around my top end budget.

Looking at compact cameras I had pretty much settled on either a Panasonic TZ 70/80/90 or the Sony DSCHX90 which looked good with lots of useful features not least the very wide focal range and optical stabilisation. However, from comments I've read, the closed system allied to the big zoom seem to create an internal dust issue with a significant chance of the sensor being fouled necessitating a service. So, first question is, just how prevalent a problem is this? When I buy something like a new camera I hope I can forget about reliability issues for a good few years.

Looking at other alternatives I found that I could buy a good used Panasonic DMC G6 (with much larger sensor) and a 12-32mm lens (from one of the the usual reliable sources) for well within my budget. OK, not the wide focal range and certainly bigger than a TZ90 but a little smaller than my Canon 700D and to my surprise quite a lot lighter, 340gm vs 580 gm body. It would give future lens expansion possibilities too, but in a sense its also leading away from my initial imagined brief of something smaller. Going down this avenue made me think I could just buy a 24mm Pancake lens for the 700D. However all that said second question, is the G6+ lens a good optically sound option?

I'd appreciate useful comments and advice or other suggestions about this. Thanks.

 

[woof woof]

This is something that worries me but non of the compact cameras I've ever had have suffered contamination including a Panasonic TZ100 which has a 25-250mm zoom lens, I've had that for a few years now and it's still clean.

I recently bought a TZ70 off evil bay and when it arrived it was well used and scruffy and looked to have had a busy life and whilst that didn't matter to me some controls were intermittent so it went back, but the sensor was actually clean. I also bought a Panasonic LF1 and that had three blobs of contamination that showed up in real world pictures (rather than just test pictures) so that went back. I bought that camera from a company which offers various compact camera repairs so it's possible that the contamination got on the sensor while they had it apart rather than in normal use.

It's a worry (for me) but I'd risk it for something relatively cheap to reasonably priced but not for something costing into the high hundreds. If buying from a big name dealer maybe you could buy an extended warranty if that doesn't add too much to the cost and assuming sensor contamination would be covered?

Hope that helps.

 

[GreenNinja67]

Purely from a performance point the G6 is going to be way better than a compact with a smaller sensor.

My G3 is infrared converted but with the same sensor and will be great as a walkabout camera. And the 12-32 lens will cover a full frame equivalent of 24 - 64 which should be enough for most things.

I'd go for the M43 option.

 

[woof woof]

I've been with MFT since the GF1 but generally prefer the RF style cameras. I have a GX80 and a GX9.

Mini SLR or RF design I personally wouldn't go for anything that doesn't have the redesigned shutter mechanism because of the risk of shutter shock with some lenses. Sadly the G6 afaik can be afflicted by the dreaded shutter shock, I think the new shutter went into cameras after the G7. I also wouldn't touch the 12-32mm as that lens doesn't have a focus ring and if you want to manually focus I believe you do so via a slider on the back screen and as I do manually focus sometimes (sometimes AF will focus on the wrong thing) that's not for me. For people who exclusively AF or don't mind focusing by manipulating a control on the back screen it's an option but I'd much prefer the more conventionally built 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 Mega OIS. There seem to be a lot of these lenses with very similar descriptions but the one I now have is the tiny one. Like this...

Panasonic 14-42 mm/F 3.5-5.6 II G VARIO ASPH OIS H-FS1442A 14 mm-42 mm lens (micro four thirds connection, true): Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Shop Panasonic 14-42 mm/F 3.5-5.6 II G VARIO ASPH OIS H-FS1442A 14 mm-42 mm lens (micro four thirds connection, true). Free delivery and returns on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

I find this lens to be useable from wide open which is indeed how I use it.

Even a 1" sensor compact wont match the ultimate image quality you'll get from MFT but for whole pictures viewed normally they and even tiny sensor equipped compact cameras are worth looking at because they are small and portable and have flexible long range zooms.

 

[Alcor]

This is something that worries me but non of the compact cameras I've ever had have suffered contamination including a Panasonic TZ100 which has a 25-250mm zoom lens, I've had that for a few years now and it's still clean.

I recently bought a TZ70 off evil bay and when it arrived it was well used and scruffy and looked to have had a busy life and whilst that didn't matter to me some controls were intermittent so it went back, but the sensor was actually clean. I also bought a Panasonic LF1 and that had three blobs of contamination that showed up in real world pictures (rather than just test pictures) so that went back. I bought that camera from a company which offers various compact camera repairs so it's possible that the contamination got on the sensor while they had it apart rather than in normal use.

It's a worry (for me) but I'd risk it for something relatively cheap to reasonably priced but not for something costing into the high hundreds. If buying from a big name dealer maybe you could buy an extended warranty if that doesn't add too much to the cost and assuming sensor contamination would be covered?

Hope that helps.

Thanks Alan, looking at Panasonic warranty on line it seems that a new camera is covered for just one year, but CCDs are covered for two. Panasonic in USA seem to offer a 3 year extended warranty but I can't find anything regarding UK. There is also much about EU warranty which I would imagine does not apply here now! My experience with cameras and the like over the years is one of outstanding reliability, hence I was concerned at the sensor dust issue as commented elsewhere. The TZ70 is tempting as its available at under £200 now.

 

[Alcor]

I've been with MFT since the GF1 but generally prefer the RF style cameras. I have a GX80 and a GX9.

Mini SLR or RF design I personally wouldn't go for anything that doesn't have the redesigned shutter mechanism because of the risk of shutter shock with some lenses. Sadly the G6 afaik can be afflicted by the dreaded shutter shock, I think the new shutter went into cameras after the G7. I also wouldn't touch the 12-32mm as that lens doesn't have a focus ring and if you want to manually focus I believe you do so via a slider on the back screen and as I do manually focus sometimes (sometimes AF will focus on the wrong thing) that's not for me. For people who exclusively AF or don't mind focusing by manipulating a control on the back screen it's an option but I'd much prefer the more conventionally built 14-42mm f3.5-5.6 Mega OIS. There seem to be a lot of these lenses with very similar descriptions but the one I now have is the tiny one. Like this...

Panasonic 14-42 mm/F 3.5-5.6 II G VARIO ASPH OIS H-FS1442A 14 mm-42 mm lens (micro four thirds connection, true): Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Shop Panasonic 14-42 mm/F 3.5-5.6 II G VARIO ASPH OIS H-FS1442A 14 mm-42 mm lens (micro four thirds connection, true). Free delivery and returns on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

I find this lens to be useable from wide open which is indeed how I use it.

Even a 1" sensor compact wont match the ultimate image quality you'll get from MFT but for whole pictures viewed normally they and even tiny sensor equipped compact cameras are worth looking at because they are small and portable and have flexible long range zooms.

Thanks again Alan re info about G6 and G7. A used G7 would stretch the budget. I'd looked at the standard 14-42 which is a useful range but preferred the wider range of the 12-32 but its all pretty academic at the moment. Still, its good to have a learned experienced opinion.

 

[woof woof]

Just for me... Where did you see a TZ70 under £200?

 

[realspeed]

i recently purchased a Panasonic DC-TZ95 and have to say there are really too many features and settings.Not only the top dial but also the menu I do find a bit confusing. I tend to actually use it in auto mode but having said that the picture quality is good. I do like is the panning feature which takes several shots and auto stitches together.

Hope the admin don't mind me mentioning

I have also "splashed the cash" and purchased a camcorder which is brilliant I have to say. does video and stills . OK bit more expensive but the image stablisation is actually amazing especially if going walking. It is the Sony FDR-AX53 well worth checking out. just a heads up. My 10 year old Panasonic HC-X900M was beginning to show its age with parts starting to stick so did a P/X

 

[4wd]

I did advise someone [not here] to consider the TZ95 and he got one used under £200 - but I think he is also befuddled by all the modes and isn't using it much.
If I had it it would be shooting RAW in manual and video.
I had an Olympus C765 did get a big spot of dust inside and that had a relatively big zoom drawing air in and out presumably.
I managed to dislodge it to the side by tapping it on a table often dust specks are initially held in place by static charge as much as anything.

Since then had a Canon S200 S100, then Rx100v which haven't had any problems despite being carried in mucky pockets and used in dusty environments quite often.

 

[Alcor]

Just for me... Where did you see a TZ70 under £200?

On Amazon. When I first bookmarked it, it was £189.99 but now its been updated to £199.99, funny how that happens, but its still under £200, just.

 

[garryknight]

I recently got my second TZ70 for £80 from one of those phone repair shops that also take in old cameras. The first one stopped working because of "lens error", which I assumed to be sand stuck in the lens. I bought the old one new from somewhere like John Lewis and I never had any problem with the sensor. Likewise, the sensor on the new second-hand one seems fine, with no spots appearing in sky shots, and so on. I also had a Sony HX90V, bought from John Lewis. This stopped working because I put a wrist strap on it and then put it in a belt pouch; I didn't realise that the toggle on the wrist strap was pushing on the d-pad and so it stopped responding. So, a couple of life lessons.

The thing about this type of compact superzoom camera is that they have sensors that are so small that the image quality is affected. You notice this as soon as you zoom to 100%, and it looks like smearing. As long as you don't pixel-peep, you'd probably be happy with it. The TZ70 and the HX90V are about the same when it comes to zooming, size, weight, and convenience, and the image quality of both is comparable.

There's one camera I'd recommend as it's inexpensive but has a good lens. It's the Fuji X10 (or X20, or X30). I recently got an X30 for under £300 and I was surprised at how good the image quality is compared to other compact cameras I've owned. It goes from 28mm to 112mm, so it's no superzoom, but it also doesn't have the 'smearing'. It is bigger and heavier than the two superzoom, but only about the equivalent of a Leica compact.

 

[MartynK]

The Panasonic TZ series are worth considering. My wife has a TZ9 (cross between the TZ8 and 10, made for Currys) which she bought ten years ago. It stays on the so called Intelligent Auto mode most of the time, but takes remarkably good 'snaps' and it slips into a pocket. We share it as a travel camera too. I imagine the newer models offer more?

 

[woof woof]

It's difficult for me to understand the comments about these cameras having too many features or being too complicated. I just use them the same as I would any other camera, in aperture priority and switching to manual when the camera selects too slow a shutter speed and always with auto ISO set to go to the maximum allowed when required and set to save raw. Used like that once the various buttons and dials have been programmed (or maybe just don't bother) the myriad of options and features which may frighten some people go just about completely unnoticed by me.

 

[ancient_mariner]

My wife had a TZ70 (IIRC) for a couple of years but image quality was always disappointing. We replaced it with an Olympus E-M10 and 14-42 compact zoom which was just a tiny bit bigger, and the improvement in image quality was huge. Colours were more natural, scenes more detailed, skin looked nicer.

 

[woof woof]

On Amazon. When I first bookmarked it, it was £189.99 but now its been updated to £199.99, funny how that happens, but its still under £200, just.

Ah yes, I see. Me and Mrs WW were in Currys the other day and I spotted them for sale for just over £200, something like £215 or so. I have to say I was quite impressed with the image quality of the one I had briefly and sent back as it had intermittent controls. At 100% they do look bad but we have to remember that's like looking at a massive picture very close up. For normal real world looking at pictures they should be fine.

 

[sphexx]

Thanks Alan, looking at Panasonic warranty on line it seems that a new camera is covered for just one year, but CCDs are covered for two. Panasonic in USA seem to offer a 3 year extended warranty but I can't find anything regarding UK. There is also much about EU warranty which I would imagine does not apply here now! My experience with cameras and the like over the years is one of outstanding reliability, hence I was concerned at the sensor dust issue as commented elsewhere. The TZ70 is tempting as its available at under £200 now.

Panasonichave offered 3 year warranties sometimes in U.K. , usually as promotions. The original G1 ( the first m43 camera) was offered with 3 year warranty.

 

[realspeed]

It's difficult for me to understand the comments about these cameras having too many features or being too complicated. I just use them the same as I would any other camera, in aperture priority and switching to manual when the camera selects too slow a shutter speed and always with auto ISO set to go to the maximum allowed when required and set to save raw. Used like that once the various buttons and dials have been programmed (or maybe just don't bother) the myriad of options and features which may frighten some people go just about completely unnoticed by me.

If you actually got your hands on one you would understand. apart from 3 customs settings . there are 63 main headings alone in just manual mode not counting sub headings in the menu. Then multiply that by the 9 settings on the top of the camera and you may be confused as well

 

[woof woof]

If you actually got your hands on one you would understand. apart from 3 customs settings . there are 63 main headings alone in just manual mode not counting sub headings in the menu. Then multiply that by the 9 settings on the top of the camera and you may be confused as well

I've had my hands on a few compacts. I've owned a couple of Panasonic LXx and an LF1, I briefly had a TZ70 which I found to be a doddle to set up and use as I currently have a TZ100 so I'm not talking from a position of absolute ignorance about potentially complex compact cameras. Plus I have an ancient Canon compact, two Panasonic MFT cameras and a Sony A7.

Cameras do have a lot of settings and options and the choices can look intimidating these days but once you've set the camera up how you want ignoring the stuff you don't need or is taken care of with a button or a dial is easy and diving into the menu becomes a rarity. I genuinely only enter the menu for a few things, setting the clock twice a year or when on holiday, selecting or deselecting focus auto magnification because my preference varies depending upon the lens (and this isn't an issue for fixed lens compacts anyway,) and to format the card and that's honestly it, for me anyway. I normally use aperture and manual mode with one focus point but switch to custom settings with aperture or manual mode plus wide area and eye/face detect for people. That covers everything I want. I'm not saying it's childs play as learning and setting up a new camera can take a while but once you've waded through everything things should be quite simple really and you should be able to avoid the confusing 63 headings until or if you hit an application that needs something in there.

You can even use these compact cameras old style by pre-setting the shutter speed, aperture and focus distance and shoot zone/hyperfocal. That way fast action shots aren't hampered by slower focus systems and the small format helps with depth.

 

[sphexx]

I've had my hands on a few compacts. I've owned a couple of Panasonic LXx and an LF1, I briefly had a TZ70 which I found to be a doddle to set up and use as I currently have a TZ100 so I'm not talking from a position of absolute ignorance about potentially complex compact cameras. Plus I have an ancient Canon compact, two Panasonic MFT cameras and a Sony A7.

Cameras do have a lot of settings and options and the choices can look intimidating these days but once you've set the camera up how you want ignoring the stuff you don't need or is taken care of with a button or a dial is easy and diving into the menu becomes a rarity. I genuinely only enter the menu for a few things, setting the clock twice a year or when on holiday, selecting or deselecting focus auto magnification because my preference varies depending upon the lens (and this isn't an issue for fixed lens compacts anyway,) and to format the card and that's honestly it, for me anyway. I normally use aperture and manual mode with one focus point but switch to custom settings with aperture or manual mode plus wide area and eye/face detect for people. That covers everything I want. I'm not saying it's childs play as learning and setting up a new camera can take a while but once you've waded through everything things should be quite simple really and you should be able to avoid the confusing 63 headings until or if you hit an application that needs something in there.

You can even use these compact cameras old style by pre-setting the shutter speed, aperture and focus distance and shoot zone/hyperfocal. That way fast action shots aren't hampered by slower focus systems and the small format helps with depth.

True, the only problem I have is that sometimes it’s easy to press a button accidentally and one advantage of many Fuji cameras is that you can lock several buttons with a long press of the “OK”.

 

[Mintchocs]

My personal viewpoint is to get the smallest m4/3 kit unless even that size is going to make you leave it behind. Other than that get a good quality compact with a RAW facility preferably one with a one inch sensor. ( early models of mirrorless cameras are slow at tracking )

 

[Alcor]

My personal viewpoint is to get the smallest m4/3 kit unless even that size is going to make you leave it behind. Other than that get a good quality compact with a RAW facility preferably one with a one inch sensor. ( early models of mirrorless cameras are slow at tracking )

Thanks for input. I'm still exploring the MFT option with the larger sensor being significant but size is also important. As you say, if it ends up in the nag with the 700D there's no point
On the compact side I found that UKDigital are offering a 5 year extended warranty with labour covered for three years so a TZ80/90 looks a decent prospect. Going to make my mind up over the weekend and go from there.

 

[woof woof]

The ideal for me and what I take on holiday or for a day out is a quality camera with a wide aperture prime (in my case a Sony A7 with a 35mm f2.8) and a compact camera with a good range zoom (in my case a Panasonic TZ100) for the wider and longer shots and for occasions when even a relatively small mirrorless camera is too intrusive or attention grabbing.

 

[woof woof]

Thanks for input. I'm still exploring the MFT option with the larger sensor being significant but size is also important. As you say, if it ends up in the nag with the 700D there's no point
On the compact side I found that UKDigital are offering a 5 year extended warranty with labour covered for three years so a TZ80/90 looks a decent prospect. Going to make my mind up over the weekend and go from there.

Maybe take a look at the Panasonic GX80. There are a couple of things I'd criticise, the EVF is relatively poor but still perfectly useable and it lacks the ability to dial in exposure compensation in manual mode. The more expensive GX9 does allow this though.

The thing with these MFT cameras is that you get better IQ than you'd get from a 1" compact but the bodies are bigger and once you start looking for lenses with longer zoom ranges the size increases considerably over a genuine compact.

 

[Alcor]

I've spent a lot of time reading stuff on line and weighing up the options. In doing so I think I've become guilty of moving my own goal posts here. By that I mean I've ruled out the small sensor compacts and have looked to MFT cameras. I pondered a while over a Canon M3 as with the adapter I could use my EOS system lenses but that would really get me nowhere in terms of keeping things lighter, plus the M3 and EF(s) lenses are not that good AF wise. This brings me I think to a choice between the Pan' GX80 and the Oly' OM 10 ii ,currently thinking more (just) GX80, paired with a 14-42. There seems to be quite some choice of such lenses between Panasonic and Olympus. The Lumix G 14-42 f3.5-5.6 asph mega ois II looks decent, small and light, but I'd appreciate any other suggestions. Thanks for all the responses.

 

[woof woof]

I have that lens and it is tiny and IMO perfectly useable wide open which is how I use it only stopping down occasionally. Another to maybe think about is the Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8 which is a lump bigger and more expensive but begins to give the sort of DoF look you'd get from FF and a f3.5-5.6 lens. Another that I've never tried but seems to have a following is the 12-60mm. Actually there are two version of that, a f3.5-5.6 and a more expensive f2.8-4. These are again much bigger and more expensive than that tiny 14-42mm.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

To my way of thinking: the very best camera in the world is the one you have with you when the picture happens.

I've used several of the Panasonic miniatures and only one ever failed on me: a FX55 that I'd used for several years and which had more than paid for itself in terms of pleasing images. Among the Travel Zooms, I've used the TZ4, TZ40 and TZ70. All have provided entirely acceptable results.

I also use Panasonic M43 cameras and I've never had reason to complain about any of them. I advise against over thinking this. Just get the camera which suits you because there are very few lemons out there.

 

[Alcor]

I have that lens and it is tiny and IMO perfectly useable wide open which is how I use it only stopping down occasionally. Another to maybe think about is the Panasonic 12-35mm f2.8 which is a lump bigger and more expensive but begins to give the sort of DoF look you'd get from FF and a f3.5-5.6 lens. Another that I've never tried but seems to have a following is the 12-60mm. Actually there are two version of that, a f3.5-5.6 and a more expensive f2.8-4. These are again much bigger and more expensive than that tiny 14-42mm.

I had considered the 12-60, a useful range, especially at the wide end but although not big in dslr lens terms, in this context it is significantly bigger/heavier than the 14-42. The 12-35 is pricewise (even MPB figures) way out of my budget so its looking like the Pan 14-42 ois ii is the most likely candidate.

 

[woof woof]

For good light pictures I think that teeny tiny lens is a good and flexible choice and you can always get a bit of DoF control by using the lens wide open and reducing the camera to subject distance.

 

[AMcUK]

This brings me I think to a choice between the Pan' GX80 and the Oly' OM 10 ii ,currently thinking more (just) GX80, paired with a 14-42. There seems to be quite some choice of such lenses between Panasonic and Olympus. The Lumix G 14-42 f3.5-5.6 asph mega ois II looks decent, small and light, but I'd appreciate any other suggestions. Thanks for all the responses.

I use an OM-D E-M10ii as my main camera. I initially used it with the Olympus 14-42mm EZ lens which is a motorised pancake.
It's competent and I've taken lot of good pictures with it, the only minor drawback is the motorised zoom means you have to choose between a fast zoom and potentially inaccurate framing or slower for more accuracy. My E-PL5 came with the Olympus 14-42mm II R which is a manual zoom and "collapses" - it's cheaper and optically I don't think there's much to tell between them.
There are a wide variety of cheap light lenses in the system depending on what you're planning on shooting.
I eventually bought the heavier and more expensive 12-40 PRO lens. It's a beast on the little body but I just put the strap over one shoulder and I can carry it all day without worrying about it.
If the weather is less than pleasant or it looks a bit pickpockety then under my open jacket.

I can't comment on the Panasonic zooms but my f1.7 25mm is a lovely lens and cheap
The GX80 is stabilised already so if the lens and body co-operate that might edge it for the Panasonic body and lens combo?

I'd guess the rangefinder GX80 body is slightly more pocketable as it doesn't have the EVF hump - the E-M10ii looks to be a little bit cheaper.
I don't think you'll go wrong with either.